[#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

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Hawkseyez
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[#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by Hawkseyez » Wed, 10. Apr 24, 03:47

So just dived into Beta on an old near end game save. loving it so far. came across the H for first time. was delighted, then not so much. it's a very cool ship and i love that's it's boardable. it will be very useful. problem is i only had to board with one marine and took 1 second. i maintained distance, threw my marine at it, it got aboard, i waited, it started it's assault and it was over in 1 sec. no fighting, nothing. i always felt the maintain distance option was too easy and should be removed but here is no challenge for seems a very capable ship. i previewed it when boarded it and flew it around. you guys can't leave that like that. cheers.

NightmareNight91
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine

Post by NightmareNight91 » Wed, 10. Apr 24, 15:04

Yeah it's laughably easy as is, even with fly by boarding. It should have loads of internal defences which could be represented by an artificial "crew count" that way it's not just 1 guy strolling in a flipping a switch to make it friendly.

roaani
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine

Post by roaani » Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:15

so... i just tried boarding 1 yesterday.
did my usual full marine launch (16 mid level ones)
then watched as they were all killed by no crew.
The Xenon H had 1750 defence strength and those 16 marines had just below 800 attack and got massacred by noone.

Mookau
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine

Post by Mookau » Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:56

roaani wrote:
Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:15
so... i just tried boarding 1 yesterday.
did my usual full marine launch (16 mid level ones)
then watched as they were all killed by no crew.
The Xenon H had 1750 defence strength and those 16 marines had just below 800 attack and got massacred by noone.
From the beta 8 patchnotes:
  • [Beta 8] Improved balancing of boarding difficulty for Xenon H (new feature in 7.00).
From a brief look at the updated code: what this means is that there are essentially a bunch of killbots on board that your marines have to overcome in a single attempt. These killbots are roughly equivalent to 3 star marines, with around 27 on board the H. If you fail a boarding attempt, then you have to send the next wave of marines through the killbot gauntlet again. Even if the previous marines destroyed some of the killbots in the last attempt, they're essentially fixed and repaired in time for the new boarding party.

empyreanchaos
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine

Post by empyreanchaos » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 05:42

Mookau wrote:
Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:56
roaani wrote:
Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:15
so... i just tried boarding 1 yesterday.
did my usual full marine launch (16 mid level ones)
then watched as they were all killed by no crew.
The Xenon H had 1750 defence strength and those 16 marines had just below 800 attack and got massacred by noone.
From the beta 8 patchnotes:
  • [Beta 8] Improved balancing of boarding difficulty for Xenon H (new feature in 7.00).
From a brief look at the updated code: what this means is that there are essentially a bunch of killbots on board that your marines have to overcome in a single attempt. These killbots are roughly equivalent to 3 star marines, with around 27 on board the H. If you fail a boarding attempt, then you have to send the next wave of marines through the killbot gauntlet again. Even if the previous marines destroyed some of the killbots in the last attempt, they're essentially fixed and repaired in time for the new boarding party.
That seems... somewhat overturned. Having more defenders than possible boarders that automatically regenerate seems unnecessarily rigged. I prefer if it was 16 3-star marine equivalents, even if they still regenerated, at least then it would be fair chances against a 3 star crew.

empyreanchaos
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine

Post by empyreanchaos » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 06:13

empyreanchaos wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 05:42
Mookau wrote:
Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:56
roaani wrote:
Sat, 8. Jun 24, 08:15
so... i just tried boarding 1 yesterday.
did my usual full marine launch (16 mid level ones)
then watched as they were all killed by no crew.
The Xenon H had 1750 defence strength and those 16 marines had just below 800 attack and got massacred by noone.
From the beta 8 patchnotes:
  • [Beta 8] Improved balancing of boarding difficulty for Xenon H (new feature in 7.00).
From a brief look at the updated code: what this means is that there are essentially a bunch of killbots on board that your marines have to overcome in a single attempt. These killbots are roughly equivalent to 3 star marines, with around 27 on board the H. If you fail a boarding attempt, then you have to send the next wave of marines through the killbot gauntlet again. Even if the previous marines destroyed some of the killbots in the last attempt, they're essentially fixed and repaired in time for the new boarding party.
That seems... somewhat overturned. Having more defenders than possible boarders that automatically regenerate seems unnecessarily rigged. I prefer if it was 16 3-star marine equivalents, even if they still regenerated, at least then it would be fair chances against a 3 star crew.
Bringing over a suggestion I posted on reddit regarding balancing the H vs. boarding difficuly:

Suggestion if Egosoft doesn't want it to be too easy to get these early game. Instead of making the boarding resistance high, make it impossible to board without the Xenon research from the data shard, or make it another part of that research tree (Terraformer command protocols or something).

Its lore thematic, requires you to have already destroyed an H for the data shard, and requires a certain amount of progress to acquire the materials to do the research. The boarding blocking code seems to be already implemented for the K and I, so in my uninformed opinion shouldn't be too much of a stretch for the H.

lordmuck
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by lordmuck » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 09:08

Ran into the same issue and thought there was something wrong but didnt question it at the time. Thanks for posting.
I am assuming its quite pointless to try cap it? Do the onboard kill bots decrease like other ships the more you damage and drop shields allowing it to regen shields to max and take them down again etc. I should have tried this but I moved on

Mookau
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by Mookau » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 13:56

empyreanchaos wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 05:42
That seems... somewhat overturned. Having more defenders than possible boarders that automatically regenerate seems unnecessarily rigged. I prefer if it was 16 3-star marine equivalents, even if they still regenerated, at least then it would be fair chances against a 3 star crew.
My comments on the 'killbots' and their values was based on a cursory glance at the code. I can't say for certain that my reading of the code was 100% correct.
I'd encourage people to actually try for themselves and see how it lines up.
empyreanchaos wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 06:13
Suggestion if Egosoft doesn't want it to be too easy to get these early game. Instead of making the boarding resistance high, make it impossible to board without the Xenon research from the data shard, or make it another part of that research tree (Terraformer command protocols or something)
The patch-notes also mention that TER Asgards got tougher crew. So the idea that it's to prevent it from being easily capture at the beginning of a game is probably about right.
But if you want them to have the research be a strict requirement, you'll probably want to post the suggestion in a new thread. This thread is about a bug that has been fixed, and will probably get less attention, especially for things that aren't directly about the initial bug.
lordmuck wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 09:08
Do the onboard kill bots decrease like other ships the more you damage and drop shields allowing it to regen shields to max and take them down again etc. I should have tried this but I moved on
There's a 'boarding resistance' value assigned to the ship that determines the amount of 'killbots' that it creates, but it's possible that value could drop as you damage the hull or similar. There's a bunch of new code blocks and variables added to the scripts in order to implement this change, so there could easily be stuff I missed - I doubt I caught it all on my initial reading.

Agamotto
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by Agamotto » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 14:40

I have captured 2 since the changes using 4+ star marines with 3+ morales.

One I ended up with 3 marines left.

My last attempt I lost a boarding pod so only 10 marines arrived with 818 combined boarding strength, the H had 37% hull left but still the full 1750 Boarding resistance.

A max marine of 5 star morale and boarding is 100 boarding strength so it would be 1600 vs 27 3 star killbots so 810 is due to 27 3 star boarding with the rest from about 3.5 star morale.

It would always be having to get good rolls and always result in massive losses.

If the Asgards are similar difficulty I can live with this I guess.

atsmith66
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by atsmith66 » Tue, 11. Jun 24, 23:57

Quick question. How do you get marines to that level? I have played full games (as a pirate) where I have captured an entire fleet full of ships (including the carrier) and never seen any marines reaching any significant rank. I think I had something like 20 capital ships that I'd liberated from the various factions as well as a fair few large miners and traders. I have certainly never seen even a single Elite marine.

I find in practice that the churn (ie number of veteran marines that die) is just too high for anyone to reach any significant rank. And, I only get this far if I start by hiring them from the Vigor so they come out with at least some rank to start with.

How on earth does anyone get a marine of any significant rank? I have always assumed that this aspect of gameplay was just never balanced by the devs and was for all intents and purposes just broken.

flywlyx
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by flywlyx » Wed, 12. Jun 24, 23:28

atsmith66 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 23:57
Quick question. How do you get marines to that level? I have played full games (as a pirate) where I have captured an entire fleet full of ships (including the carrier) and never seen any marines reaching any significant rank. I think I had something like 20 capital ships that I'd liberated from the various factions as well as a fair few large miners and traders. I have certainly never seen even a single Elite marine.

I find in practice that the churn (ie number of veteran marines that die) is just too high for anyone to reach any significant rank. And, I only get this far if I start by hiring them from the Vigor so they come out with at least some rank to start with.

How on earth does anyone get a marine of any significant rank? I have always assumed that this aspect of gameplay was just never balanced by the devs and was for all intents and purposes just broken.
Terraform will feature a special mission at the end that trains your marines.

lordmuck
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by lordmuck » Thu, 13. Jun 24, 01:01

flywlyx wrote:
Wed, 12. Jun 24, 23:28
atsmith66 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 23:57
Quick question. How do you get marines to that level? I have played full games (as a pirate) where I have captured an entire fleet full of ships (including the carrier) and never seen any marines reaching any significant rank. I think I had something like 20 capital ships that I'd liberated from the various factions as well as a fair few large miners and traders. I have certainly never seen even a single Elite marine.

I find in practice that the churn (ie number of veteran marines that die) is just too high for anyone to reach any significant rank. And, I only get this far if I start by hiring them from the Vigor so they come out with at least some rank to start with.

How on earth does anyone get a marine of any significant rank? I have always assumed that this aspect of gameplay was just never balanced by the devs and was for all intents and purposes just broken.
Terraform will feature a special mission at the end that trains your marines.
By that point in the game you wont need marines

Diroc
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by Diroc » Fri, 21. Jun 24, 06:13

lordmuck wrote:
Thu, 13. Jun 24, 01:01
flywlyx wrote:
Wed, 12. Jun 24, 23:28
atsmith66 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jun 24, 23:57
Quick question. How do you get marines to that level? I have played full games (as a pirate) where I have captured an entire fleet full of ships (including the carrier) and never seen any marines reaching any significant rank. I think I had something like 20 capital ships that I'd liberated from the various factions as well as a fair few large miners and traders. I have certainly never seen even a single Elite marine.

I find in practice that the churn (ie number of veteran marines that die) is just too high for anyone to reach any significant rank. And, I only get this far if I start by hiring them from the Vigor so they come out with at least some rank to start with.

How on earth does anyone get a marine of any significant rank? I have always assumed that this aspect of gameplay was just never balanced by the devs and was for all intents and purposes just broken.
Terraform will feature a special mission at the end that trains your marines.
By that point in the game you wont need marines
I think this is the result of a tone deaf opinion "Grind equals endgame." If you want one of these worthless trophy ships that can no longer be used as a slow moving miner, you will have to invest a lot into either grinding the Terraform mission or grind up a 4 star boarding party. Capturing these from Xenon space was fun because they had company. Giving the H a poke and luring it with it's friends off to a quiet corner to eliminate them one by one was fun. So was taking the H out of Xenon territory in one piece. That's over now. I capture ships because I enjoy it. With more recent changes, Xenon H just shoot at you if you are in range but don't stop or alter course. The changes recently implemented make me want to play less, not more.
There wasn't a problem boarding with just one marine. The problem was, Xenon H didn't stay deep in Xenon space. Retrieving an H from deep in Xenon space requires work. It requires skill. It requires luck. It does not require grind. It's fun, it's repeatable and does not require an ungodly number of hours levelling up a boarding crew for a single attempt. No one will say "Wow, grinding up those marines was fun!" I think this needs to be readjusted and re-evaluated as it's gone in entirely the wrong direction.

CBJ
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Re: [#2001]Xenon H Boarding only requires on Marine - adjusted after beta 8

Post by CBJ » Fri, 21. Jun 24, 08:39

If you want a general discussion about boarding amongst yourselves, please use the main forum. This forum is for feedback on the changes in the 7.00 Public Beta only.

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