[TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

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Diroc
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Diroc » Fri, 10. Sep 21, 12:53

I started messing with new Station Editor recently. It has become incredibly powerful. The experimental Cam config line should probably be the new default.
The Q/E turning keys feel backwards to me. Invert Q/E radio option perhaps?

Though the 3D rotation is absolutely amazing, there could be a default to off radio button and hotkey toggle to limit rotation to the galactic plane so new players don't have difficulty building and rotating station modules.
Just slapping down a basic station, rotation in the galactic plane only would be a useful option to have (Default) to avoid the requirement of proper perspective to get a desired rotation. This will trip people up initially. I personally would like to be able to turn it back to galactic plane rotation only for major portions of a build. Rotating stuff around without having to move the camera just so rotation functions a certain way then move perspective back to place the module and be sure it's in the right place is tedious. The majority of rotates I feel are Galactic plane rotates. Hotkey toggle would allow quick out of perspective galactic rotates where the camera position would give the wrong rotation axis

This 3D rotation feature though, is incredibly powerful. I Likey :)

Step sized angle rotations I find much more useful in my opinion while building. Tweaks with freeform, I will use very rarely, if ever.
I recommend Step rotation default with Freeform the hotkey for fine tune adustment.

Perhaps also an auto rotation step size set enabled to 15 degrees at rollout by default as well for new users. This covers the 45 degree Terran module angles, the 90 degree and the Split/Paranid 120 degree angles while making the angles large enough to be noticeable changes from free-form angle rotation, yet making things line up JUST RIGHT when desired by default. Early constructions, prior to these changes, getting a couple production modules rotated on the top of a vertical mounts (As most production modules were top mount) parallel used to be a serious pain. 15 degree step default feels like the more sane default to me for out of the box settings and new users when compared to freeform rotation.

https://imgur.com/a/Ey2MF8h

A Very compact Pharmaceutical Goods factory I threw together with the new editor.
Several of the production modules are (upside down) and are mounted on or to other production modules.

(Maja Dust) / Maja Snails
(Wheat) / Meat / (Spice)
Swamp Plant / (Space Weed)
(Argon Food Ration) / Argon Medical
1 of 2 (Water)

In conclusion: The new changes are incredibly powerful. I am very happy with the results.
The new experimental cam should probably be the new default.
The perspective based 3 axis rotation is going to trip up people initially.
I recommend a hotkey toggle for single axis galactic plane rotation (Default) Handy for out of perspective Galactic Plane rotates also.
Step Rotation by default 15 degree default initial setting recommended. Freeform rotation on hotkey (Shift Currently) for fine tuning. (Inverted from current settings)

Feature requests.

Opacity dragbar for placed module wireframes. They can be tough to see at times.

Opacity change or highlight of the module being snapped to when placing a new module. The new module jumps into place but currently the module owning the connection it's snapping to is not necessarily always clear. This becomes a serious headache when you are using lots of temporary modules for spacing or have a pretty large station with lots of connections. Highlighting the other module in a similar way to how sequences are currently highlighted while in a snap to event would be very useful. Module being placed jumps to position... Other module (Sequence Parent, Connection point owner) wireframe lights up.

Thanks for all your hard work. The Station Editor is a serious improvement.

dtpsprt
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Station Builder Feedback

Post by dtpsprt » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 06:18

While there are many improvements on the Station Builder comparing to V3.30 downwards there are three problems that lead to a lot of frustration in using it:

1) The semi transparent background. It serves no actual purpose and when it is in a light colour scheme it interferes with the design visually (modules are white right?). Better have it a matte black for absolute clarity.

2) The view should either change with the mouse or with the keyboard not both. Given that the mouse is used to manipulate modules anyway it should better be keyboard only, or a wireframe cube at the top right (unused space) should be used with the mouse for this function.

3) There should be context menu entries added for simple tasks of manipulating modules especially "tilt 180 vertical" and "tilt 90 degrees vertical", also "rotate 90 degrees clockwise" and "rotate 90 degrees counterclockwise"

SpaceCadet11864
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

So it definitely adds a lot more flexibility, and with the added flexibility comes an increase in learning curve. While this update is the step in the right direction, I'm hoping Egosoft can iterate on this and add more improvements down the line.

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.

Of course there are many ways to solve the issues, but I think it would make things easier and still retain the added flexibility you added with this amazing update.

Diroc
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Diroc » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:11

SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.
Rather than changing the mouse cursor, I think adding a rotation icon indicator about the appropriate module Axis centre line would be preferrable. It could stay up on the active module permanently and change to a different axis as the view is altered.
Even just highlighting the appropriate modue axis centre line a different color would suffice tbh. It's minimalist, non-obstructing, could be permanently indicated and may involve less work.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.
As for the +/- 90 degrees, You can accomplish the rotation with a 90 degree step size rotation set in the options (Gear), Step rotation enabled and holding shift while rotating. 90 works for all races in the vertical direction, and the horizontal for most modules. (The rotation works 100% but practicality not 100%) For Split and Paranid there is the 3 armed tee connector which is 120 degrees. The Terrans have a 10S dock that has 45 degree connection points about it's perimeter. That would be a lot of extra hotkeys. The dragbar in place can be set from 5-180 degrees.

The options menu (Or elsewhere) needs to state Hold (Shift) for Step Rotate to make the functionality more clear, but it's already in place.
It isn't properly documented anywhere in-game. (But it would be useful in beta so testers know what they are working with.)
The implementation is there WELL beyond what you are looking for. Sadly the documentation telling you so is missing.

Perhaps clicking the question mark next to the back arrow and x in the top right of the screen should pop up an indexed keys cheat sheet.
Or one better.
Like a webpage manual with back (Up one context level) and choices to descend down to through various context menus. Having it open on an assumed page (Builder) for instance while in the builder.

SpaceCadet11864
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 15:57

Diroc wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:11
SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.
Rather than changing the mouse cursor, I think adding a rotation icon indicator about the appropriate module Axis centre line would be preferrable. It could stay up on the active module permanently and change to a different axis as the view is altered.
Even just highlighting the appropriate modue axis centre line a different color would suffice tbh. It's minimalist, non-obstructing, could be permanently indicated and may involve less work.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.
As for the +/- 90 degrees, You can accomplish the rotation with a 90 degree step size rotation set in the options (Gear), Step rotation enabled and holding shift while rotating. 90 works for all races in the vertical direction, and the horizontal for most modules. (The rotation works 100% but practicality not 100%) For Split and Paranid there is the 3 armed tee connector which is 120 degrees. The Terrans have a 10S dock that has 45 degree connection points about it's perimeter. That would be a lot of extra hotkeys. The dragbar in place can be set from 5-180 degrees.

The options menu (Or elsewhere) needs to state Hold (Shift) for Step Rotate to make the functionality more clear, but it's already in place.
It isn't properly documented anywhere in-game. (But it would be useful in beta so testers know what they are working with.)
The implementation is there WELL beyond what you are looking for. Sadly the documentation telling you so is missing.

Perhaps clicking the question mark next to the back arrow and x in the top right of the screen should pop up an indexed keys cheat sheet.
Or one better.
Like a webpage manual with back (Up one context level) and choices to descend down to through various context menus. Having it open on an assumed page (Builder) for instance while in the builder.
Really the icon is an example, anything that shows feedback to the user that is clear and concise will work. As for holding shift, I read about that but I though tit was 15 degrees? I wasn't awar of the dragbar. Obviously there's a lot more to it than I thought, again, the UX should show user feedback.

I also don't think the extra hotkeys would be a problem, there's plenty of games that I've played that do this and it doesn't cause any issues. Empyrion uses Ins, Del, Home, End, PgUp, and PgDown for rotating build pieces, I personally would love the hotkerys, and X4 already has context based hotkeys.

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Wed, 15. Sep 21, 10:58

DocAce wrote:
Tue, 27. Jul 21, 12:10
The most recent update to 4.10 adds a new way to control the camera in the Station Editor.

In order to switch to the experimental free camera controls in the Station Editor, add the following to your config.xml (located in \Documents\Egosoft\X4\YourSteamID):
<stationeditor_freecam>true</stationeditor_freecam>
DocAce what's the recommendation for those of us who participated, now that 4.10 is public out of beta, do we ..

Remove the line from config.xml
Or, does the game now ignore the line
Or, does the game now have this line as default
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Diroc
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Diroc » Wed, 15. Sep 21, 22:23

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 10:58
DocAce wrote:
Tue, 27. Jul 21, 12:10
The most recent update to 4.10 adds a new way to control the camera in the Station Editor.

In order to switch to the experimental free camera controls in the Station Editor, add the following to your config.xml (located in \Documents\Egosoft\X4\YourSteamID):
<stationeditor_freecam>true</stationeditor_freecam>
DocAce what's the recommendation for those of us who participated, now that 4.10 is public out of beta, do we ..

Remove the line from config.xml
Or, does the game now ignore the line
Or, does the game now have this line as default
I'd recommend putting it in. (It's a line that you need to add as it probably won't exist.) I was building a station with a Terran 6 L/XL Hex Dock at the bottom of the map. The regular camera would always get "Stuck" and move slow while working within the bounding box created by the ship trails. The new camera doesn't appear to have limits to where you can go and seems to be very intuitive for getting around. It just works. Especially important when rotation is perspective based. You need to be able to place the camera appropriately for all your rotates. Moving the camera is much more of a requirement with the addition of the 3 axis rotation.
Doing so in a convenient, intuitive manner is a huge help.

As a reminder, posting feedback both good and bad is helpful in development of the beta.

adeine
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by adeine » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 07:02

SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33
So it definitely adds a lot more flexibility, and with the added flexibility comes an increase in learning curve. While this update is the step in the right direction, I'm hoping Egosoft can iterate on this and add more improvements down the line.

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.

Of course there are many ways to solve the issues, but I think it would make things easier and still retain the added flexibility you added with this amazing update.
These are both very good suggestions if we can't have 3D software inspired rotation controls. Rotation and which axis is active is definitely the biggest remaining source of frustration with the new station editor.

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 11:38

Diroc wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 22:23
alt3rn1ty wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 10:58
DocAce wrote:
Tue, 27. Jul 21, 12:10
The most recent update to 4.10 adds a new way to control the camera in the Station Editor.

In order to switch to the experimental free camera controls in the Station Editor, add the following to your config.xml (located in \Documents\Egosoft\X4\YourSteamID):
<stationeditor_freecam>true</stationeditor_freecam>
DocAce what's the recommendation for those of us who participated, now that 4.10 is public out of beta, do we ..

Remove the line from config.xml
Or, does the game now ignore the line
Or, does the game now have this line as default
I'd recommend putting it in. (It's a line that you need to add as it probably won't exist.) I was building a station with a Terran 6 L/XL Hex Dock at the bottom of the map. The regular camera would always get "Stuck" and move slow while working within the bounding box created by the ship trails. The new camera doesn't appear to have limits to where you can go and seems to be very intuitive for getting around. It just works. Especially important when rotation is perspective based. You need to be able to place the camera appropriately for all your rotates. Moving the camera is much more of a requirement with the addition of the 3 axis rotation.
Doing so in a convenient, intuitive manner is a huge help.

As a reminder, posting feedback both good and bad is helpful in development of the beta.
You did not understand my question to the Developers.
I have participated in the beta, which is why I phrased it "for those of us who participated,"

The reason I ask is because I always participate in the Beta's. So when the next beta comes out (whenever that is, this round is over), I want the game to be in the state they expect it to be so as not to cause any unexpected bugs due to a left over manually changed config.xml

So my question is, going forward, what default state should the config.xml be in regarding this unusual setting.

.

Having thought about it though - Anyone who has not participated here in the betas will not have edited the config.xml, and will be playing onwards with the public release. The game should update the config.xml if necessary for everyones benefit. So I think the best thing to do before first running the public release for the first time is to remove the line and let the game decide what should be there, then we are all set for the next round of betas with the game in its expected default state.

Having clarification from the developers who suggested the manual change though would have been good, instead of leaving us guessing.
For all I know at the moment the public release may have shifted the experimental station editor to become the standard editor without any entry in the config.xml needed.
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DocAce
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by DocAce » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 12:14

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 10:58
DocAce what's the recommendation for those of us who participated, now that 4.10 is public out of beta, do we ..

Remove the line from config.xml
Or, does the game now ignore the line
Or, does the game now have this line as default
It's neither ignored nor the default. You can leave it in and use the alternate camera mode, which is still an experimental and undocumented feature. And if things change in future updates then you're not going to have to manually remove the option, it will just silently be ignored by the game and not cause any problems.

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Thu, 16. Sep 21, 12:51

DocAce wrote:
Thu, 16. Sep 21, 12:14
alt3rn1ty wrote:
Wed, 15. Sep 21, 10:58
DocAce what's the recommendation for those of us who participated, now that 4.10 is public out of beta, do we ..

Remove the line from config.xml
Or, does the game now ignore the line
Or, does the game now have this line as default
It's neither ignored nor the default. You can leave it in and use the alternate camera mode, which is still an experimental and undocumented feature. And if things change in future updates then you're not going to have to manually remove the option, it will just silently be ignored by the game and not cause any problems.
Excellent!, thank you DocAce, very glad to be able to continue using the experimental editor (I was dreading needing to get used to the standard one due to the incremental slow down when zooming in to the bottom of stations).

Here's hoping toggling the editor type can be added to the in game settings at some point, and its no longer just a secret feature known only to us beta testers.
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flatbush71

Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by flatbush71 » Sun, 19. Sep 21, 07:16

To hard to control.
There needs be a way to lock out the undesired rotations.
What we have now is better.
One plane was hard enough
Three is near impossible
If this is implemented, please provide a way to turn it off

xWolfzx
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by xWolfzx » Sun, 2. Jan 22, 01:04

This is incredible, I just used this and it makes it so much easier, especially coming from space engineer and avorion.

A few comments:
Z / X key feels like Forward and Back, so suggest it to be rebinded or given the ability to rebind to W / S.
If you click a module and it appears in the build area in green highlight, moving W/A/S/D moves the highlight with you, but Z / X does not, suggest to make it so that it moves with you when you traverse with Z / X key as well.

Other then that it makes building so much easier!

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Fri, 14. Jan 22, 11:46

How do we select all modules in a build, if they are not all snap connected?
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by hyperflare » Wed, 22. Mar 23, 23:59

HUGE improvements, many thanks!

Definitely would appreciate ways to copy and paste modules.

The rotation gizmo can make it a bit hard to select the specific module.

It'd be nice if hotkeys etc would be surfaced better inside the editor

Wishlist:
[*] Able to partially load & save plans, for example I'd love to be able to export & import just my docking area without deleting what's already there.
[*] Copy multiple modules at once so they stay aligned to each other
[*] Better control of how/where copied modules spawn
[*] Ability to flip/mirror modules via hotkey

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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by CBJ » Thu, 23. Mar 23, 01:54

This test request is from several versions back, and as it says in the rules at the top of the forum, this is not the place for feature requests.

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