Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

[tim-ski]

Once my Argon rep had been worked up to +7, taking a Split mission (with Split still at +7) resulted in a modest 9% reduction in Argon reputation and a far greater gain in Split rep.

• That tends to support the original logic that enemies with low reputations are hit disproportionately when working for a faction at high reputation.
• It suggests that at higher reputation levels it is entirely possible to gain with both mutual enemy factions, simply by switching mission faction at the right moment.
• And in so far as reputation caps were supposed to limit that, they do not, because as shown here one can skip right past these caps with careful mission management.

Reputation caps are broken, both messing up base reputational mathematics, and probably as a consequence of having messed it up, then failing to definitively cap reputation.

[Psynix]

Not necassarily as big of a rep bonus as you lose since you get 100 for the main faction, -30% for any enemy and 15% for allies. Which means if you have done something for someone with lots of enemies you will have a net loss.
I think it would be more intersting to make each mission give a differing percentage instead of just different amount of rep.
That way you could have a Split assination against a boron: something like 100% rep gain split but -200% boron for very high ranking people. A Taxi mission could be 100 rep gain and only -5% rep loss.
Xenon defense mission: 100% rep gain, -1% rep loss since thats the one thing they all agree on: xenon are a danger and must be stopped.

I too would like that since it would make it again possible to have good relations with everyone. But it sounded more like that's exactly what the dev's didn't want.
Well i guess we will have to wait till we find out

[blazenclaw]

Not necassarily as big of a rep bonus as you lose since you get 100 for the main faction, -30% for any enemy and 15% for allies.

Is it -30% for both "Hostile" and "Enemy" relation and +15% for both Ally/Friend, or some other mix?

[chip56]

Is it -30% for both "Hostile" and "Enemy" relation and +15% for both Ally/Friend, or some other mix?

The globals file has the follwoing values:
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_ALLY;15;
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_HERO;10;
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_KNIGHT;5;
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY;30;
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY_MAIN;15;
SG_DYNRACE_MAXENEMYNOTO;33333;

Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.
All i can say is that reducing the SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY makes it quite a bit of work to get positive rep with multiple factions but at least for the main factions actually possible. Which i feel is a bit more right: you can get to a good rank (but not max) rank with multiple factions if you actually do something for one side, than the other and so on. But as soon as you focus on one side the others drop actually.

[X2-Illuminatus]

Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.

A short explanation of the global values is given in the Survival Guide. Feel free to ask for more pointers in the X3FL Scripts and Modding Forum.

[chip56]

Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.

A short explanation of the global values is given in the Survival Guide. Feel free to ask for more pointers in the X3FL Scripts and Modding Forum.

Yeah i found that but i still didnt manage to understand those parts:
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_HERO 10 The percentage of notoriety points Hero races receive
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_KNIGHT 5 The percentage of notoriety points Knight races receive

And the enemy_main i wasnt sure i really i understood right.
Anyway for my own personal purposes editing the SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY did a lot already.

[Cycrow]

Those values are the percentage to adjust the other races by

The 5 values are different ranks, Ally is rank 9, hero is 7 and knight is 5. Enemy is -4 and enemy main is -2

If you look in the encyclopedia race page it lists the notoriety levels to other races.
If they are listed as Ally then they gain 15%, or Friend they gain either 10 or 5%, hostile will lose 15% and enemy will lose 30%.

Generally the main waring races are enemies with each other and hostile towards thier allies
So Argon is enemy to Paranid and hostile to Spilt.

This means that Paranid are not welcome in any Argon sector, but Split are only not welcome in Core sectors

[blazenclaw]

Thank you Cycrow, that was precisely what I was looking for

I also happened to notice that Atreus has ATF listed as one of its enemies, but ATF has no corresponding entry for Atreus; not sure if that's lore or bug that ATF leaves this corp alone? (They also leave NMMC alone, but everyone does, so idk). Everything else (except Terran faction, haven't met them yet) seems to be symmetric with the exception of Goner, but that one makes more sense.

[Cycrow]

The Atreus and ATF is probably just a mistake

NMMC is a Teladi company so neutral with everyone except Yaki

The Goner is done deliberately

[blazenclaw]

NMMC is a Teladi company so neutral with everyone except Yaki

Both NMMC and Yaki are neutral to each other according to the Encyclopedia in 1.0, it's Duke's they have beef with apparently.

Table

Show

https://i.imgur.com/RDrUhDz.png
The left boxed column is a result change in notoriety after gaining the top boxed row of notoriety with each faction. Messy, but clearly it's a pretty negative sum game to play all sides, which totally makes sense lol.
This is also operating under the assumption that all "Friends" are 0.1 while some are actually 0.5.

So if I'm understanding the system right, it is impossible to have net positive relations with all factions, even excluding Terrans. Well, this excludes utilizing lower bounds, so you might be able to get a larger subset or even possibly full positive by hitting a negative limit... but darn, there go my hopes of gaming the system lol.

(Well, I'm sure things will change somewhat in 1.1 and onward, but this is for now at least)

[Thurak]

Otherwise you could just do taxi missions the gain rep and never loose it which is obliviously not the dev's intentions.

But mine. If I want to go to war, I could easily do a couple of war/fight missions and have my fun with it. If I want to be friends with anyone that should also be possible. If you only do fight missions it should be as hard as it is now to balance those, but I want taxi and trade missions to be imbalanced (on the reputation side), so players have the option to play a friendly Boron or Teladi trader.

Isn't the full balance approach early on exactly the problem of the current implementation?

[blazenclaw]

If I want to be friends with anyone that should also be possible. If you only do fight missions it should be as hard as it is now to balance those, but I want taxi and trade missions to be imbalanced (on the reputation side), so players have the option to play a friendly Boron or Teladi trader.

Technically, you absolutely can be friendly with nearly everyone in 1.0 as a friendly trader; you just won't be at the highest ranks with any faction. I don't think an Argon "Protector of the Federation" should be easily seen giving one of those pirate scum a taxi ride without repercussions, right?

I've been playing around with the current implementation of dynamic relations, and it is possible to be friends with almost all factions (including corporations) so long as you drop 2-3 to be dedicated enemies.

A couple examples:

Show

https://i.imgur.com/153nJER.png
I'll probably choose once I finally spot the Terrans and can add them to this list (lol), but my guess is that someone can probably be friendly with them as well so long as you're enemies with all three of OTAS/Strong/Dukes.

To be honest, I'm rather glad of this system; it is possible to be friendly with almost all (yet not max with any), OR high ranks with a few, as opposed to somehow every faction turning a blind eye to you selling arms to them and their deepest foes. The rapid swings when you approach a high rank with one faction is an unfortunate side effect of current implementation, but I'm certain the devs can figure a clever solution without breaking the system as it currently stands. Maybe rep gain for a mission should be something like max(fl_mission_reward, enemy_threshold) where fl_mission_reward is the current calculated value, and enemy_threshold is the limit for which the side effect would bring you to zero for a faction with which you're currently positive? But this is an off the cuff idea, I'm certain there's actually good ways to do it without overmuch coding effort.

Whatever the case, after considering it, I am now rather strongly in favor of dynamic relations. Thank you devs

Edit: Found the Terrans, forgot how much everyone hates them lol. The best configuration I found that includes main factions and Terrans requires dropping Pirates/OTAS/Duke's/Strong (and ATF/Yaki, because I don't think you can improve relations with them?). Can't be friends with Pirates and Terrans and main races in a stable manner, even if all corps are dropped, so don't try! Also TY mod for editing images, didn't see forum rules re: image sizes.

[Thurak]

OR high ranks with a few, as opposed to somehow every faction turning a blind eye to you selling arms to them and their deepest foes.

I am convinced that any reputation losses simply because one gains reputation with another faction is a faulty idea. It should be mission bound: I lose Split rep, when I transport Boron weapons/soldiers, but not when I transport a civilian or food around. This is my main problem with the implementation right now. I absolutely do not want to turn a blind eye, but I also don't want the losses being based purely on reputation gain, that's too simplistic to me.

I would love a system with no reputation losses purely because another faction likes me. I would love no caps for relations. But I would very much prefer a lot more missions having a negative impact.

Supply a weapon factory with anything? Rep loss for enemies of the faction I support.

Military troop transport? Rep loss.

Purely accepting a patrol? Rep loss (additional to the kill losses)

There are probably more, but I think you get the idea.

This would enable players to choose their missions wisely (especially early on important) so the rep losses don't tank unexpected or simply because you killed three pirates.

I hope the devs at least consider the possibility that being best friends with anyone maybe should be an option. Not as easy as in previous X3 games, but not impossible as it is right now.

[izolight]

I think there is some kind of overflow bug with the lower ranks (not sure if it is because of 1.1 RC3 or not as i haven't done missions yet with 1.0).
I was at -5 with Boron, Paranid and Split and did a mission for each (scan asteroids in every case, not sure if it matters) and after that I'm +8 or +9 with them, with their enemies not really affected.
Leading to this:

[Midnightknight]

I have the exact opposite issue.

I'm lossing rep with Teladi at the speed of light even while doing missions for them and doing nothing else. All my trade is mostly done with Teladi and Split but while docked at a station i see my rep drop 10% every 5-6 seconds.

I noticed all went completely wrong after a Condor showed up during a fight against the Yaki. I attacked them cause nobody was protecting the sector and they were going on my transport in a border split territory, near the gate. Then the condor showed up and used FAA on the enemies hitting me a lot in the process before turning red, i guess cause or a returning fire. I tried to tell it a few time it was mistake but it wasn't turning blue. I humped away he followed me, excuse again and again. Sometime it did turn blue, before juping again after me and red again. I could get rid of it by flying in a pirate sector where i hoped it would be killed be following me, but stopped.

After this i had a severe drop in reputation cause apparently my towers shot 2 Teladi merchants with no reasons, as i'm still friendly with them and was max rank, but since it happened only once ... Ok. Then i had a Tern jumping in my player HQ sector right in front of my when trying to take a gate and it was red too. I apologized and he went blue. So it looked almost like the bug was fixed until i saw my rep was constantly dropping.

[Cycrow]

I think there is some kind of overflow bug with the lower ranks (not sure if it is because of 1.1 RC3 or not as i haven't done missions yet with 1.0).
I was at -5 with Boron, Paranid and Split and did a mission for each (scan asteroids in every case, not sure if it matters) and after that I'm +8 or +9 with them, with their enemies not really affected.
Leading to this:

was you rank -5 in all of them, and do you know what percentage it was?

its normal for not effecting the other ranks, as theres a minimum cuttoff, which allows you to gain some notoriety if you are really low, without effecting the other races. But you shouldn't be getting large amounts from a single mission

EDIT: i just did a quick check and it seems to be working fine for me. Its possible that the mission was generated before you applied the patch, so it was still using the values from RC1 or Before. New missions generally after RC2/RC3 should have a reduced amount of notoriety when at low ranks

[gammacee]

Hi folks, I am going to add my name to the list of those who want changes made to dynamic relations.

The idea is great, I like it that I don't get to be friends with everyone. However, there are some bugs in the implementation which mean I have to spend more of my game time 'managing the harm' than anything else. Which frankly sucks.
At the moment, I am an enemy to Paranid and Split, which means I can't trade, pass through their sectors and are randomly attacked by their ships. I got here because I did some asteroid scans for the Boron whilst exploring.
I have used up three agents trying to get my split rep back up to 'not a target' but realise now it is futile. One asteroid scan mission for the Boron wipes out several weeks of diplomatic effort...

I just want to explore...

Suggestion: For non-combat missions, limit reputation harm to a boundary of zero. i.e. you can lose all friendly rep for trading, taxiing, station-building or scanning for an enemy, but don't get any negative rep. This would seem simple and allow us pacifists to carry on being harmless.

[birdtable]

Much prefer a known enemy than a spawned one.. on the flipside your diplomatic agents are equally over powerful. Sometimes it is good fun trying to get your agent to a location.. I for one do not want to be friends with everyone, makes for bland gameplay.... Over spawning is a different issue and should be looked at because there is no true tactic/strategy.

[Thurak]

on the flipside your diplomatic agents are equally over powerful.

oh yeah, 6 tasks later (5 for 1000 influence, 1 for using it) you are from enemy of the Duke to decent friend of the Duke. Why the **** would anyone ignore all the ships you shot down simply because one dude was on a diplomatic mission for a while? But right now leave them too overpowered, imo. As long as the losses are (too) significant and unpredicateble I can very well live with my godlike agents. But later on a nerf for the rep gain mission would probably be a good idea.

[RegisterMe]

@Cycrow - I've a feeling something isn't quite right. I started a new 1.10 RC 3 (439801) (EN) game with the zeroed globals.txt this morning and so far have:-

Killed a couple of pirates (not a mission)
Killed a handful of Dukes (not a mission)
Sold 1000 e-cells in Paranid space
Bought some software
Bought three advanced satellites

I've seen two rep drops (percentages reported on pilot status page) for the Argon and Boron. iirc they occurred on the purchase of the s/w at the Paranid Equipment Dock in Duke's Citadel, and the sale of the 1000 e-cells.