Love the game except for the diplomacy

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Morgund
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Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Morgund » Fri, 28. May 21, 17:13

As titled, I'm loving this game... Except for diplomacy. It's causing me a grand amount of frustration. It would be great if there were a way to revert that one aspect back to stock. I want to be friends with all the races and factions except for the Xenon and Khaak, at least until I'm ready to wage war upon the universe.

Otherwise, for me, this is a great job well done. Thank you for all of your hard work!
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blazenclaw
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by blazenclaw » Fri, 28. May 21, 19:16

I made a post showing how many factions you can befriend simultaneously if that might be helpful. You can befriend all but three* factions in a stable manner, and then once all of them are maxed out at +8 or +10, befriend the remaining 3 up to +7 so all factions are at that level (though you do effectively slowly lose rep with all races at this point, so will need to make 3 factions be foes again after some (potentially very long) time in order to reset).

Edit: The cleaned up steam guide here is better
Last edited by blazenclaw on Sat, 29. May 21, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

birdtable
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by birdtable » Sat, 29. May 21, 08:53

This is the problem (amongst many) the Devs have to balance, I really enjoy the diplomacy aspect, (who dies today but not tomorrow) don't want to be friends with any race unless they benefit my advancement/procurement/defences .... Although I would gladly remove the Xenon altogether, not needed !! others would disagree.

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Erqco
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Erqco » Sat, 29. May 21, 17:09

Morgund wrote:
Fri, 28. May 21, 17:13
As titled, I'm loving this game... Except for diplomacy. It's causing me a grand amount of frustration. It would be great if there were a way to revert that one aspect back to stock. I want to be friends with all the races and factions except for the Xenon and Khaak, at least until I'm ready to wage war upon the universe.

Otherwise, for me, this is a great job well done. Thank you for all of your hard work!
I agree a 100% with your opinion, great job, a few minor bugs that are been patched, but the diplomacy is a mess, don't listen to the the people that will tell " it is your problem" " you don't understand it" " You can have some relations with almost everyone".
An example that has happened to me, mission against the Xenon in a pirate sector, Argon fleet come by and help me to destroy the Xenon, after this my relation with the Argon got an hit. After this I have shelved the game until... I don't know.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by PDS001Sniper » Sat, 29. May 21, 20:28

Same here. Don't like it. It's not Dynamic at all.
Its a static formula and script that still need some work and bug fix.

Sometimes a rep gain goes too high, or goes too low.
Killing Xenons in faction sectors sometimes upset other factions. I kill because I got attacked not because I want to help one or another.

I'm literally being forced to play in a small area in Teladi sectors if I want to keep peace with everyone.

Some people like it, some don't. Give us options to enable it or disable it in game.
We can do it via cheat or modified game, but I rather keep it stock.
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by blazenclaw » Sat, 29. May 21, 21:24

PDS001Sniper wrote:
Sat, 29. May 21, 20:28
Sometimes a rep gain goes too high, or goes too low.
Killing Xenons in faction sectors sometimes upset other factions. I kill because I got attacked not because I want to help one or another.

I'm literally being forced to play in a small area in Teladi sectors if I want to keep peace with everyone.
Keeping peace with everyone is intended to not be easily achievable though, and by design enforcing the player to have at least some enemies reduces how overpowered the player faction is as compared to previous titles when you can war profiteer off of literally everyone. In this game, if you pick a small handful of enemies, you can easily play in 80% of the map without issue.

I do agree there do seem to be some occasions where reputation gain is too high (notably agents are probably too effective and some potential wonkiness when doing missions for factions you've negative rep with), which can cause large swings for the other factions. This will very likely be tuned in future patches, though.

Regarding "I kill because I got attacked" - the thing is, either A) you've a fast ship, in which case if some Xenons take a pot shot at you in enemy space you're more than welcome to just let them eat your exhaust and ignore them rather than help protect whatever sector you're in, or B) you have a slower ship, in which case the only ships you can't escape from are probably low-tier ones, or you should probably just jump away if you're not willing to eat the (what should be a small) rep swing for whatever faction's space you're currently in. Not to mention, if you're not willing to side with a faction, why are you in their space anyway? Whatever the player does is helping one faction or another, so if you want to have a playstyle where you're friends with everyone, your options are to either fly around the universe trading/helping whoever likes you the least (with some limitations, see the guide I posted above), or just sit in Teladi space, but the latter seems far less interesting than the former.

Somehow though, if you're feeling pressured into only staying in Teladi space, I've a feeling that's because you're trying to play X3AP, not FL, where you do have to carefully manage relations instead of, well, not give a ****. This is a different game. In my mind it's kinda like saying "I don't like the leveling system in Mass Effect [or arbitrary singleplayer RPG], so give me the option to start the game at max level". Doable in a mod sure, but it's also not really quite the same game anymore, right?

All that being said... this is a singleplayer game, and I've no right to say anyone disliking the system is playing it wrong. Perhaps it's just that if you consider playing it from a way closer to the way it's "intended" to be played, you might find yourself enjoying it more than you'd expect? I wouldn't normally consider alienating Paranid and Split, but doing so in my game has lead to a more interesting and definitely more dynamic gameplay than I would otherwise, and it's certainly more interesting than prior X3 games.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Snafu_X3 » Sun, 30. May 21, 01:06

blazenclaw wrote:
Sat, 29. May 21, 21:24
Very nice synopsis, Blazen!

TLDR: you can't get max rep with all factions/corps any more, but you /can/ be at least docking-friendly with most of them. Politics & its rep-juggling has finally made it to the X-verse (admittedly it still needs some fine-tuning); whether you regard that as a good or bad thing for playability is a personal opinion
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Sun, 30. May 21, 01:59

Main Aspect I dislike about the new diplomacy: Corp are treated equally to races.
So some faction owning a singe system gives you the same dynamic neg rep a a fully grown race owning dozens of sectors.
as a rule of thumb factions dyn rep effects should be halved and they should give you quite some buff for their main race rep and halve of their dyns.
e.g. OTAS: +50% Arg(was +15%) +7.5% Boron(+5) -15Par(-30) -15Pir(-30) -7.5Spl(-15) -15Ter(-30) -15Yak(-30) -15Atr(-30) -7.5Str(-15) -15TC(-30)
Also dyn relations shouldn't push you below shoot on sight limit, if you help their enemies it's a cause to distrust you, but to hate you a direct attack should be required.
Last edited by ubuntufreakdragon on Sun, 30. May 21, 02:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Erqco
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Erqco » Sun, 30. May 21, 02:06

It is a nice experiment. that is my opinion, need a lot of work, not a touch up. I don't like to be forced, that the best part of other games of the saga, the freedom.
Been forced to play with these limits because looks cool, is not fun for me, The absurdity of not defense from your enemy because I am in the system of other enemy. Or I will help you in this mission in my enemy's system but I will hate you for this.
You will need this software from X and this other for Y but you can't be friend of both. Very fun.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Fulgrymm » Sun, 30. May 21, 05:46

I agree, as it is, it just seems like a weird roundabout game of diplomacy whack-a-mole. Very fun indeed.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by fireanddream » Sun, 30. May 21, 11:58

What I really don't understand is what does the dynamic relation system bring to the table?

Not being able to befriend every race? Launch AP, pick an Argon start and don't neutral your relation with the Paranid, done.

Being capped at +8 instead of +10 relation? What do I miss? Not being able to buy an M2? If only there is another way to get capital ships in the game, huh.

Large fleet battle? Forced to face an entire race? If only there's some sort of race war going on in AP, right?

Bulldozing a sector and claim it as your own? Sorry can't do that in FL either.


In the end, what we really get from the system are these: 1) crazy rep swing from mission & 2) friend/foe flipping out at any moment's notice.

The former takes away the availability of missions. Don't bother comming the stations if you are in a sector owned by a race you don't to befriend. Don't do ANY mission if your rep with the races can't take a major blow. They swing between -2 to +2 crazy fast.

The latter adds a huge amount of micromanagement. The X engine is not built for players to switch back n forth from being friendly and foe. We need to replace destroyed satellite, calling every military ships to calm down, hacking hostile stations, replacing destroyed stations. And what do we get from flipping between races? See above.

Above all, there is never a moment I go focus on other stuff without worrying about the system. I cannot do mission without worrying about their potential rep hits, cannot attack the Xenon without looking at where I'm at, cannot build a complex without committing to befriend the sector owner forever from now on, cannot send ships to explore the universe in case they wander into Corp territories. Even worse, there is nothing interesting to be gained from fight a race except maybe selling their capitals, and if the player is into that, they can, you know, just start attacking a race! Duh.


The gameplay the team envisioned: today friend, tomorrow enemy, learn to adapt quickly in this everchanging universe!

Our actual gameplay: **** my discoverer wandered into the wrong sector, 18 satellite destroyed, Split going from +5 to -2 in one mission, 4 out of the 5 corps hate me, red ships and combat music 99% of the time.


Again, if I want be an Argon/Boron fan boy and "YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEFRIEND EVERYONE" I would have gone to AP and set the Paranid and Split to foe. Done. And about 30 hours in I'll flip the friend/foe settings, there, dynamic. What the system brings to the table is instability, hustle and micromanagement for the player and is a poor attempt to imitate Civ/Stellaris with X's engine.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by fireanddream » Sun, 30. May 21, 12:38

In fact, the dynamic relation system almost reminds me of Mount & Blade warband, where kingdoms declare war at you completely randomly and 30% of the map will be hostile at any given time.

However, that is fine because:

1) the goal of M&B is to conquer everyone
2) playing as a trader you are completely unaffected
3) there is no leftover problems to fix after a kingdom turns neutral
4) you don't need anything from any of the kingdoms
5) you decide when this is going to affect you
6) you don't have 800 small properties scattered around the map that will become a target of attack

I could go on, but this is now a dynamic system is fun and funny at times if put into a proper engine.

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Godalmighty83 » Sun, 30. May 21, 18:06

There's a couple of threads in the scripting forum about how to disable it entirely, imho DR takes far more away from the game than it gives. Especially with nonsense like leftover hostile Laser Towers and random patrol ships that refuse to accept that you're friends again.
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Wou » Sun, 30. May 21, 19:36

fireanddream wrote:
Sun, 30. May 21, 12:38
In fact, the dynamic relation system almost reminds me of Mount & Blade warband, where kingdoms declare war at you completely randomly and 30% of the map will be hostile at any given time.

However, that is fine because: [...]
Yeah M&B is a good example of thing actually working. And adding to the list - if you beat the hostile faction enough times they will propose a truce and stop the hostilities. Or you could bribe them/pay a tribute IIRC. Wiping them out of existence is a feasible option as well. You don't have to suck up to them and murder their enemies angering someone else in the process.
To me the current system looks like something that could potentially be a good addition to the game, but isn't really fleshed out enough to bring anything to the table but annoyances. Oops, you helped Split defend against Xenon one to many times, you now can't buy a jumpdrive in Terracorp HQ. whoop-de-doo. Oh and those few red stations from a now friendly faction? They will stay red till the end of time no matter what's your rep.
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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Hwitvlf » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 17:59

This is ridiculous! Somehow I ticked off the ReadText gang. Who they are allied with!!!?
Image
But seriously, this is mostly a bug report not worth its own post. This little {censored} is the guy who spawns to scan your ships when you're doing heavy Blackmarket trading (Boron).

Maybe the diplomacy system isn't bothering me because it works out similar to my default playstyle; I usually had at least one faction mad at me at any given time. It gets boring quick if everybody is friendly.

Since the HQ can now obtain ship-equipment, I just made the rounds and have everything I need at the HQ. It doesn't really matter if I tick off Jonferco or Strong Arms. Now I get paid (police license) for pirating Strong Arms ships and can board a Paranid M2 in Boron space without getting the locals hostile. I'm enjoying the increased activity!

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Re: Love the game except for the diplomacy

Post by Midnightknight » Sat, 12. Jun 21, 19:40

fireanddream wrote:
Sun, 30. May 21, 11:58
What I really don't understand is what does the dynamic relation system bring to the table?

Not being able to befriend every race? Launch AP, pick an Argon start and don't neutral your relation with the Paranid, done.

Being capped at +8 instead of +10 relation? What do I miss? Not being able to buy an M2? If only there is another way to get capital ships in the game, huh.

Large fleet battle? Forced to face an entire race? If only there's some sort of race war going on in AP, right?

Bulldozing a sector and claim it as your own? Sorry can't do that in FL either.


In the end, what we really get from the system are these: 1) crazy rep swing from mission & 2) friend/foe flipping out at any moment's notice.

The former takes away the availability of missions. Don't bother comming the stations if you are in a sector owned by a race you don't to befriend. Don't do ANY mission if your rep with the races can't take a major blow. They swing between -2 to +2 crazy fast.

The latter adds a huge amount of micromanagement. The X engine is not built for players to switch back n forth from being friendly and foe. We need to replace destroyed satellite, calling every military ships to calm down, hacking hostile stations, replacing destroyed stations. And what do we get from flipping between races? See above.

Above all, there is never a moment I go focus on other stuff without worrying about the system. I cannot do mission without worrying about their potential rep hits, cannot attack the Xenon without looking at where I'm at, cannot build a complex without committing to befriend the sector owner forever from now on, cannot send ships to explore the universe in case they wander into Corp territories. Even worse, there is nothing interesting to be gained from fight a race except maybe selling their capitals, and if the player is into that, they can, you know, just start attacking a race! Duh.


The gameplay the team envisioned: today friend, tomorrow enemy, learn to adapt quickly in this everchanging universe!

Our actual gameplay: **** my discoverer wandered into the wrong sector, 18 satellite destroyed, Split going from +5 to -2 in one mission, 4 out of the 5 corps hate me, red ships and combat music 99% of the time.


Again, if I want be an Argon/Boron fan boy and "YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEFRIEND EVERYONE" I would have gone to AP and set the Paranid and Split to foe. Done. And about 30 hours in I'll flip the friend/foe settings, there, dynamic. What the system brings to the table is instability, hustle and micromanagement for the player and is a poor attempt to imitate Civ/Stellaris with X's engine.
fireanddream wrote:
Sun, 30. May 21, 12:38
In fact, the dynamic relation system almost reminds me of Mount & Blade warband, where kingdoms declare war at you completely randomly and 30% of the map will be hostile at any given time.

However, that is fine because:

1) the goal of M&B is to conquer everyone
2) playing as a trader you are completely unaffected
3) there is no leftover problems to fix after a kingdom turns neutral
4) you don't need anything from any of the kingdoms
5) you decide when this is going to affect you
6) you don't have 800 small properties scattered around the map that will become a target of attack

I could go on, but this is now a dynamic system is fun and funny at times if put into a proper engine.

I can't agree better than that. I was going to post why i'm going to quite playing X3:FL cause yeah it finally got my nerves, and all the people always telling you "Nah it's easy do that and it's fine" apparently never really play the game cause their solution never works.
The game was never designed for this and forcing it at all cost brings nothing good.

War Between Argon/Boron and Paranids/Splits -> Get around the universe and see those military Raptors flying around Titans without attacking each other, ok that's war. But see in Teladi, neutral space how the same Titan wil destroy any Paranid of Split trader. LOL yeah war.

Use agent to negate rep drop -> Alright this works till you hit the red with anybody, cause when it happens things become completely out of control, they turn red and even when you go back to green, you have to com' every of their ships to turn green again or they will attack your belongings and doing this makes your ships fight back and possibly kill them and send you back in red. So cool. It's not like there is a global behavior to set who is enemy or not. But every of your ship don't give a s**t about it. And then you have this strange thing, when an OTAS red ship is attacked by one of your tower in teladi space and for an unknown reason a response Osprey jumps in, RED and your towers attacks it. You notice all went again uncontrollable when you good old friends at +8 rep announce you you just lost a rep level you spend hours and hours to farm.

Don't do missions anymore, seriously, except missions for agents, you can't do any mission at all. You want the agent to help you farm your rep and negate the hit you will take doing the said mission to remain friend with everyone, cause you don't want to be red, see above. So you skip 3/4 of the missions and in the last 1/4 you need to check they are given by the right race! Cause even if you are in a Teledi space, pirates can give you missions that will anger the Teladis! You are a traitor for doing missions, but he is not a traitor for offering them and is allowed to stay on the station.

Forget about economy -> The economy is completely dead. Those relations + Xenon spam completely destroys it. Most traders do not makes it to destination, so they buy wares, are killed with them, so it's lost. Most factory are stopped and except if the player comes to feed them to life, they are simply useless. So you need to build everything on your own or almost, a TOA is really expensive and needs tons of resources from every race, special mention for those microships devs want's absolutely you get insane amounts and are built so slowly that the whole universe would need years to be able to get enough for a single TOA! I built one to try to speed up the process, upgraded to XL, but i consume all the e-cells and all the silicon of the region to feed the complex and even like this it's slow as hell. Mobile mining is bugged like hell, so no big help either. And i still haven't even tried to give the terrans the chips they asked AHAHAH

It's nearly impossible to understand -> Who is enemy of whom? Seriously, ok for the 5 main races it's pretty simple, doing things for Argons/Borons have negative effect on Split/Paranid and vice versa. But the hell with Goners, Corps, Pirates, Terrans? Seriously it's unbearable. I was friendly with splits and Paranids but Strong Arms was hostile, da f ..? Sometimes i help NMMC and i see my pirate rep going up? Aren't the traders and pirates mortal enemies? Why the f are terrans enemies of everyone? in AP they were hostiles only with Argons and Borons if i remember well! Ah but that leads to the next point i guess.

Sides aren't balanced at all -> I really think the devs don't like terrans and enjoys playing Borons/Argons allies, cause life is so much easier siding with borons and nearly impossible for terrans and Yakis. First the only resource you can't get as Boron ally is majaglit and rastar oil. Majaglit is only used for advanced satellites and you can buy some from teladis. So to be able to have all resources you simply needs to steal a rastar oil refinery and voila. If you are not friend with Argon/Boron, you can't have access to 200mj shield factory, no rimes, no space fuel, and forget almost all their ships. Cause Splits/Paranids special ships can be caped in space, forget about it for most Otas, atreus, or even argon ships. Too bad. I won't talk about the fact if you anger the borons too fast, goodbye PHQ, as if the games do all it's best to tell you "You have only one way to go". Also so many corps allied with Argons ... And Jonferco not even really a corp ..?

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