![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Thanks for all the feedback though
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum
You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...esd wrote:LOGISTICSNow I use the Logistics Software, but do not allow it to learn. this keeps it free, and identical to the SDS. In the diagrams, the arrows represent SDS deliveries. For the Solar Power Plants I have one ship supplying two or three factories.
No, I do not allow them to learn. They need the Trading Extension to be able to access the training courses. I don't give their ships one.fchopin wrote:You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...
The closer, the shorter the travel time. This ultimately helps the loop run more efficiently. I build my loops on a three-dimensional grid, on multiples of ten. For example, the SPP at 10x10x0, the Crystal Fab at 10x10x10, the Cattle Ranch at 20x10x0 and the Cahoona Bakery at 20x10x10. The only exceptions are the mines, which go on an asteroid.D_Zorro wrote:Anyway when building these double power loops do you actually build close to eachother or are they spreaded out in game ???
DZorro,
Good thinking.esd wrote:No, I do not allow them to learn. They need the Trading Extension to be able to access the training courses. I don't give their ships one.fchopin wrote:You mean you do allow them to learn but you do not use the advansed fanctions...
I give up! No I don't!DeathAndPain wrote:Psst... chovy... I never said that such a thing cannot be done. I just pointed out that and why it is not reasonable to do it (unless you want to do it just for the beauty of having it).chovy wrote:psst. DeathandPain...esd said "...providing a product that was made using only your materials... "
You only have to if one of your factories has too little money to operate with. If you set them all up properly, you will never have to inject any money. The reason is that all of your factories in an open loop are making positive profit (unlike the closed loop where visible profit only occurs at the very end, or "outlet" of the loop), so money shortages can only be temporary.chovy wrote:Adding AI to a closed loop doesn't make sense to me as I dont want to have to worry about injecting money into a closed, moneyless loop.
You could also use SMS (Station Management Suite) software do define a Low Level water mark for a given station. Like the BPH pilot, you will receive a message that your Fabs operating capitol has fallen below your pre-defined level.DeathAndPain wrote:If you are using the BPH (logistics) software, you will be sure never to miss when a factory runs out of money, because your BPH pilot will send you a message that he wants his money.
If you read my post I don't "watch my account going up", I use the SMS log to check how much my factories earn. So I did with the two final fabs in my loops. Besides before that I'd already done my calculations.DeathAndPain wrote:Or so you believe. I could now say that my profit is even larger. Then you would say that your profit is even larger than what I said, and so on... but such a discussion is fruitless. Right now you have explained mathematics against you, NovaCorp. If you think that I am wrong, then you will have to point out why. Just watching your bank account going up and not knowing how fast it would have gone up if your loops had been open will not do.NavaCorp wrote:Once recovered, your investment is pure huge profit. I wrote above that my two loops recovered fastly the investment I did.
All my factories (apart closed loops, of course) can keep 400.000 for themseves.As for the credit shortage, that is only a matter of properly setting the high-water-mark in the Auto-transfer-money-to-player-account command. Your factories will require a certain amount of money to work with, that is correct. Most factories will do with 100000 credits or even less. Crystal Fabs are somewhat more demanding.
In my PE (1 trading station + 19 factories) the NPC traffic it's so high that sometimes it causes FPS problems (and my PC is quite powerful) due the high number of TS of all races running to my factories (apart Khaak and XenonWait a minute... what did you just say:PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stationsNavaCorp wrote:open loops (I have one in PE)
As NavaCorp says, the trading can be fine. However, that may not necessarily be as secure and efficient as when the potential NPC producers/customers are sitting next to player fabs. A closed loop is likely to have jumps set to 0, and minimal transportation distance is good for open loops, too.DeathAndPain wrote:Wait a minute... what did you just say:PE like in "Presidents End"? You set up a loop that is designed to intensely trade with NPC stations and you place it into the only sector where there are no NPC stationsNavaCorp wrote:open loops (I have one in PE)
And that is the beauty of it. The closed loop (well done esd, clear guide) is cheap, secure and simple. The open loop has higher investment, potentially higher running cost, higher risk, higher complexity and higher profitsss.DeathAndPain wrote:Not exactly. I set up an ... open loop.You did notice that I pointed out that no stations are missing in the open loop, did you
For your closed loop, you would have to set up all stations that you need in order to produce your 1MW shield, including the most basic stuff like an spp and a cattle ranch. Well, I do just the same. So I do not draw in more from the NPC, because for every resource that one of my stations buys from an NPC station, another of my stations is selling exactly that resource back to another NPC station. The "foreign trade balance" is zero! You could also say that any shortage one of my station causes by buying a NPC resource is remedied by another of my stations selling exactly that resource back to a NPC station that needs it (so that this NPC station no longer needs to buy it from the NPC source where I bought my stuff from).
Unfortunatly this doesn't work with CLS. When you remove the trade extension, the pilot's level goes back from courier to assistant. It doesn't keep its levels.@esd: I've had a sudden thought about your loop.
You could train up the CLS in the SPP to the second level. The cost is so minimal and it comes out of the player account, it doesn't affect the loop. Then after training the pilot to the second level, remove the Trading extension so they can't learn any further... that way you'll have one single low cost ship supplying the SPP loop with energy. Of course this might need adjustment for a double/product loop.what do yahs think?
esd wrote:Now I use the Logistics Software, but do not allow it to learn. this keeps it free, and identical to the SDS.
Yes. You calculated how much profit your closed loop would make. But from what you wrote, I see no indication that you actually calculated the profit an open loop would have given you and compared the two outcomes.NavaCorp wrote:If you read my post I don't "watch my account going up", I use the SMS log to check how much my factories earn. So I did with the two final fabs in my loops. Besides before that I'd already done my calculations.
The fact that the AI goes through the hassle to travel to your system does not mean that it is wise to place the open loop into a system without NPC stations that could trade with you easier due to less distance. I suppose the main reason while freighters are flocking for your open loop from all directions is that the NPC economy itself is messy and in recession, so they need your stations to get what they need.NavaCorp wrote:In my PE (1 trading station + 19 factories) the NPC traffic it's so high that sometimes it causes FPS problems (and my PC is quite powerful) due the high number of TS of all races running to my factories (apart Khaak and Xenon Mr. Green ).
It is correct that you may end up needing such stopgap fabs in order to avoid production pauses in your open loop. However, it is not correct that your stopgap fabs cannot sell for the max.jlehtone wrote:As for NPC fabs consuming all your products and not producing the same ware enough, well that is an inbalance of the NPC economy. Thus, to make open loop reliable is to fix the holes of the NPC production lines. Babysitting. But those extra 'stopgap' fabs cannot sell for more than the same type 'in the loop'. That would be unnecessary inbalance. Still making money, though.
Nope. SPPs use crystals, to be more precise, which are made from silicon and energy. Most other factories use neither crystals nor silicon (e.g. cattle ranches). They indirectly depend on it as they all require e-cells though.jlehtone wrote:There is only one limit to the size of the empire and that is the sum of the yield of the silicon and ore asteroids. Every fab, except NPC SPPs (and they do it too as secondary), uses silicon.
True, it is not possible to sell to Trade Dock actively at any other than average price. Selling at max works only passively. That also implies that the fabs 'in the loop' sell passively to the Trade Dock at max price and thus completes the proof that the 'stopgaps' cannot sell for moreDeathAndPain wrote:It is correct that you may end up needing such stopgap fabs in order to avoid production pauses in your open loop. However, it is not correct that your stopgap fabs cannot sell for the max. ... The trading stations buy and burn so much of those that they are often sitting at zero stocks although there is decent production nearby. However, this means that your stopgap fabs can sell all their output at max price and do not even need any freighters to sell them, as the trading stations will struggle for the privilege to get them from you for max price.I wrote:Babysitting. But those extra 'stopgap' fabs cannot sell for more than the same type 'in the loop'.
Every station (save SPP, Shipyards, and Trade/EQ Docks) requires energy. Therefore, the maximal number of those stations is limited by the energy production. Energy production is the sum of NPC SPPs' and player SPPs' production. The number of NPC SPPs is fixed (or decreased by gunnery practice). The number of player SPPs is limited by crystal production, which in turn is limited by silicon production. The practical maxima of player SPPs is less than the theoretical, since some of the desirable high end products require silicon too. Anyways, energy is produced from silicon. For the basic SPP loop of (SiMine, Bio, Food, Xtal Fab, SPP) the only real requirement is the silicon asteroid.DeathAndPain wrote:Nope. SPPs use crystals, to be more precise, which are made from silicon and energy. Most other factories use neither crystals nor silicon (e.g. cattle ranches). They indirectly depend on it as they all require e-cells though.I wrote:There is only one limit to the size of the empire and that is the sum of the yield of the silicon and ore asteroids. Every fab, except NPC SPPs (and they do it too as secondary), uses silicon.