[4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

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Shuulo
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[4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Shuulo » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 18:56

Hi,
There still seems to be a huge disparity in IS vs OOS combat. I know it cant match it perfectly, Im fine with that, but the case like below ruins any meaning of fleet composition, ships selection and fighter usage.

You can see in the VIDEO that HOP Odysseys is fighting 12 ANT Novas, so waht we see:
IS: they take down Oddys shields quite quickly and can harass it for a very long time without taking significant damage.
OOS: Novas start taking damage as soon as they go OOS and are dead in mere 15 seconds.


This is the savegame with this scenario to test
ONLY cheat menu is installed in the savegame to test the scenario, no other mods.

IMO This is a HUGE problem with the current version.

VincentTH
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by VincentTH » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 21:11

While I share your concern, this is nothing new. It is the result of balancing between IS vs OOS CPU utilization and combat effectiveness. In X3, there were many times when I received the report that a single M5 (Xenon scout) killed my fully-equipped destroyer M2 in OOS. I believe X4 OOS handling is way better compared to earlier versions of X.
I wish there is a better solution, don't take me wrong.

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Shuulo
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Shuulo » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 21:17

VincentTH wrote:
Mon, 26. Jul 21, 21:11
While I share your concern, this is nothing new. It is the result of balancing between IS vs OOS CPU utilization and combat effectiveness. In X3, there were many times when I received the report that a single M5 (Xenon scout) killed my fully-equipped destroyer M2 in OOS. I believe X4 OOS handling is way better compared to earlier versions of X.
I wish there is a better solution, don't take me wrong.
i know quite good what is OOS, I play X-games since X2 and modded both X3 and X4.
This is not a discussion thread. The disparity as above CAN be fixed with better/additional modifiers in OOS calc, its not possible to make it much better via modding as well because everything uses the same modifiers. Just adding a multiplier modifier based on ship size will make things more controllable and will help with modding as well.
Anyway, I posted this not for discussion, disparity like in video is game breaking for many players and I just wanted to point it out to developers, maybe there is mistake somewhere or they can improve it a bit more.

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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Falcrack » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 22:04

I don't know what if any factors go into the chance to hit calculations for OOS, but here are some factors I feel ought to be considered:

1. Size of target: L ships easier to hit than medium, which are easier to hit than small. Drones are hardest to hit, while stationary targets should be almost a guaranteed hit. Small components would have a harder time to register being hit, compared to the hull.
2. Current speed of target: Current target speed changes chance to hit
3. Maneuverability of the target: Increased target maneuverability (as seen in stats for each ship) could modify how well a ship dodges shots
4. Maneuverability of the attacking ship: The chance to hit of the main guns should reflect how maneuverable it is relative to the target. Main guns from capital ships in OOS therefore should almost never hit. Main guns of small maneuverable fighters should almost always hit a capital ship.
5. Distance to target: Chance to hit falls off with increased distance to the target
6. Speed of projectile: Chance to hit should increase as projectile speed increases
7. Turret tracking speed: The slower the tracking speed, the more it should struggle hitting fast, maneuverable fighters
8. Pilot skill level: Higher skill level = higher chance to hit

I feel like what needs to happen is these factors should all go into a final calculation related to the chance to hit each time a weapon is fired. Maybe this is what happens anyways. Regardless, I think more attention needs to be paid to how exactly these different factors are weighted in relative importance, and testing where in sector vs out of sector performance results are compared.

Falcrack
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Falcrack » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 22:04

EDIT: Main guns from capital ships in OOS therefore should almost never hit small fighters

Scoob
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Scoob » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 22:14

I have to strongly agree with Shuulo here, the IS vs OOS disparity is simply too great in many instances. A relatively small group of well-equipped Fighters (plasma) are a great tool for taking on L-Class ships (Destroyers) when the player is In Sector, however, Out of Sector they are quite literally worthless, falling easily to the same ship. While things can never be perfect - well, not without a severe performance hit no doubt - it really does need to be better. I know Shuulo has done a lot of work in his mod to try to make things as close as possible, in-line with his weapons changes etc., but it appears that there is simply not enough adjustment to make things work well.

I recall in previous long-term games, I've spent my time constantly having to teleport to sectors where my ships were engaged to ensure the battles turned out as they should. I.e. my Fleets were pretty effective In-sector, but would be slowly whittled away Out of Sector against the same foes. This gets boring and I've abandoned otherwise fun long-terms games because I've done nothing but watch combat so it turns out as it should. Fun for a while, but not forever lol.

Shuulo has sufficient modding experience that his thoughts on this really should be listened to.

Falcrack raises some excellent examples. In-Sector we might see the aforementioned Fighters in my example buzzing around their Destroyer Target, only really taking hits when on an attack run where they fly straight for a moment. Getting hit usually triggers some sort of evasion, so their shields recharge. Out of Sector on the other had, we see most, if not all, of the attacking fighters taking hits simultaneously, which simply doesn't happen IS.

This is important stuff as, at times, it's like we're playing two different games, with their own combat rules when comparing IS to OOS combat.

Scoob.

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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Raptor34 » Tue, 27. Jul 21, 11:17

Imo there should just be less stuff overall so more complex calculations could be used.

rubahax4
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by rubahax4 » Tue, 27. Jul 21, 18:25

I totally agree, and this big discrepancy needs to be corrected. Or give the players tools in their hands.

Here's my example.
Asgard (DKE-507) stands in the xenon sector, no engines, no medium turrets. Without presence, it kills hundreds of xenons of all sizes; in presence, it is useless.
He is also invulnerable.
Save ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Uk3K_ ... sp=sharing )

daymo12345
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by daymo12345 » Tue, 27. Jul 21, 20:05

although i dont have much to contribute here due to my lack of technical knowledge, in some cases i have found the OOS combat and IS combat and how it works is to my advantage as i have modded all my ships. hundreds of ships, weapons, shields, engines and chassis in my current playthrough ..it took alot of time to get all of the modification materials needed. and in the current way OOS works my ships will survive encounters for alot longer when i am OOS, like my mining ships, when they would not unmodified. and since it is impossible for me to be in sector for all mining operations i think it works well for me. in or out of sector fighters take down shield rapidly OOS when it looks like the capital my fleet is fighting has lost the use of some turrets. i have seen fighters take apart a K OOS in IS, just was a matter of when to send them into the fight. my military ships i.e carrier with all fighters have also been fully modified too and battles seem to work reasonably intelligently for me IS and OOS. giving me the chance to actually realize one or more of my ships is actually under attack before it gets blown up.

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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by xWolfzx » Wed, 28. Jul 21, 08:20

I wonder if this is due to the calculation of the main guns of the destroyers and asgard in OOS and if S ships fares closer OOS vs IS if the main guns are removed.


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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Mon, 13. Sep 21, 20:44

That's a shame, this is one of the main reasons why I quit playing X4 originally. I then picked up X4 again for Split Vendetta, and this caused me to put it down again. Once Terran expansion came out, I picked up X4 again, put a ton of hours into it as well, but ultimately the disparity mentioned made me put it down again.

I've recently picked up X4 again with 4.10, becuase it has some really exciting updates - but to see that this is still an issue is disappointing. I hope that eventually this will improved.

I never am expecting full parity here. I understand that it will never be perfect.

All I am looking for, is so the game doesn't force me to play IS or OOS, or make me think about different fleets for IS vs OOS. It's highly immersion breaking for me and ultimately frustrating to experience. I don't want to have to worry about IS vs OOS, I want the game to play similar enough to where I wouldn't notice unless I was really paying close attention.

I know this is more for beta feedback so I feel kinda bad mentioning this. But Shuul said something that compelled me to share my experience:

" disparity like in video is game breaking for many players" - Yes, it is game breaking for me.

I can really only ever enjoy X4 until I can start affording large fleets with capital ships. At that point I just get depressed. I am happy to see that formation flying has been improved, (it's not really improved enough for me at current state but I digress!) - but I hope Egosoft can take a hard look at this situation, and dust some old JIRA stories off the backlog (because this has been a problem since the beginning), and spend just a quarter putting some high effort in this. Just a quarter is all I ask. I really think it needs TLC and I know the devs can do it, it's just not being prioritized. Sure, some minor tweaks here and there, but changing the supported values is just not going to fix it, the underlying framework needs to be modified and its going to take a lot of work - but its something that I believe, would bring a lot of life(e.g., players) to the game.

Imuniser
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Imuniser » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 22:13

I do believe that the vast majority of the X veterans would be able to adhere to this one. There is a huge disparity between what you see on the map, OOS and what you find once you find once you get within 40-50 km of the "thing".

Left alone, a OOS battle can easily last for 30 minutes however once you get close the situation is completely different from what you saw on the map ... which begs the question: is it so difficult to corroborate the two?; I understand the need to $$$ to push for new features (mostly initially buggy) but what about the ongoing community getting gradually fed up with ignoring our pleas for a balanced game?

The player is a faction within itself. OK

The player needs to enjoy the game; do you really think that having the most belligerent factions (Xenon and the Kha'ak) attacking the player faction only when the player's assets come into their IIS attention is enough? It is not. Egosoft, you have had countless complaints about the AI of virtually all in-game factions ... let me give you an example:
ANT - over the past few years we have continuously pointed out that you can't have the top notch ARG faction behave like a wannabe entity; they are attacked by HOP and by XEN; you have made it possible for them to be attacked by TER as well without any visible change in their aggressiveness, econ policy or anything else; really? do you just push forward, cutting the player's means to make money just to balance the fact that you do not want to take on balancing the universe? You have lots of complaints about the TER being overpowered ... which they are and your response, instead of changing the universe is a hit on the players, so they do not get to experience the messed up universe for a long time, a ban on mods that do enable the player to see the balance flaws and NO work for a long time in actually changing the behavior of the factions that make the universe feel alive.

I am only left with one conclusion; sadly. The income from new suckers outweigh the income from genuine, long time addicts since I do not see any efforts in balancing the factions just a crazy push for new features.

I whish you well!

Nick

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Shuulo
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Re: [4.1 beta 4] Huge disparity in IS and OOS combat

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 22:39

Imuniser wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 22:13
I do believe that the vast majority of the X veterans would be able to adhere to this one. There is a huge disparity between what you see on the map, OOS and what you find once you find once you get within 40-50 km of the "thing".

Nick
Hile I agree with your post, most of it has nothing to do with original issue I posted - broken OOS combat. Lets keep closer to topic, this is not the game feedback thread, but a bug report.

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