Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by geldonyetich » Wed, 22. May 24, 19:54

Sorry, I did put that in overly drawn out ways that may have lost the context of the player feedback being given:
  • The main drive of the original feedback was that Xenon are not nearly as prevalent and threatening in 7.00 as in previous versions of X.
  • One of the veins of player feedback is that the Xenon could become an increasing threat over time.
  • The developers responded, quite correctly, that such a thing would capsize and ruin the balance of the climate of the gate network, from which there would be no return.
  • My player feedback upon the relevance of the new game button is that a capsized balance where there is no return is fine if a "roguelike" experience is the kind of experience that some players.
This is not intended as an argument or speculation. The developers provided clarification, and this enables better feedback clarification from the players.

If my understanding is in error, would you happen to have a resource that informs how productive feedback is supposed to work?

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by CBJ » Wed, 22. May 24, 23:42

My comment was directed at the post immediately above mine, not at you. :)

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Thu, 23. May 24, 08:30

Ketraar wrote:
Wed, 22. May 24, 00:20
So after next beta feel free to have a gander, especially in a new start, but also in existing saves it can still have improvements, albeit that will greatly depend on the situation in that save. One spoiler I can give is that in the last few logs the Xenon in Scale Plate Green have been more constant at taking over Turquoise See and even taken on the Teladi, which indirectly also helps alleviate ZYA since less Xenon are built at the top part of the map and thus less chaos in Zhin. Obviously this may vary with seeds, the RNG nature of X4 and player interactions.
From reading the Beta 6 patch notes and this comment, this sounds encouraging and on the surface does a lot to at least address my concerns about the Xenon. (The SEs trying to travel to the other side of the map was probably responsible for why they were not building their defence stations in enemy/unclaimed sectors and why they're now managing to take Turquoise Sea.). I often found that Zyarth were weak against the Xenon and the Teladi tended to gain the most from bulldozing the Xenon. So if the inverse is now true, it will be interesting to see how it now plays out.

As I said earlier in the thread, given there's been changes, I'll do a couple more AI only saves and share the results.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Fri, 24. May 24, 23:03

AI Only Save 4 (Beta 6) - 85H elapsed (before stopping).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NGHMiY ... sp=sharing

Yeah. This was a lot more like the Xenon that I prefer, though what happened in this save was the direct opposite of what Ketraar inferred. Absolute chaos in the North/West of the map whilst the East was quiet.

The Terrans sent a battle group with an Asgard to Matrix #451. This combined with a Teladi battle group obviously bulldozed the system, destroying both the Khaak and the Xenon with minimal effort and captured the system. They then later took Matrix #9 , so that Xenon cluster was essentially eradicated. The Xenon Shipyard and Wharf remain, but there's no economy for them to build ships, so it's essentially an uncontested Teladi Sector. The Scale Plate Green area was status quo. The Xenon did not take Turquoise Sea, and the Teladi later took both Turquoise Sea sectors. Tharka's Ravine IV also died. SEs from the other side of the map tried to reinforce both the #Matrix 451/9 area and Scale Plate Green areas and were getting regularly killed.

Whilst the Xenon were doing badly against the Teladi. The other side of the map was a different story. Zyarth at the start immediately started being very aggressive against all it's Xenon neighbours, with invasions of both Rhys Defiance and Tharka's Cascade XV. The latter one failed but softened the system up for a combined Argon/Terran fleet to wipe out several stations, but even they ultimately failed to take the system. The former was contested for a significant period of time. But by the time I woke up, Zyarth was ejected. Zyarth's predicament worsened over time. They're on track to lose both Family Zhin and Family Kritt, and also lost their primary defence station in Zyarth's Dominion I.

The Paranid in Litany of Fury had an absolutely horrible time. They lost both of those sectors and their Wharf in Wretched Skies X. Zyarth also lost their Wharf to a K in Wretched Skies V Family Phi. So basically there's a chain of sectors from Wretched Skies X to Zyarth's Dominion I which are regularly subject to Xenon raids. Heretics End also gets them. At no point though did it feel the Zyarth economy collapsed despite most of their territory being regularly attacked, a big difference from the complaints I made in the "economy" thread. They were still building a lot of ships (even the odd Carrier) in order to attempt to push the Xenon back.

The South was also a decent showing for the Xenon. They sent in 4 Ks simultaneously into The Void near the start and destroyed most of the stations in the South. This allowed uninterrupted raids from Atiya's Misfortune I to The Void and Second Contact II Flashpoint that disrupted the Antigonid economy. Strangely though, despite the setback, the Antigonids still had the power to take True Sight from HOP. The Xenon held Faulty Logic I. Frontier Edge was de-facto a Xenon system despite not putting the effort to complete their defence station there. And just as I was about to finish the save, the Xenon broke through the defence station near Tharka's Cascade XV in Hatikvah's Choice I and began to pour into there.

This looks promising. Though there's also the chance that I got fortunate and got a seed that had a very strong Xenon, so I'm going to do two more just to see if this one was a fluke or not.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by Ketraar » Sat, 25. May 24, 00:05

PersonyPerson wrote:
Fri, 24. May 24, 23:03
This looks promising. Though there's also the chance that I got fortunate and got a seed that had a very strong Xenon, so I'm going to do two more just to see if this one was a fluke or not.
The seed doesn't really define the strength of Xenon, their stuff is pretty much set with little wiggle room. Everything else will have much more impact, for example what the Terran do makes a big difference usually. In general from what you report it does sound like OK, even if you have a different "painting of the map". Its one of the common outcomes (ZYA struggling and TEL taking stuff), but I don't see a case yet where there is either a Xenon taking over everything or completely disappearing (without player intervention).

Thanks for the feedback.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Sat, 25. May 24, 15:14

AI only save 5 (7.00 Beta 6) - 68H elapsed (before stopping)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rH28Mt ... sp=sharing

This save was more in line with what was inferred. The areas that were chaotic were inverted from the AI Only 4 save. Overall though, the Xenon did a tad better than the previous one.

I wasn't present to observe all the shenanigans that occur at the start of a save, but the Xenon took the Turquoise Sea sectors and ended up contesting Company Regard. Raids from this direction also penetrate into Hewa's Twin I and II. The Xenon retained both Matrix #451 and #9, and are contesting Fires of Defeat. Raids from this area end up penetrating Two Grand (a lot of the stations here seem to have been wiped), Open Market, Profit Center Alpha, Family Tkr and Tharka's Ravine XXIV. Anything that gets into Ianamus Zura IV dies very quickly by Teladi/MIN hands. Tharka's Ravine IV died, but this time I watched its demise in real time. For what ever reason, the defending garrison with a K as the lead ship, decided to pack up and leave with the intent of "Restocking subordinates" from another area of Xenon space, by going through Free Families space and eventually getting caught and dying. The system was left defenceless and then a Terran Battlegroup must have noticed the weakness came to wipe the sector out.

Zyarth front is Status quo across the board. From most affected last save, to one of the least affected this one (This level of randomness greatly enhances replayability imo). Occasionally a K seems to slip through the defences and wipe out multiple stations at a time, but overall it's quiet. The attacks from Tharka's Cascade XV to Family Zhin get contained. Zyarth's main battle is with the Argon over Zyarth's Dominion X.

The Paranid lost Litany of Fury IX, but the Xenon haven't taken it either. The Paranid still have Litany of Fury XII and anything getting into Wretched Skies X gets contained, so the neighbouring Zyarth Sectors are mostly Xenon free.

The Savage Spur II-Getsu Fune area is status quo. I keep forgetting to mention this front because of how often this is the case. The Hatikvah's Choice I defence station also died, but the Xenon there still get repelled by (mostly) Argon ships.

The Xenon's weakest front this time is in the South. Frontier Edge in Antigonid hands, but it's not a solid hold. Xenon do tend to break through and take out the occasional station or reach The Void. The Xenon entirely lost Faulty Logic I, but are now in the process of taking it back. HOP build a significant numbers of stations in the system. but by the time I ended the save, the Xenon re-contested the system and are in the process of wiping out all of those stations (them being able to do this is also great).

I don't think it's a stretch now to say that the Xenon are not "weak" anymore. For me, this current 7.00 Beta 6 iteration of them is bang on. They're not a non-entity like they were in the earliest 7.00 Beta versions, and it's not almost entirely static like they were in 7.00 Betas 4 and 5 anymore. Whatever you guys did for Beta 6 seems to have done the trick. One more save, and if it's in line the others then I think we're good. At least from my perspective. After that, I might start a new Main save and see how it functions with Player intervention.
Ketraar wrote:
Sat, 25. May 24, 00:05
PersonyPerson wrote:
Fri, 24. May 24, 23:03
This looks promising. Though there's also the chance that I got fortunate and got a seed that had a very strong Xenon, so I'm going to do two more just to see if this one was a fluke or not.
The seed doesn't really define the strength of Xenon, their stuff is pretty much set with little wiggle room. Everything else will have much more impact, for example what the Terran do makes a big difference usually. In general from what you report it does sound like OK, even if you have a different "painting of the map". Its one of the common outcomes (ZYA struggling and TEL taking stuff), but I don't see a case yet where there is either a Xenon taking over everything or completely disappearing (without player intervention).
Yeah. I'm starting to understand with each new save, how changing a very fine margin in X4 can lead to drastic change or even break the balance entirely (The systems are so complex and inter-connected with a wide array of factors at play). There really isn't much "wiggle room".

For example and assuming I'm correct about this (which there's a high possibility that I'm not), I understand now at least why the Xenon don't just instantly speed build every defence station they plant, despite having the ability to do so. The Xenon economy relies on only 3 resources (Energy Cells, Ore and Silicon). When a new defence station is popped down, they fill the Energy Cells + Silicon quickly, but not the Ore unless certain pre-conditions are met (which I think is dependent on how much forces they have in the system). If this was unrestricted or had weaker pre-conditions or if the stations were given a higher priority, then I can easily see how the Xenon would be able to quickly snowball and become unstoppable for the other AI factions to counter.

In regards to the extremes of "Xenon conquering everything" or "Xenon getting utterly destroyed" I don't think players were fond the extreme middle ground either, of "Xenon doesn't gain or lose anything from the start of the game". How it plays now in this current Beta iteration is imo, the most ideal state for the Xenon to be in. Dominant in some areas of the map (but importantly not snowballing), but weak(ish) in others (but importantly not a rapid collapse) with those areas of dominance/weakness being different with every seed. It helps provides dynamic playthroughs with an engaging enemy.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Sun, 26. May 24, 03:58

Good to hear about the improvements. But the Xenon in Matrix 9 being wiped without player intervention could maybe be addressed still, by e.g. beefing up defense stations there.

Also, a workaround for balancing would be to give the player the ability to strengthen the Xenon like they strengthen other factions.

For example, one could create a ship mod that allows player ships to trade with Xenon Wharfs, similar to the Yaki mod from the campaign. Then the player could do the balancing to their liking.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Sun, 26. May 24, 17:53

AI Only Save 6 (7.00 Beta 6) - 102H elapsed (before stopping).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QfgtCu ... sp=sharing

Of the 3 7.00 Beta 6 saves I've done, this one had the weakest showing for the Xenon, but still a better showing than the earlier Beta iterations. I also added the Boron for this one, but I don't think they made much difference to the overall landscape.

At the start, almost everyone on multiple fronts tried to rush the Xenon. The Teladi took Turquoise Sea surprisingly quickly. HOP pushed hard into Faulty Logic I destroying several stations, but ultimately failed. Zyarth pushed into Tharka's Cascade XV but got slaughtered, however importantly, a lot of Xenon capital ships were destroyed, which reduced their ability to push.

By the end of the save, Scale Plate Green in it's entirety was taken by the Teladi. However, the Xenon did better near Matrix #451/9. They took Family Tkr, and contesting Tharka's Ravine XXIV. They were also contesting Fires of Defeat, but a Teladi battlegroup cleared all their stations. Raids penetrate into all surrounding sectors except Ianamus Zura IV where nothing gets through.

The rest of the map is Status Quo. Raids get into The Void and disrupt the Antigonid trade routes, but no major pushes. The station in Frontier Edge didn't get built for whatever reason. A shipyard was built in Tharka's Cascade XV to replace the one they lost in Scale Plate Green. I went a bit longer in this save to see if this was going to have a significant impact in the Xenon's strength there, and it didn't. If I were to keep going for another 48H on SETA, I could see the Xenon taking Family Zhin (as they started eroding the defences there before the new shipyard was ready) and start to become more of a nuisance for Zyarth in general. There were skirmishes in Faulty Logic I, so there's potential for the Xenon to lose that.

Other than this save being an example of one with a weak(ish) Xenon, there's nothing that I need to add that I haven't already said in previous comments.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Wed, 29. May 24, 00:13

I have followed PP's lead, starting a new game and just letting the NPCs do their thing for a while. And based on my observations, the reason for the weak Xenon are the overpowered Teladi. Already at game start, the Teladi are wiping the floor with the Xenon in Matrix 451 and in Company Regard. The Teladi ships are simply too overpowered in OOS combat, handily winning battles where they would be wiped out in IS combat. In addition, the Teladi lack any (adjacent) enemies from the other races.

So I would humbly suggest that the Teladi OOS performance of ships be slightly nerfed. That would solve the issue of weak Xenon in Teladi-adjacent sectors without directly disrupting the balance in other sectors. And by maintaining the strength of Teladi stations, there pendulum should not swing in the other direction either.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Thu, 30. May 24, 10:37

LandogarX4 wrote:
Wed, 29. May 24, 00:13
I have followed PP's lead, starting a new game and just letting the NPCs do their thing for a while. And based on my observations, the reason for the weak Xenon are the overpowered Teladi. Already at game start, the Teladi are wiping the floor with the Xenon in Matrix 451 and in Company Regard. The Teladi ships are simply too overpowered in OOS combat, handily winning battles where they would be wiped out in IS combat. In addition, the Teladi lack any (adjacent) enemies from the other races.

So I would humbly suggest that the Teladi OOS performance of ships be slightly nerfed. That would solve the issue of weak Xenon in Teladi-adjacent sectors without directly disrupting the balance in other sectors. And by maintaining the strength of Teladi stations, there pendulum should not swing in the other direction either.
The revamped Teladi capital ships have definitely made the Teladi a lot more powerful than before.

But it's not as if they are unbeatable for the Xenon now in every encounter and save. The way they get beaten OOS is if all the Teladi strikecraft (S/M ships) get destroyed, leaving a Teladi battlegroup with just destroyers+. The Xenon then come with their own strikecraft as a distraction, with a K coming as the firepower to knock them out one by one. In my AI only Save 5, what stopped the Xenon from pushing further into Company Regard and beyond was the defence station there, wiping out Ks almost instantly. It wasn't the Teladi fleet.

I think a big difference in the performance of the Teladi in AI saves 5 and 6 is the positioning and condition of the Teladi starting fleets (the "Everything else will have much more impact" part as Ketraar stated). In save 6 they had multiple fleets as well as a MIN one in Company Regard. In save 5, I think they only had one + the MIN fleet defending the south gate.

I'm going to do one more save for 7.00 Beta 7, but I still stand by what I stated in saying that the Xenon as a whole aren't weak anymore. Just a slight disparity with the Teladi's power throughout 7.00, which has probably given the aura for some of us on this thread that the problem is on the Xenon being too weak, rather than the Teladi being too strong (I personally think it's a mix of the two with the former now being fixed). The Teladi are the largest faction of the game (19 sectors at game start) with undoubtedly the largest economy with the fewest major enemies (and even friendly with SCA), but what offset this in pre-7.00 was their weak ship roster. I don't think there's a need to play around with the stats of their capital ships OOS, just reduce their standard battlegroup size by a single destroyer or two.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Thu, 30. May 24, 20:22

Save: https://easyupload.io/c2p07g

Huge issue! After less than 2 in-game days, the Xenon in Scale Plate Green already have all their miners and transports wiped out. Which means that this Xenon cluster is already doomed, with no way of recovering it.

Without any player intervention mind you! Such a collapse is way too early, and shows that the simulation is not in equilibrium right now.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Fri, 31. May 24, 20:10

Save: https://easyupload.io/7g3r51

Started a new game to replicate the above. And in this save, things are even worse :(

After 1(!) in-game day, the Xenon cluster in Matrix 451/9 has been wiped out by the Teladi. The wharf and shipyard are still standing, but there are no miners or other ships in those sectors that would allow the Xenon to recover.

Similar situation in Scale Plate Green. The Xenon only have 2 miners left, and those only supply the shipyard instead of the wharf, so the number of miners does not increase back to a productive level.

The Xenon in those sectors are catastrophically weak. This really needs to be addressed before the beta goes live.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by Casishur » Sat, 1. Jun 24, 02:17

Since I hacked the turrets and its repair terminal at 2 stations.
One was in Hatikvha's Decision right at the gate to Tharka's Collapse and one was in Split Territory in Famile Kritt right at the gate to Rhys Defiance.

I made sure that the defence stations were destroyed by the Xenon, as they were in such an unfavourable position that every ship was destroyed.

Then the Xenon flood Hatikva's decision, and even a few SE make it down to Green Scale.
Unfortunately, the Xenon are currently unable to complete their construction site ;-/

In Holy Vision, it's much more difficult, as there are 4 stations directly at the gate
of which 3 are production stations. There is no way through.
And who the hell gave the SE the order to always strike back when attacked. so it's no wonder that they burst at every station

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by PersonyPerson » Mon, 3. Jun 24, 01:12

AI Only Save 7 (7.00 Beta 7) - 78H elapsed (before stopping)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19c3tp4 ... sp=sharing

This time I wanted to simulate the experience and effects of a full playthrough, without actually going through a full playthrough, whilst making all the choices that would lead the gate network to be under the most stress and then see how the Xenon performed in these conditions:

So I formed the following conditions:
  • Still a policy of non-player intervention from the start.
  • Terrans are at war with Argon/Antigonids.
  • TRI would exist and be at war with all possible factions it can be within 2 hours of gamestart.
  • Heretics End would be contestable within 1 hour of gamestart.
  • CAB would exist, but the Zyarth option was chosen, leading to a vast array of stations in Free Families space that have limited purpose.
So if the Xenon performed poorly here, then something would be seriously wrong.

The galaxy was unsurprisingly a chaotic mess. Because TRI were at war with the Teladi, this meant that the Teladi were effectively cut into two at the chokepoint of Trinity Sanctum III. This helped the Xenon in the Scale Plate Green area massively, as they took Turquoise Sea and Company Regard. Whilst TRI initially conquered Hewa's Twin I, they and the Xenon started fighting over both Hewa's Twin I and II, with the Xenon winning and taking both. The Teladi were still stable in their more Northern territories. Matrix #451/#9 are mostly status quo, but the Xenon are contesting Family Tkr and Fires of Defeat.

TRI for a considerable portion of game had it going well for them in the Faulty Logic sectors after blitzing the sector at the start of the game, but eventually the Xenon fought back, kicking them out of Faulty Logic VII and re-contesting Faulty Logic I. The Xenon in the South took Mists of Artemis and Frontier Edge. With the Terrans at war with the Argon/Antigonids, their fleets were slowed down and had far more limited operational range. The Xenon took advantage of this and briefly held Getsu Fune and even The Void for a longer period of time. Eventually the Terrans took both sectors, only now at the end of the save have they started to clean up all the Antigonid stations.

Second Contact II Flashpoint changed hands so many times during this save I actually lost count. By the end of the save, the Argon managed to hold control with the Terrans contesting it, whilst fighting TRI there for the entire duration. Heretics End went into Argon hands.

Like with how TRI was strangling the Teladi, they themselves were being strangled at Litany of Fury and Wretched Skies X. They couldn't get any ships from the rest of their territories and began to run out of resources. The Xenon took both Litany of Fury sectors. They killed everything in Wretched Skies X, but didn't build their own station. In Zyarth territory, the Xenon are contesting Family Zhin. Hativkah's Choice I's NE defence station is down, so Xenon raids are common in there and even reach Argon Prime.

No doubt this is a very strong Xenon. On this run, forming TRI and causing the Second Terran Conflict made the biggest impact. Obviously, a player is not going to create all these conditions simultaneously during a proper playthrough, but this shows how during their campaign they could inadvertently strengthen the Xenon. More conflict = Stronger Xenon, Less conflict = Weaker Xenon.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Mon, 3. Jun 24, 03:30

PersonyPerson wrote:
Mon, 3. Jun 24, 01:12
No doubt this is a very strong Xenon. On this run, forming TRI and causing the Second Terran Conflict made the biggest impact. Obviously, a player is not going to create all these conditions simultaneously during a proper playthrough, but this shows how during their campaign they could inadvertently strengthen the Xenon. More conflict = Stronger Xenon, Less conflict = Weaker Xenon.
The problem is that, by the time the player has created these diplomatic conditions through the main quests, the Xenon in several sectors are already wiped out.

Hence my feedback that the Xenon's defensive posture needs to be strengthened so that they survive long enough for the player to be in a position to shape the universe to their liking.

For example, by:

- Weakening the Teladi starting position (reducing their offensive fleet size)
- Adding additional (defense-only) fleets to the problematic Xenon sectors

- Improving the Xenon miners' logic to focus on rebuilding a mining fleet more quickly
- Potentially, the Xenon's cost of producing miners could be adjusted as well, to ensure that undisturbed Xenon clusters can always recover by rebuilding their mining fleet.
- Xenon miners' default behavior could be adjusted to prioritize fleeing over fighting

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Thu, 6. Jun 24, 23:25

Gave it another try with Beta 8, but the Xenon are still being wiped out by Teladi forces right away.

I suspect that the improvements to capital ship AI has inadvertently made Xenon stations completely helpless against Teladi destroyers. The destroyers now consistently stay out of range of the Xenon turrets in low attention, so they never receive critical damage from them. As a result, one after another, Xenon stations are destroyed. Miners try to supply the stations and die in the process. Resources get wasted on trying to supply the stations instead of building actually effective K and I destroyers.

I would request that Xenon stations be buffed in some capacity to offset the improvements in capital ship AI. Otherwise these formerly mighty stations are nothing but a laughing stock for players and AI factions alike, leading to the observed balancing issues with Xenon being wiped out quickly without player intervention.

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by adeine » Fri, 7. Jun 24, 04:07

LandogarX4 wrote:
Thu, 6. Jun 24, 23:25
I would request that Xenon stations be buffed in some capacity to offset the improvements in capital ship AI. Otherwise these formerly mighty stations are nothing but a laughing stock for players and AI factions alike, leading to the observed balancing issues with Xenon being wiped out quickly without player intervention.
That is one of the big issues with regard to balance in X4 in general. Stations are harmless to players because you can outrange them and only really work against AI ships because they like to suicide into them. Similar situation with Xenon capital ships, where there's the binary choice of being out of range (you can safely kill them, they're harmless) or being in range (you're basically dead unless you can disarm the turrets shooting you in time).

I don't know why X4 is so reluctant to steal ideas from other space sims that have solved these issues (e.g. the Freespace series) where stations generally outrange capital ships and are deadly to fighters as well, with the way of dealing with them being to coordinate an attack and strategically disarm them with bombers/torpedoes first (for extra credit, having to distract turrets to protect the warheads) and then bring in the heavy ordnance. I suppose the AI doesn't really know how to do that, so maybe it'd just break the game?

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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Sun, 9. Jun 24, 14:43

AI only save, started in Beta 8, 3+ in-game days: https://easyupload.io/5bcmzr

Although the Xenon were immediately wiped out in Matrix 451, I am happy to report that the situation has stabilized. They are able to hold onto Matrix9 with many miners active and continued ship production. Furthermore, the Xenon continue limited offensive actions towards the North. Similarly in Scale Plate Green. The Xenon are boxed in, but they are able to hold onto their sector and maintain a large mining fleet and consistent ship production. So compared to Beta 7, the situation is much improved.

Based on my observations, I suspect that this was achieved by one or more balancing changes that are not in the patch notes:

1) The Teladi faction logic may have changed. It now seems to prevent them from invading Matrix9 and Scale Plate Green. Although the Teladi have accumulated enough forces to attack the Xenon in those sectors, they do not move in. Unless they are pursuing a ship, but even then they turn around and leave the system quickly.

2) The Xenon miner/transport logic seems to have been improved. The miners stick to resources closer to their Wharf, instead of sending them out into hostile sectors on suicide missions. It may also be the case that Xenon now prioritize SE production, given the numbers of them I have observed in Beta 8.

Another observation from the above save: The Xenon were able to break through in the North-West, so that Hatikvah's Choice is not being invaded from there and from Tharka's Cascade. Which turns out to be a bit too much for the stations in Hatikvah's choice. Based on this, I would suggest to somehow increase the strength of (defense) stations in the Wretched Skies sectors, in order to hold back the Xenon there for a bit longer in unlikely case that the Paranid's strong defense in Litany of Fury is overwhelmed.

LandogarX4
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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 14:57

another AI only save, started in Beta 8: https://easyupload.io/z21ioc

This save reveals several remaining issues:

1) Go to Scale Plate Green I: You will see an ongoing invasion of MIN and TEL destroyers (which means that their faction logic does in fact allow them to invade those core Xenon sectors, though it seems rare):

- The defense station is completely defenseless, since due to the improved capital ship AI, the destroyers always stay out of its range. The defense station does no damage whatsoever, thereby making it an irrelevant joke. Xenon defense stations need a buff to offset the AI improvements.
- The Xenon SE for some reason feel compelled to attack the destroyers instead of fleeing. This can lead to complete loss of miners for Xenon, resulting in a dead cluster. In addition, the miners do not deliver resources with which actual combat ships can be built. The miner's AI needs to be adjusted to flee from destroyers rather than attacking them.
- The Xenon have one I and 2 Ks just across the accelerator in SPG VII, but they are not called in to help. The Xenon faction AI needs to be updated to allow defense fleets to move between (sub)sectors when necessary.

2) Go to Emperor's Pride VI. The Xenon decommissioned a power plant without reason, only to build another plant close by. Similar report to this: viewtopic.php?f=192&t=462878

3) Although no Xenon clusters have yet been wiped out in this save, the Xenon are overall very anemic. They are no disrupting any of the trade routes and are nowhere able to break out of their sectors. Now imagine if the player contributed resources to the main factions, then the Xenon would be totally irrelevant and gone in most places. So further buffs may be necessary to keep them relevant and to address player concerns. As suggested before, this may be achieved by granting the Xenon additional fleets or by reducing the production cost of their ships over time. For example, for every 1 in-game day, the Xenon production cost decreases by 1%, up to some limit like 90%. This way the Xenon threat would grow along with player strength.

LandogarX4
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat, 1. Aug 20, 22:40
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Re: Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

Post by LandogarX4 » Sat, 15. Jun 24, 23:50

AI only save, started in Beta RC1: https://easyupload.io/links?id=https:// ... .io/jey9k7

- Go to Emperor's Pride VI. A lone Asgard totally (will) wipe out the Xenon cluster within the first hour of the game. Xenon miners engage the Asgard (!) instead of fleeing and all die. What the heck kind of AI is that? PLEASE FIX THE MINER'S FLEE BEHAVIOR. And what is the point of the Asgards wiping out systems before the player even has a chance to visit them?

Go to Scale Plate Green I. Successive waves of giant TEL fleets (will) invade the sector and wipe out all miners who have to fly through that bottleneck of accelerator and gate. Another cluster gone before the player can ever intervene. It seems that my prior observations about the Teladi being nerfed in some way were incorrect and the events observed just due to chance.

This issue of weak Xenon was raised almost 2 months ago and nothing of substance has changed. Players are still likely to end up in a generated universe with completely docile Xenon. Despite this being one of the most popular threads of the beta, indicating strong player concerns. It's not just here, similar complaints are raised on reddit. As broken as the game is after this beta, I have no interest in playing it.

Instead of putting all the effort into artificially spawning Xenon into the universe (existential crisis, near universally disliked, but still included, btw) you could have at least tried to fix the Xenon threat WITHIN THE SIMULATION WHICH YOU ALWAYS ADVERTISE THE GAME WITH.

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