VRO Yes or No?

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Free Radical
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VRO Yes or No?

Post by Free Radical » Sun, 1. May 22, 16:09

The Variety and Rebalance Mod. I’ve read about it.

https://sites.google.com/view/vrowiki/Home

https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/305

My understanding is that all the ship stats are changed and this sounds good, but how much is AI behavior changed if any? My understanding is that it is not supposed to change AI behavior. However I saw some discussion on Reddit about how difficult the game had become using VRO, how much tougher/more aggressive AI controlled ships were. I would think that if all ships are buffed, altered in the same respective manner, that the status quo would mostly remain unchanged?

The last Time I played, in 2019, I had built a squadron of about 10 destroyers, the Xenon were invading 2 sectors. i would engage in ine sector, basically destroy them, then move to the other sector and fightbsome more. There was a mother ship that was invincible in one sector, , at least to me it was invincible, so I woukd destroy the small ships, and this became a routine, fly back and forth killing Xenon, and this is what made me quit playing,

I much preferred, X3 where Xenon stayed in their own sectors, and the game’s AI seemed to keep them in check. OK, so maybe I did not understand the big picture, maybe I did not need to worry about them.

Can anyone describe the big picture as to how to manage Xenon?

As far as VRO, how much does VRO change AI aggressiveness if any?
How much tougher, does it make AI controlled enemy ships to fight off?

I’m really tempted but hesitant to use VRO, and since I’ve not played for several years I have no basis to compare. Maybe you could educate me on the subject? Thanks! :D

Malchar
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Malchar » Sun, 1. May 22, 16:31

It had been replied already, I think.

Regarding xenons threat, and from a strategical point of view, there is about no difference between VRO and Vanilla. Playing one or the other will depend of your taste or may be on other mods you want (did a VRO version exist or not)

however what you need first seems not VRO, a mods like nerf xenons or may be no xenons. I dont know if a xenons nerf for VRO exist, but you can search may be.

Point ; if you cant defeat a xenon I using 10 destroyers, may be it means you need 20.

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Free Radical
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Free Radical » Sun, 1. May 22, 18:35

Malchar wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 16:31
It had been replied already, I think.

Regarding xenons threat, and from a strategical point of view, there is about no difference between VRO and Vanilla. Playing one or the other will depend of your taste or may be on other mods you want (did a VRO version exist or not)

however what you need first seems not VRO, a mods like nerf xenons or may be no xenons. I dont know if a xenons nerf for VRO exist, but you can search may be.

Point ; if you cant defeat a xenon I using 10 destroyers, may be it means you need 20.
Thanks for the reply,

To clarify, 10 destroyers were plenty for one sector to handle the Xenon incursion where there was no mother ship, that was in 2019. But it was never ending. As soon as I left, they would come back. And at the time, it did not appear that the mother ship (correct term?) could be touched at least with destroyers. If that is incorrect please let me know. Can the mother ship be destroyed? How many ships and of what type does it take?

I’ve read something, somewhere that said there is a way to handle Xenon by feeding that Sector with supplies so the locals could better fight them. Would love to hear more about that. My point is that in this game, I don’t really want to spend a lot, most of my time dealing with Xenon incursions directly in combat if I can help,it, and would be interested in what strategy is used by experienced players to deal with them.

But the primary purpose of this thread is to ask about how VRO changes the dynamics of the game as far as AI behavior or aggressiveness. And does it have the defacto effect of making battles more difficult?

DeadAirRT
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by DeadAirRT » Sun, 1. May 22, 19:12

VRO does not make any changes to aggressiveness or behavior directly. It does change the balance so the number of ships needed to counter a xenon I for instance may be increased and stations are a bit weaker at defense.

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Lord Dakier
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Lord Dakier » Sun, 1. May 22, 19:15

VRO doesn't affect faction ship/fleet quotas and makes no changes to make factions stronger on a strategic level. The reason VRO Xenon's are stronger than vanilla is that their ships are slightly buffed to present more threat. I think you'll find that if you had an aggressive Xenon start in vanilla you'd probably find the same issues you had last time with VRO.

What I would recommend is perhaps using FOCW in tandem, you can customise each faction to make them stronger or weaker than others.

As for VRO, I'd absolutely recommend it. I struggle to enjoy combat whenever I go into vanilla, having been spoilt.

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Free Radical
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Free Radical » Sun, 1. May 22, 22:26

DeadAirRT wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 19:12
VRO does not make any changes to aggressiveness or behavior directly. It does change the balance so the number of ships needed to counter a xenon I for instance may be increased and stations are a bit weaker at defense.
Thanks. I just figured if your ships were buffed like theirs, it would be a wash. :)
Lord Dakier wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 19:15
VRO doesn't affect faction ship/fleet quotas and makes no changes to make factions stronger on a strategic level. The reason VRO Xenon's are stronger than vanilla is that their ships are slightly buffed to present more threat. I think you'll find that if you had an aggressive Xenon start in vanilla you'd probably find the same issues you had last time with VRO.

What I would recommend is perhaps using FOCW in tandem, you can customise each faction to make them stronger or weaker than others.

As for VRO, I'd absolutely recommend it. I struggle to enjoy combat whenever I go into vanilla, having been spoilt.
Ok, I'll probably restart this with VRO enabled and see how it goes. Does FOCW allow you to strengthen the sectors that are most effected by Xenon attacks? I'll assume so. Also I've heard it referenced that you can feed. supplies to sectors in need? Any links for this? Thanks.

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Lord Dakier
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Lord Dakier » Sun, 1. May 22, 22:38

Free Radical wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 22:26
Ok, I'll probably restart this with VRO enabled and see how it goes. Does FOCW allow you to strengthen the sectors that are most effected by Xenon attacks? I'll assume so. Also I've heard it referenced that you can feed. supplies to sectors in need? Any links for this? Thanks.
Not specifically sectors. FOCW will allow races to build more ships, they will still require the resources to do so. Faction Enhancer will provide a better economy for that. FOCW in a new game would help keep the Xenon at bay more so than save an already beaten down faction.

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Free Radical
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Free Radical » Sun, 1. May 22, 23:15

Lord Dakier wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 22:38
Free Radical wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 22:26
Ok, I'll probably restart this with VRO enabled and see how it goes. Does FOCW allow you to strengthen the sectors that are most effected by Xenon attacks? I'll assume so. Also I've heard it referenced that you can feed. supplies to sectors in need? Any links for this? Thanks.
Not specifically sectors. FOCW will allow races to build more ships, they will still require the resources to do so. Faction Enhancer will provide a better economy for that. FOCW in a new game would help keep the Xenon at bay more so than save an already beaten down faction.
After some thought and reading some more, this first "new" go will be with VRO off. I want to see just how easy or hard X4 is in Vanilla since I last played. Last time I quit because I was spending too much time kicking or trying to kick Xenon out of sectors I was active in. This is tempered by the fact I don't like working too hard in games. If it is ridiculously easy, than it will be a candidate for VRO, but it also has to be when I know what I'm doing. Thanks for your help! :)

Malchar
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Malchar » Sun, 1. May 22, 23:55

Free Radical wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 18:35

Thanks for the reply,

To clarify, 10 destroyers were plenty for one sector to handle the Xenon incursion where there was no mother ship, that was in 2019. But it was never ending. As soon as I left, they would come back.
In 2019, usually at hours 50, so begining day 2, I had 40 to 60 odyseus. I usuallt made group of 12. task force where on duty at gates . Most often at Hatikvah, Trinity III and bright promise because usually teladis stations at hewa I and Zura IV were destroyed around day 2 or 3. I had usually no worry with atiya xenons because HOP was able to deal with that. After that industrual power was growing more and more and game over occured around day 5 with total destruction of xenons. With split vendetta I had to send a task force at centrer profit alfa to keep an eye on the north gate.

A bit of nostagy ; belllow a classical shipyard around day 5, before the V4.00, and a fantasy station over km high.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... rbox=false

VRO ; VRO dont change AI behaviour, if Xenons are inept at vanilla, they will also be at VRO. The difference will be for cockpit players, fighting themself on the space battleground. However I feel you are not made of that wood.

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Shuulo
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Shuulo » Mon, 2. May 22, 01:08

Free Radical wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 23:15
If it is ridiculously easy, than it will be a candidate for VRO, but it also has to be when I know what I'm doing. Thanks for your help! :)
VRO was not to make the game easier or harder, but to make combat more engaging and varied while keeping approximate vanilla global faction balance. I think you pick the wrong question to answer by using VRO.
Combat is less player-centric though, so on tactical level it may be harder if you mostly replied on player ship to do a lot of combat.

Halpog
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Halpog » Mon, 2. May 22, 07:54

Free Radical wrote:
Sun, 1. May 22, 16:09
The Variety and Rebalance Mod. I’ve read about it.

https://sites.google.com/view/vrowiki/Home

https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/305

My understanding is that all the ship stats are changed and this sounds good, but how much is AI behavior changed if any? My understanding is that it is not supposed to change AI behavior. However I saw some discussion on Reddit about how difficult the game had become using VRO, how much tougher/more aggressive AI controlled ships were. I would think that if all ships are buffed, altered in the same respective manner, that the status quo would mostly remain unchanged?

The last Time I played, in 2019, I had built a squadron of about 10 destroyers, the Xenon were invading 2 sectors. i would engage in ine sector, basically destroy them, then move to the other sector and fightbsome more. There was a mother ship that was invincible in one sector, , at least to me it was invincible, so I woukd destroy the small ships, and this became a routine, fly back and forth killing Xenon, and this is what made me quit playing,

I much preferred, X3 where Xenon stayed in their own sectors, and the game’s AI seemed to keep them in check. OK, so maybe I did not understand the big picture, maybe I did not need to worry about them.

Can anyone describe the big picture as to how to manage Xenon?

As far as VRO, how much does VRO change AI aggressiveness if any?
How much tougher, does it make AI controlled enemy ships to fight off?

I’m really tempted but hesitant to use VRO, and since I’ve not played for several years I have no basis to compare. Maybe you could educate me on the subject? Thanks! :D
the only reason why iam using it, is because of the ships. in all my plays i never seen much of a differenz playing with or without .. the weapon change i dont like at all..even if there are some great weapons in it.
many ship changes like the lowered ammount of satelites and rockets and weapon slots i dont like.
but it has nice ships :P .. if there would be a mod or a way , where i could choose wich ships and weapons to use i would definatly only play with VRO

Valhalla_Awaits
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Valhalla_Awaits » Sun, 8. May 22, 06:06

VRO is an improvement in "almost" every way over vanilla X4. I strongly recommend it.

It makes capital ships into proper capital ships, so they are no longer effortlessly dispatched by a few fighters like in vanilla where capital ships are largely useless garbage and you just spam fighters to win every fight. Capitals finally have turrets that can efficiently kill fighters like a giant fly swatter. But they come at the cost of making the ship less effective against another capital with guns for killing capitals. Turrets finally make an actual difference in combat with VRO instead of being set dressing with special effects.

VRO also gives all ships internal shield generators (shields that cant be blown up) this doesn't mean much for small ships, but for larger ships its a big deal. The internal shields are responsible for 90% of the shield regen power, but only a tiny amount of shield capacity. The external ones are opposite, blow them up and the shields don't cease to exist like in vanilla.

Stations are much less overpowered in VRO as well, they have half the turret slots so they are a little more in-line with their cost to build compared to the absurd firepower they have.

Basically VRO just makes ALL ships finally viable, and each one compliments each other. Something Vanilla X4 does a TERRIBLE job at. And is unlikely to ever be fixed at this point.

Now that being said... VRO does have its issues. Those include some really REALLY ugly ship models being used that look completely out of place and need to be removed/replaced. Thankfully the latest update removed the argon titan using the model from X2, which needless to say did not look like any other argon ship. There is still the hyperion though that looks like a N64 era ship flown by starfox in the game, hideously out place. Then there are some fairly major imbalances among other newer ships, (A recurring theme here, old ships work GREAT in VRO, the new ones are balanced like crap though.) the new battleships are quite imbalanced, they generally lack firepower and get the crap kicked out of them by the older terran and xenon battleships which have far more firepower. Then you have the new terran turret capitals which are frankly just overpowered to a comical degree. With a frigate class ship thats on-par with some battleships and is also a mini-carrier all at once. (The mods developer says he plans to fix them though.)

Honestly, if you stripped out every new ship VRO adds, it'd be the most balanced version of X4 thats exists in my honest opinion.

EDIT: Latest patch for vro reports to have balanced some of the overpowered ships.
Last edited by Valhalla_Awaits on Mon, 9. May 22, 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

Malchar
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Re: VRO Yes or No?

Post by Malchar » Sun, 8. May 22, 22:36

X4 itself is an incitation to disbalance between Old factions ships and new comers.
I said 6 month ago battleships like the deimos or fulmar should have more firepower due to overbidding of new dlc COH in first line. Syn had twice more heavy turrets (+ spidle mount) than old factions s so called battleships. IIRC, it was answered me no problems existed and ships cost was rebalacing all of that . Quickly after that the number of turrets of these ship was doubled... Ship cost for game balance ; it is missing, players, usually swim in raw and money. Ships cost is rarely a problem. In my last game in less than 7 days, sustained rate of destroyer production was 30 each hours in my shipyard. It is simple I stopped to produce ships because game was laggy, and it became close to unplayable during large scale combat. Ship cost should not be to take in consideration, or at a very low level, for ship balance.

For VRO possible improvement, I could add ship physic. It is not always clear especially for mass which would condition all others parameters. Some emblematic ships had been updated like the Asgard, some other only partially. The Asgard which was 457 tons and is now around 1200 tons. Xenon I or raptor which were at X4 and are still at VRO 860 Tons. It is not very realist that it stay like that. I feel it is not a real intrinsec issue, but more likely a lack of time and tedious work to verify and update each ships,, and may be there more important top priority tasks to do before that.

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