150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

General discussion about X³: Farnham's Legacy.

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Ketraar
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Ketraar » Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43

First of all let me say, I like the debate about the feature and so far it has been interesting to read everyone's take on it. It was clear that this feature would be the one that would have the most "debate", but it sits at the very core of what X3FL is about, at least for me.

X3FL is indeed an X games and there is always the ones that dont really like change that much and I understand that, having some new bits but still be able to do your thing. Personally I find this is lacking, sometimes we should try new things or old ideas. Like this one. Some one wrote, make it optional (I'm sure CBJ is loving this) and we did, we made it so people can modify the system very easily, to either shut if off completely or adjust its impact as they like, Cycrow made sure of that.

Even though it was clear what the goal is, often many things only become apparent AFTER the fact and sure now with the added experience and feedback, there are many tweaks that could be made, even larger ones. But the overall function does pretty much what is expected and one of the things its supposed to do is not allow complacency. We dont need to agree, but I find it very illogical to sell a story of doom and loom and then nothing happens.

This was the first take at a new system, I'm sure the second iteration (whoever makes it) will be better, that is usually how things go. But you wont make omelettes without breaking a few eggs.

Still hope people find enjoyment with it and am looking for long and civil debates about it for months to come. For those that dislike it, I'm sure there are modified options.

MFG

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Ramdat » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 00:35

Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43
X3FL is indeed an X games and there is always the ones that dont really like change that much and I understand that, having some new bits but still be able to do your thing. Personally I find this is lacking, sometimes we should try new things or old ideas.

Even though it was clear what the goal is, often many things only become apparent AFTER the fact and sure now with the added experience and feedback, there are many tweaks that could be made, even larger ones. But the overall function does pretty much what is expected and one of the things its supposed to do is not allow complacency. We dont need to agree, but I find it very illogical to sell a story of doom and loom and then nothing happens.
It was the right choice to try something new. You can't make progress if you always play it safe. The concept is good, it just has some rough edges.
Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43
This was the first take at a new system, I'm sure the second iteration (whoever makes it) will be better, that is usually how things go.
Did you make this iteration?
Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43
For those that dislike it, I'm sure there are modified options.
Some players cannot accept this implementation as it requires the game to be modified, which disables Steam achievements. These achievements are important to these players. This is presumably why players have suggested it be an official option in the settings, as mods already exist for the same purpose.

The in-game achievement tracking is a nice addition, but it is not a replacement for Steam. Players on the forum and subreddit have stated that these restrictions are the only reason they have not yet changed the system to make it more fun for them. This includes me, as I have an issue with the current implementation of the HQ queue speed, but did not switch to modded because of these achievement restrictions. I have since found a way around the restriction, so I will switch to modded when 1.2 is stable. Though, it is unfortunate that it is necessary to circumvent restrictions for a singleplayer sandbox game.

However, it is commendable to allow variables such as the HQ speed and dynamic reputation system to be easily changed to suit the player.

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Erqco » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 00:57

Like always, I love a lot of the changes (I am not afraid of changes) in this game, I will say everything but the notoriety system in this state. I am really grateful of the work done in this old engine that I love.

I think that the notoriety system could work if is possible to make a few changes that make less damaging for the player. Some ideas around are great.

I don't understand that kill Xenon can make any faction upset, It will give more freedom to kill Xenon without or with minimal consequences.

If this new notoriety system can somehow, keep a line with the real power of the player, I think that it could be better, when you start a new game you are nothing comparatively with other powers, those powers shouldn't take to much time thinking what you do or you don't do, at the other end when you become a real power, make them more respectful of the player... or more aggressive.

Somehow I think that the steps in notoriety for each rank could be softened a little, to make more difficult those swings when you are close to the middle and make the swings easier in the top. If you make a mission, been your rank in the middle negative and it give you 3000 points of notoriety, can make make you jump 7 ranks ( I am playing with the numbers, I don't know if they are real), when you are in the top those 3000 points do nothing. It is way too easy (In the middle of the ranks) to star a war for a simple taxi mission.
Also the opposite can work too, that the points for a mission are in a direct relation to the player power.

It is a game, a sand box one mostly, keeping options open for the player, I think that is good, adding limits, grinding, funneling the game in a direction will limit the way that it can be enjoyed for a larger number of players.


Thanks again.
Last edited by Erqco on Tue, 15. Jun 21, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Snafu_X3 » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 01:51

Erqco wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 00:57
I don't understand that kill Xenon can make any faction upset, It will give more freedom to kill Xenon without or with minimal consequences.

If this new notoriety system can somehow, keep a line with the real power of the player, I think that it could be better, when you start a new game you are nothing comparatively with other powers, those powers shouldn't take to much time thinking what you do or you don't do, at the other end when you become a real power, make them more respectful of the player... or more aggressive.
I agree v much with these points; hopefully they'll be possible for implementation/integration!
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by ExE22 » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 02:22

I've debated the dynamic relations system a lot with a friend of mine since the game was released and while we disagree on the system (he thoroughly dislikes it) I can see why it doesn't suit some. An "official" option to turn it off might be a good solution but honestly I feel like those who'd use it would miss out on the "better" experience (subjective as that may be)

After about 180 hours I'd say I like this new approach to faction-relations a lot, it's made me play the game in a way I've never played X-series games before. I can't have maxed-out relationships with everyone so I need to plan ahead when building my infrastructure and fleets and it adds a whole different dimension to it that I've never been forced to consider before.

* Where do I build my infrastructure, if I plan on having stable relations with one faction then that's fine but if I plan on switching between them then I need to set up in unclaimed / pirate space?
* How do I get the blueprints necessary for the stations, do I have to steal them or can I dedicate some time to get friendly enough with a faction to buy the most probable blueprints from them?
* Can I use station-upgrades to reduce the strain on my HQ construction queues, build a single station and upgrade it instead of multiple stations?
* How do I get access to lasers/shields/missiles that I don't have the notoriety for, do I steal it with a cargo-bay hacker or set up my own production-lines to become self-sufficient on them?
* Where do I get the equipment I can't buy, do I steal or buy it with agents or capture ships to strip them for it?
* Do I have the basic-resources necessary to sustain myself if I can't buy them from a faction?
* Can I keep my fleets going through captured or reversed-engineered and home-made ships?
* Can I do X (missions, capture/attack ships etc.) without endangering my relations with the faction that currently hosts my infrastructure to the point where they'd start attacking it?

There are only a few things I miss at the moment that would make this system perfect for my tastes:
* A way to scale up ship/station production to suit the "self-sufficient" approach at the moment it's difficult to do more than the most limited production and cannot be a proper replacement for the loss of entire factions.
* A more proactive approach from the factions that dislike you instead of combat only occurring if you happen to cross paths with them. I'd like to see groups of hostile ships start going after you on your home-territory if your relations drop far enough, M7/M2 task forces complete with escorts jumping in to try and target your infrastructure etc. (might already be a thing for all I know but if so I have been spared it so far).

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by RegisterMe » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 02:37

Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43
First of all let me say, I like the debate about the feature and so far it has been interesting to read everyone's take on it. It was clear that this feature would be the one that would have the most "debate", but it sits at the very core of what X3FL is about, at least for me.

X3FL is indeed an X games and there is always the ones that dont really like change that much and I understand that, having some new bits but still be able to do your thing. Personally I find this is lacking, sometimes we should try new things or old ideas. Like this one. Some one wrote, make it optional (I'm sure CBJ is loving this) and we did, we made it so people can modify the system very easily, to either shut if off completely or adjust its impact as they like, Cycrow made sure of that.

Even though it was clear what the goal is, often many things only become apparent AFTER the fact and sure now with the added experience and feedback, there are many tweaks that could be made, even larger ones. But the overall function does pretty much what is expected and one of the things its supposed to do is not allow complacency. We dont need to agree, but I find it very illogical to sell a story of doom and loom and then nothing happens.

This was the first take at a new system, I'm sure the second iteration (whoever makes it) will be better, that is usually how things go. But you wont make omelettes without breaking a few eggs.

Still hope people find enjoyment with it and am looking for long and civil debates about it for months to come. For those that dislike it, I'm sure there are modified options.

MFG

Ketraar
First of all let me say that, for me, X3 (and mods, like Litcube), remains the highpoint of the series. X4 may get there some day but it's got some way to go... Secondly, let me give my thanks, applause, and respect, to the devs / mods / whateveryouwanttocallthem who've given their time to making FL real. Even where I scratch my head about what they've done and why, or where I bang my head against a wall in frustration, that remains real.

Thank you.

And yes, I'm sure CBJ is loving this, and I am equally sure he will never, ever, say a damn thing about it :D .
Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43
we made it so people can modify the system very easily, to either shut if off completely or adjust its impact as they like, Cycrow made sure of that.
Only you didn't. I think it was today (maybe yesterday?) that Cycrow stated that there was a bug in the "fix" for dynamic race relations (for modified games using the fix). Sure, I get that it might have been minor in the scheme of things, but "things not feeling right" really undermines my confidence in the shape of the... "simulation" I am trying to enjoy. In spite of how much time I have on my hands I am extremely reluctant to invest hundreds of hours in something when some of the foundations seem... a little flaky.

I'm actually playing an unmodified game at the moment. And I am enjoying it a lot.

But I haven't played "my X" yet. Stations? Zero. Unitraders? Zero. "Infrastructure"? Zero.

Fear, of ****** things up? High.

Unintentional cross post, but ExE22 is my friend :).

EDIT: 66 hours, of which probably 50-55 have been throwaway :(.
I can't breathe.

- George Floyd, 25th May 2020

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by fireanddream » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 13:47

Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43

Still hope people find enjoyment with it and am looking for long and civil debates about it for months to come. For those that dislike it, I'm sure there are modified options.

MFG

Ketraar
If I have to summarize my point against the system, Ketraar, it would be this:

Hostility in X3 is entirely pointless so it should be reserved for those who willingly opt in.



None of the major races is our canon enemy. The game's goal is not to conquer everyone. There is no plot mission associated with large-scale conquests. Sector takeover is not a thing. They respawn infinitely. Boarding and capping are hostile activities that are better done when we are not actively being shot at.

Hostility outside of combat is basically losing access to station, ships and goods, but the solution is so lay-out that even the fun of being challenged is not there. All we need to do is to grind agents and send them to steal blueprints again and again. With cargo stealing and more rare ships flown by civilians, the reward of going hostile is even worse than before.

I cannot recall a single occasion where I think "Hmm I should tank my rep with the Argon". In FL the negative rep is forced upon us like dull knives being handed out at a steakhouse. It's objectively no more difficult, maybe new and fun for some guys, just Errrg inducing and should be optional.

AP has offered large scale combat for us and personally I know what it's like to plow through sectors and double kill Valhallas. Combat in FL is still its own reward. Unless I get access to like a #Deca or something, all the system did to me is putting more obstacles that are nothing more than time consuming.

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by chip56 » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 16:20

Ketraar wrote:
Mon, 14. Jun 21, 23:43

Still hope people find enjoyment with it and am looking for long and civil debates about it for months to come. For those that dislike it, I'm sure there are modified options.

MFG

Ketraar
As i have mentioned in a couple posts already:
I think its a great idea and i am glad that you went and added now ideas.

I get that you cant be best buddies with everyone. makes sense and i support that part.
My personal beef with the current implementation is: Neutrality is not really any option.
You either go and invest a rather unfun amount of juggling around or you go into full out war with factions even though you never actually did something that was really directed against them.

One example just to highlight the point:
If you go and kill xenon in split, argon, boron, paranid and teladi space, equivally splitting the kills, doing litterally nothing. What would we expect in a real world scenario?
You would expect that if you would defend two hostile power blocks from the genocidal outside invasion that pretty much everyone would show some reasonable respect. They would probably not give you their state of the art military top secret projects but they would probably grant you a place to rest and trade you common goods, maybe even some of the better but not top tier stuff. Sure you would probably be under survelance of the secret services too but that would be probably only watching your moves to check that your motives dont shift.

What happens with the current implementation? Every single corporation is going to hate you and fire on sight since you lose more rep with them than you get. The involved main factions would slowly increase up to the cap, up to maximum for one side even. The terarans, pirates and yaki are also going to shoot you on sight.
That does feel off, doesnt it? If i dont remember incorrectly the lore even explictly says somewhere (might be in x4 though?) that the one thing that can ensure a cease fire between any faction is if the xenon attack so that they can be repelled.

Another example:
you produce food. Only food. Selling that in argon space will ultimatly lead to the split and paranid shoting you on sight. Would any modern nation order a "kill on sight" command against food suppliers?

Which is why i think you need two modifications for further iterations to really feel right:
1) Things that are not military ior otherwise directly against a faction n nature should not lower your Reputation into the negatives.
2) There should be some actions that increase your rep with factions up to a certain value (lets say between the gap for that between 0 and +5) without that part triggering negative dynamic reputations.

One example that would make a lot of sense for my suggestion number 2:
Terrans would respect you for killing xenon anywhere in the universe. They would not shoot you on sight for killing xenon and instead show some respect for you (which is why you would get reputation for them if you are below the mentioned gap above). However they would be still distrustful of you as outsider if you dont work directly for them which is why this bonus would only go up to the gap of for example +4. That would allow you basic trading, access to basic gear but all the heavy duty gear would still be off limits to you.
Borons or goner could give a bit of rep if you save astronauts from space. I am sure the community could come up with one good idea for each faction.

With the above changes you actually would get the option to play neutral with the factions. You would not get the great stuff but you could at least have your traders move there without you having to fear that they get blown into pieces because you just defended some other trader of your fleet from xenon and you were unfortunate and that was a K in a sector hostile to faction where you are down at +4 reputation.

It might also make sense for FL to make ranks more linear to make judging if you are going to need to improve your actions asap easier for players. Its not really easy to judge if rank 4 86% is enough that you can take the hard mission from a rank 9 hostile faction or not. Or could you make that call for each of those cases without issue:
Station defense mission against xenon. Reward: agent + 10 million credits. Take it if your reputation with a different faction is at?:
Rank 2, 38%
Rank 3, 15%
Rank 4, 86%,
Rank 5, 73%
Rank 6, 34%

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Chaos Master » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 17:42

I wonder if it would be possible to make a mod that makes the Xenon a faction that is enemies with everyone and who you can't improve relations with.

That way if you kill Xenon you'd always improve relations with everyone.

Would be a janky fix, and not solve the problem of forcing a modified, but make the system a little bit saner.

Although doing a high ranked kill mission against Xenon would probably still tank your reputation with the enemies of whoever you did the mission for.
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Ketraar » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:05

Chaos Master wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 17:42
I wonder if it would be possible to make a mod that makes the Xenon a faction that is enemies with everyone and who you can't improve relations with.
Xenon are already hostile to everyone, that is not why you get negative impact to other races. Killing Xenon in one spot will PLEASE the local race and the uptick wil have a sligh down tick to the oposing faction regardless who you kill.

MFG

Ketraar
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Chaos Master » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:22

Ketraar wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:05
Chaos Master wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 17:42
I wonder if it would be possible to make a mod that makes the Xenon a faction that is enemies with everyone and who you can't improve relations with.
Xenon are already hostile to everyone, that is not why you get negative impact to other races. Killing Xenon in one spot will PLEASE the local race and the uptick wil have a sligh down tick to the oposing faction regardless who you kill.

MFG

Ketraar
Yes, I mentioned that in my comment.

But making Xenon a faction, killing them would make you lose notoriety with them, and since they are enemies with everyone else you'd gain notoriety with everyone else as a consequence.
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Cycrow » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:28

they already are a faction. You cant lose notoriety with them as you are already at the bottom.

but that wouldn't make a difference anyways.

the dynamic relations only effect notoriety gains

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Midnightknight » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 19:12

It's a bit weird to have the terrans be angry cause you are killing Xenons, no matter where and for whom, as the whole faction in the two previous games resolved around actually killing xenons and all AI. If they are in conflict with other races it's only because other races don't want to stop using AI ...
But yeah since Terrans have been set enemies of everyone (What is weird too for me) if you make a Xenon kill gain notoriety with terrans that means loose with everybody else. And we touches once again the limit of the whole thing how it is implemented.

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by -XeNoN- » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 19:49

OK i think i wrote this long way back or mentioned it before but here it goes:

First of this reputation system should've always been in any x game because not only player becomes too powerful with maxed ranks with all non enemy races its just not lore wise...
There were countless wars between races and factions in the x universe lore that this change in FL makes total sense and brings alot more immersion and variety, not to mention players need to work alot more in FL to become powerful, ofcourse x games were in its core sandbox and freedom to choose but they always kept their lore

Tbh there was few mods for TC/ AP that also featured dynamic relations and those were almoust the same as FL

So do i like this change?
Yes because it gives more challenge and immersion.

Do others like it?
I cant say for others but Egosoft and the owners of the content have the right to code/ change their games as they see fit. There are always mods that enhance or improve or change the game.

So what about vanilla?
If you wish to play and earn achievements how Egosoft or content creators envisioned it how it can be played, go for it otherwise go mod.

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Chaos Master » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 20:21

Cycrow wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:28
but that wouldn't make a difference anyways.

the dynamic relations only effect notoriety gains
Ah, I wasn't aware of the asymmetry of the system.
Cycrow wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 18:28
they already are a faction. You cant lose notoriety with them as you are already at the bottom.
Does that also mean that if I do missions for a faction that I have max notoriety with I won't lose any with their enemies?
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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Deianeira » Tue, 15. Jun 21, 21:49

Chaos Master wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 20:21
Does that also mean that if I do missions for a faction that I have max notoriety with I won't lose any with their enemies?
Don't worry, you will never reach max notoriety with the current system. It would take thousands of missions...

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by Le Boron Chétif » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 13:57

Deianeira wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 21:49
Chaos Master wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 20:21
Does that also mean that if I do missions for a faction that I have max notoriety with I won't lose any with their enemies?
Don't worry, you will never reach max notoriety with the current system. It would take thousands of missions...
How many thousands? I'm never against a bit of grinding... :mrgreen:
:boron: Blub?

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by -XeNoN- » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 15:28

Le Boron Chétif wrote:
Thu, 17. Jun 21, 13:57
Deianeira wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 21:49
Chaos Master wrote:
Tue, 15. Jun 21, 20:21
Does that also mean that if I do missions for a faction that I have max notoriety with I won't lose any with their enemies?
Don't worry, you will never reach max notoriety with the current system. It would take thousands of missions...
How many thousands? I'm never against a bit of grinding... :mrgreen:
Think rank 10 is 10 k or 100 k points cant remember :) its more likely its 100 k points

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by chip56 » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 15:43

here is the table for ranks and notoriety
10 333,333 (to 1,000,000)
9 100,000
8 33,333
7 10,000
6 3,333
5 1,000
4 333
3 100
2 33
1 10
0 -10
-1 -100
-2 -1,000
-3 -10,000
-4 -100,000
-5 -1,000,000

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Re: 150 hours, FUBAR Noteriety System, Goodbye, Good Luck

Post by -XeNoN- » Thu, 17. Jun 21, 16:11

chip56 wrote:
Thu, 17. Jun 21, 15:43
here is the table for ranks and notoriety
10 333,333 (to 1,000,000)
9 100,000
8 33,333
7 10,000
6 3,333
5 1,000
4 333
3 100
2 33
1 10
0 -10
-1 -100
-2 -1,000
-3 -10,000
-4 -100,000
-5 -1,000,000
Oh yea wasnt sure anymore thanks :)

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