[TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

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GCU Grey Area
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 17. Aug 21, 13:41

DocAce wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 11:25
Does anyone think the free view camera is still significantly superior to the "standard" one after testing the latest iterations of both? If so, what in particular would you be missing if we were to remove this experimental mode?
Strong preference for the free view camera here.

For the sort of stations I tend to build it's pretty much ideal & would definitely miss it if it was removed. Makes it much easier to work on very large, densely packed structures (e.g.https://www.dropbox.com/s/edkv685qdxh16 ... 1.jpg?dl=0) if, for example, I can move the camera below the station & then look down, thus keeping the majority of the station (& it's snap points) out of view.

Adding this stuff (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkl3b2eqavxxm ... 1.jpg?dl=0) onto the bottom of that station was easy with the free view camera. Would have been much more awkward using the standard camera (building the level above it before the free view camera was available certainly was).

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Tue, 17. Aug 21, 18:08

DocAce wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 11:25
Does anyone think the free view camera is still significantly superior to the "standard" one after testing the latest iterations of both? If so, what in particular would you be missing if we were to remove this experimental mode?

I'm not saying we'll do that for sure, we're trying to figure out what the state in the released version is going to be.
Oh hell yeah dont remove the Experimental freecam .. I wasn't sure at first introduction, but since your fixes in Beta 6 Experimental is just about as intuitive as standard, plus I would now really miss the Experimental freecam's ability to manipulate modules "underneath" the station. Its been mentioned by others before me but the freedom you have when zoomed in down there opens up a lot more editing ability.

Standard now just feels like the games Map UI, where ships flying down below the plane of the eclyptic in the game just become very slow things and sometimes lose the plot on attacking targets. Except its you losing the will to live zooming down there and trying to move around.
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Eyeklops » Tue, 17. Aug 21, 18:20

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 18:08
DocAce wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 11:25
Does anyone think the free view camera is still significantly superior to the "standard" one after testing the latest iterations of both? If so, what in particular would you be missing if we were to remove this experimental mode?

I'm not saying we'll do that for sure, we're trying to figure out what the state in the released version is going to be.
Oh hell yeah dont remove the Experimental freecam .. I wasn't sure at first introduction, but since your fixes in Beta 6 Experimental is just about as intuitive as standard, plus I would now really miss the Experimental freecam's ability to manipulate modules "underneath" the station. Its been mentioned by others before me but the freedom you have when zoomed in down there opens up a lot more editing ability.

Standard now just feels like the games Map UI, where ships flying down below the plane of the eclyptic in the game just become very slow things and sometimes lose the plot on attacking targets. Except its you losing the will to live zooming down there and trying to move around.
Have you tried the beta6 standard camera? You can pan all the way to the bottom easily now by holding the left mouse button. I agree that prior to beta6 working on "tall" stations was a pain but now it's easy peezy lemon squeezy to get the rotation center where you want it. I did use the freecam during beta5 and can see where it's useful but overall feel more productive having my rotation center on or near the object I'm trying to manipulate.

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by alt3rn1ty » Tue, 17. Aug 21, 19:51

Eyeklops wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 18:20
alt3rn1ty wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 18:08
DocAce wrote:
Tue, 17. Aug 21, 11:25
Does anyone think the free view camera is still significantly superior to the "standard" one after testing the latest iterations of both? If so, what in particular would you be missing if we were to remove this experimental mode?

I'm not saying we'll do that for sure, we're trying to figure out what the state in the released version is going to be.
Oh hell yeah dont remove the Experimental freecam .. I wasn't sure at first introduction, but since your fixes in Beta 6 Experimental is just about as intuitive as standard, plus I would now really miss the Experimental freecam's ability to manipulate modules "underneath" the station. Its been mentioned by others before me but the freedom you have when zoomed in down there opens up a lot more editing ability.

Standard now just feels like the games Map UI, where ships flying down below the plane of the eclyptic in the game just become very slow things and sometimes lose the plot on attacking targets. Except its you losing the will to live zooming down there and trying to move around.
Have you tried the beta6 standard camera? You can pan all the way to the bottom easily now by holding the left mouse button. I agree that prior to beta6 working on "tall" stations was a pain but now it's easy peezy lemon squeezy to get the rotation center where you want it. I did use the freecam during beta5 and can see where it's useful but overall feel more productive having my rotation center on or near the object I'm trying to manipulate.
Yes, Standard mode you can right mouse n drag to get a side on view, then use WASD to go in/out/left/right, and left mouse to pan up/down/left/right - But there are limitations to how far zooming in you can go with the mouse scroll wheel before it goes into slow down mode, so you have to kind of reposition to get more zoomability without the swimming through treacle effect.

Experimental freecam imho is much better because you dont get any of that slowing down to "swimming through treacle" effect at all. Panning with the keys is a bit slower, but imho is a good speed, could be a bit quicker to be honest ...

Its a bit of a toss up between the two, and both modes will be a bit of a shock for anyone who has not participated in the beta when it goes live, they will all be dragging their brains through the mud with a slight learning curve same as everyone who has not played this game before and had to get used to the old editor for the first time.

But out of the two for me personally I would rather not have that gradual zooming slow down at all which is what Experimental mode gives us (with a few other small differences in which keys do what).
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Zloth2 » Wed, 18. Aug 21, 03:01

I tried turning off the free camera. When I used the default system, it only likes to go down to the half way point then it slows and stops. What's more, I got stuck on that plane! I used X to zoom down as far as I could, turned the camera some, then used X and was able to go down just a little more. After that, though, I was stuck and could no longer go up or down!

The free camera feels best to me. I'm used to using that sort of camera for taking screenshots. I don't even bother with the slide up/down option, I just point where I want to go, use X & Z to get there, then turn the camera with the right mouse button held down to point where I want to go. Being trapped above the plane doesn't work well for me at all. It's too hard to see what's going on near the bottom!
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by ttheobald » Wed, 18. Aug 21, 12:38

I've been fumbling about with rotation, and managed to crash the game - conditions were:

plot was in Argon Prime, 3.3.3.3.3.3
Terran 4x10 dock
Terran vertical class 2 under dock
Argon cross connector under the vertical
Terran single-pier capship dock extending from cross connector

I was attempting to rotate the 4x10 horizontally, which ended up defaulting somehow to a vertical roll.

I then re-oriented it to about where I thought it should be, and then tried the roll again. Couldn't get it right.

At this point, the dock somehow got messed up and didn't display (the reserved pathing for ships did display, but the building materials did not).

Hit delete, said yes I want to discard changes. Nothing happened.

I hit delete again, said yes I want to discard changes. This exited me out of the station-builder and back into the corridor of the ship I was on, but the game was frozen.

After a few moments the entire game evaporated without any crash message.

I'm re-loading to the last good save now.

T

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ubuntufreakdragon
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Sun, 22. Aug 21, 13:52

There should be an option to disable the auto rotation on snapping if the module doesn't fit.
I often snap to an intermediate position to be able to rotate the camera, but this disturbs the carefulle rotated part I want to place somewhere else.
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Vannacutt-BT- » Mon, 23. Aug 21, 21:33

Thank you for the new station designer, its fun to play around with it.

On the TER S/M Dock it shows a placeholder for M ship landing zone like the piers.
So you know where its up side.
Would it be possible to add it to the other docks?
Why? because for example the ARG 8M dock it is very hard to see where it is up side or down side.
For me it happend that I build a 3M6S connected to a 8M dock from the same viewing angle and
when it was build I have seen the 3M6S dock was oriented up side and the 8M dock was oriented
down side. Some how on connecting the dock it rotated 180° on its own axis.
Had to deconstruct the whole station to fix.

Another idea would to have a marker for all modules that is showing where the top is. :gruebel:
Like a red or colored area (Maybe its easier to program).
Best regards
Vannacutt-BT-


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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Zloth2 » Mon, 23. Aug 21, 21:54

There's indicators. The connections all have arrows pointing at +x, +y, and +z. If an arrow is pointed down instead of up, your module is upside down.
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Vannacutt-BT- » Mon, 23. Aug 21, 22:37

Uuhhhh :o I never really have noticed it :oops:
Thank you very much @Zloth2 for pointing that out :)
Best regards
Vannacutt-BT-


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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Axeface » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 03:59

Having problems with the new rotation here...

Did the increment of rotation snapping change? I think I used to be able to rotate something by 90 degrees, now it seems to be stuck to increments of 60 degrees??? Means I cant rotate something accurately by either 45 degrees OR 90 degrees. Is there a way to change the rotation increments?

As for the new rotation feature as a whole, once you have gotten used to the camera being the control for the rotation you can get what you need done, but it is really uncomfortable. Can we not get some kind of gizo for rotation instead?

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Axeface
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Axeface » Mon, 30. Aug 21, 04:13

Nevermind about the rotation increments question, I found the new settings button 8)

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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Zloth2 » Sat, 4. Sep 21, 20:01

I miss the connection lines showing where a part can connect while rotating. If your station is off kilter, those lines make it easy to see when your connection is right. The connecting node on the part does light up, which helps, but large stations have so many potential connection locations that the usefulness drops off. If it could just show the potential connection to, say, the 3 closest possibilities, I think it would help.

Major BUG:
1. In the Station Design Simulator start, put in a docking station of some kind.
2. Add another part of any kind.
3. Delete the part added at step 2 by right clicking on it and selecting 'remove.'
4. Rotate the docking station.

The docking station can no longer be selected! It isn't listed in the modules list in the upper right, either!
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ubuntufreakdragon
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Sun, 5. Sep 21, 17:45

It would be nice if the interface wouldn't be that performance dependent.
When editing a large station you have to klick multiple times for the game to register it once.
How about registering input in an extra thread.
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Diroc
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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Diroc » Fri, 10. Sep 21, 12:53

I started messing with new Station Editor recently. It has become incredibly powerful. The experimental Cam config line should probably be the new default.
The Q/E turning keys feel backwards to me. Invert Q/E radio option perhaps?

Though the 3D rotation is absolutely amazing, there could be a default to off radio button and hotkey toggle to limit rotation to the galactic plane so new players don't have difficulty building and rotating station modules.
Just slapping down a basic station, rotation in the galactic plane only would be a useful option to have (Default) to avoid the requirement of proper perspective to get a desired rotation. This will trip people up initially. I personally would like to be able to turn it back to galactic plane rotation only for major portions of a build. Rotating stuff around without having to move the camera just so rotation functions a certain way then move perspective back to place the module and be sure it's in the right place is tedious. The majority of rotates I feel are Galactic plane rotates. Hotkey toggle would allow quick out of perspective galactic rotates where the camera position would give the wrong rotation axis

This 3D rotation feature though, is incredibly powerful. I Likey :)

Step sized angle rotations I find much more useful in my opinion while building. Tweaks with freeform, I will use very rarely, if ever.
I recommend Step rotation default with Freeform the hotkey for fine tune adustment.

Perhaps also an auto rotation step size set enabled to 15 degrees at rollout by default as well for new users. This covers the 45 degree Terran module angles, the 90 degree and the Split/Paranid 120 degree angles while making the angles large enough to be noticeable changes from free-form angle rotation, yet making things line up JUST RIGHT when desired by default. Early constructions, prior to these changes, getting a couple production modules rotated on the top of a vertical mounts (As most production modules were top mount) parallel used to be a serious pain. 15 degree step default feels like the more sane default to me for out of the box settings and new users when compared to freeform rotation.

https://imgur.com/a/Ey2MF8h

A Very compact Pharmaceutical Goods factory I threw together with the new editor.
Several of the production modules are (upside down) and are mounted on or to other production modules.

(Maja Dust) / Maja Snails
(Wheat) / Meat / (Spice)
Swamp Plant / (Space Weed)
(Argon Food Ration) / Argon Medical
1 of 2 (Water)

In conclusion: The new changes are incredibly powerful. I am very happy with the results.
The new experimental cam should probably be the new default.
The perspective based 3 axis rotation is going to trip up people initially.
I recommend a hotkey toggle for single axis galactic plane rotation (Default) Handy for out of perspective Galactic Plane rotates also.
Step Rotation by default 15 degree default initial setting recommended. Freeform rotation on hotkey (Shift Currently) for fine tuning. (Inverted from current settings)

Feature requests.

Opacity dragbar for placed module wireframes. They can be tough to see at times.

Opacity change or highlight of the module being snapped to when placing a new module. The new module jumps into place but currently the module owning the connection it's snapping to is not necessarily always clear. This becomes a serious headache when you are using lots of temporary modules for spacing or have a pretty large station with lots of connections. Highlighting the other module in a similar way to how sequences are currently highlighted while in a snap to event would be very useful. Module being placed jumps to position... Other module (Sequence Parent, Connection point owner) wireframe lights up.

Thanks for all your hard work. The Station Editor is a serious improvement.

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Station Builder Feedback

Post by dtpsprt » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 06:18

While there are many improvements on the Station Builder comparing to V3.30 downwards there are three problems that lead to a lot of frustration in using it:

1) The semi transparent background. It serves no actual purpose and when it is in a light colour scheme it interferes with the design visually (modules are white right?). Better have it a matte black for absolute clarity.

2) The view should either change with the mouse or with the keyboard not both. Given that the mouse is used to manipulate modules anyway it should better be keyboard only, or a wireframe cube at the top right (unused space) should be used with the mouse for this function.

3) There should be context menu entries added for simple tasks of manipulating modules especially "tilt 180 vertical" and "tilt 90 degrees vertical", also "rotate 90 degrees clockwise" and "rotate 90 degrees counterclockwise"

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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

So it definitely adds a lot more flexibility, and with the added flexibility comes an increase in learning curve. While this update is the step in the right direction, I'm hoping Egosoft can iterate on this and add more improvements down the line.

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.

Of course there are many ways to solve the issues, but I think it would make things easier and still retain the added flexibility you added with this amazing update.

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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by Diroc » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:11

SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.
Rather than changing the mouse cursor, I think adding a rotation icon indicator about the appropriate module Axis centre line would be preferrable. It could stay up on the active module permanently and change to a different axis as the view is altered.
Even just highlighting the appropriate modue axis centre line a different color would suffice tbh. It's minimalist, non-obstructing, could be permanently indicated and may involve less work.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.
As for the +/- 90 degrees, You can accomplish the rotation with a 90 degree step size rotation set in the options (Gear), Step rotation enabled and holding shift while rotating. 90 works for all races in the vertical direction, and the horizontal for most modules. (The rotation works 100% but practicality not 100%) For Split and Paranid there is the 3 armed tee connector which is 120 degrees. The Terrans have a 10S dock that has 45 degree connection points about it's perimeter. That would be a lot of extra hotkeys. The dragbar in place can be set from 5-180 degrees.

The options menu (Or elsewhere) needs to state Hold (Shift) for Step Rotate to make the functionality more clear, but it's already in place.
It isn't properly documented anywhere in-game. (But it would be useful in beta so testers know what they are working with.)
The implementation is there WELL beyond what you are looking for. Sadly the documentation telling you so is missing.

Perhaps clicking the question mark next to the back arrow and x in the top right of the screen should pop up an indexed keys cheat sheet.
Or one better.
Like a webpage manual with back (Up one context level) and choices to descend down to through various context menus. Having it open on an assumed page (Builder) for instance while in the builder.

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Re: [TESTREQUEST] Station Editor

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 15:57

Diroc wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:11
SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Mon, 13. Sep 21, 17:33

1. Adding more clarity on how things rotate would be great. Using some sort of interface feedback would be great! For example, changing the look of the mouse cursor to a rotation icon such as this one while the right mouse button is held would instantly let users know that they can now rotate the building.
Rather than changing the mouse cursor, I think adding a rotation icon indicator about the appropriate module Axis centre line would be preferrable. It could stay up on the active module permanently and change to a different axis as the view is altered.
Even just highlighting the appropriate modue axis centre line a different color would suffice tbh. It's minimalist, non-obstructing, could be permanently indicated and may involve less work.

2. I would personally love a hotkey for rotate -90 degrees, and another one for rotate +90 degrees. I'd also like a couple hotkeys for selecting which axis to rotate on, one for +axis and another for -axis, moving along the index of x,y,z - or a hotkey to manage which one. with a little indicator letting me know which one I'm on.
As for the +/- 90 degrees, You can accomplish the rotation with a 90 degree step size rotation set in the options (Gear), Step rotation enabled and holding shift while rotating. 90 works for all races in the vertical direction, and the horizontal for most modules. (The rotation works 100% but practicality not 100%) For Split and Paranid there is the 3 armed tee connector which is 120 degrees. The Terrans have a 10S dock that has 45 degree connection points about it's perimeter. That would be a lot of extra hotkeys. The dragbar in place can be set from 5-180 degrees.

The options menu (Or elsewhere) needs to state Hold (Shift) for Step Rotate to make the functionality more clear, but it's already in place.
It isn't properly documented anywhere in-game. (But it would be useful in beta so testers know what they are working with.)
The implementation is there WELL beyond what you are looking for. Sadly the documentation telling you so is missing.

Perhaps clicking the question mark next to the back arrow and x in the top right of the screen should pop up an indexed keys cheat sheet.
Or one better.
Like a webpage manual with back (Up one context level) and choices to descend down to through various context menus. Having it open on an assumed page (Builder) for instance while in the builder.
Really the icon is an example, anything that shows feedback to the user that is clear and concise will work. As for holding shift, I read about that but I though tit was 15 degrees? I wasn't awar of the dragbar. Obviously there's a lot more to it than I thought, again, the UX should show user feedback.

I also don't think the extra hotkeys would be a problem, there's plenty of games that I've played that do this and it doesn't cause any issues. Empyrion uses Ins, Del, Home, End, PgUp, and PgDown for rotating build pieces, I personally would love the hotkerys, and X4 already has context based hotkeys.

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