Mod request

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iniochos
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Mod request

Post by iniochos » Fri, 19. Nov 21, 12:10

Request.
It is obvious that there is a big gap, regarding the way of managing aircraft in a carrier in X4.
That is:
1. There is no way to determine which aircraft are for interception and which for bombing.
2. There is no way (as far as I know) to group aircraft by type of mission.

In X3 there was at least the choice by means of Ctrl+number.
Plus there was a mod dealing with this issue back in X3. I cannot recall the name right now.

Ιs it possible to create a mod like this in x3, in the environment of x4 ?

PS
I Did not look in the forum to see if there is a previous request for the same issue

Thanks

Manawydn
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Re: Mod request

Post by Manawydn » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 00:07

Are you talking about CODEA, ANARKIS, or Litcube's in-house system? What I feel that fleets need most right now, is templates. I could try and necro a post from a year or so ago talking about it
Spoiler
Show
Version - 1.1
Proof of Concept - Mods that already address some of the issues, and/or utilize mechanics in the same vain.
"Player Restock Subordinates"
"Civilian Fleets"
"Fleet Docking"

All Fleet related behaviours, rules, formations in one location. All information relative to fleets/subordinates in one location, or accessible from said location. A system that is easy to use, learn, and manipulate. A system that helps shorten some time-consuming actions (when attempted en masse) A system that implements some elements already available via mods.

Suggestion - Fleet Management "Templates" that allow you to sort ships in to roles (subordinates, attack/intercept/defend, alpha,beta,gamma)
-Automates the sorting of selected ships in to respective subordinates, and groups (alpha,beta,gamma etc)
-Allows for "layering" of subordinates (Subordinate-inception)
-Saves the player about an hour of play-time in sorting and building a large fleet.
~~~~~~Currently it takes about an hour to sort a fleet of 400 in to a "large, complex fleet" The fleet in this case consists of 300 S, 100 M, 80 L, 20 XL.
^^^^^I have done this multiple times in a modded game, and it takes about an hour to sort 400 ships in to a single "large, complex fleet"
^^^^^500 is about the maximum my cpu can handle in a sector, so that is why the number is so high. I min/maxed intentionally to discover the soft-limits of the UI+time+cpu load. (8-core Ryzen cpu)

Subordinates+layering - Right now, one of the most time-consuming issues with creating a fleet, assuming all ships have already been constructed and are local - is dropping everyone in to their proper "roles" as a subordinate. This process can be automated via a "template" which can be saved. The template can simply sort the fleet in to a top-down pyramid with the Fleet Leader at the top, sorting everything else in to pre-defined rules.

^^^^^Example - Player creates a template consisting of 1 XL Carrier as the Fleet Leader, 2 L ships in "Attack Alpha", 2 L ships in "Defense Gamma", 1 Aux ship in "Supply Fleet Iota" and 100 S ships in "Intercept Epsilon" The player names the template "T-XX"
^^^^^The player then selects 1 XL Carrier, 3/4 L ships, 1 Aux ship, and only 50/100 S ships, and selects the option "sort in to template "T-XX"
^^^^^The script sorts your selected ships as "intelligently" as possible. Or, perhaps, as evenly as possible. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that it does it's best to re-create the template given for the fleet, whether or not it has enough ships.
^*^*^*^*^ The example above is simple enough, and doesn't need a template do create the fleet efficiently. However, if you want 1 XL with 1 L subordinate with 2 L subordinates, each with 2 L subordinates, each with 5 M subordinates, each with 10 S subordinates, you can see how attempting to do so manually quickly stacks in a linear fashion, especially when dealing with fleets of 100+ ships.

<Intended Result> - Streamline some of the UI elements in "MENUS" and reduce the amount of "mouse clicks" it takes to perform an action to it's lowest common denominator. Give the "freedom to choose" to the player, and allow them to essentially create a template once, and fill it as many times as is necessary (determined by player).
^^^^^In other words, "collapse" this set of actions in to a simple "template" which you can click and allow the cpu to sort for you. This UI addition/integration is intended to fix this type of issue.

New "Rule" - Engagement Range

This simple rule allows the player to choose whether or not subordinates operate within the entire sector, or a pre-defined set of ranges. For simplicity sake, I will label ranges as "Close" "Medium" "Far/Unlimited"

<Intended Result> Again, "freedom to choose" for the player. Simply put, it allows the player to decide whether or not their fleet splits up, or sticks together when moving around and/or engaging in combat. Currently, I see no option to do so without some heavy micro-management.
^^^^^For Example, right now if you have a fleet huddled together on one side of the sector/region, and issue an attack command against a station on the other side of the sector/region, your "attack" ships will leave the fleet's vicinity and make a bee-line toward the station. This results in unnecessary casualties. The only work-around that I know of is very micro-intensive. The workaround being that you would need to issue a "Move/travel" command to the fleet, wait for any stragglers to catch up, and then issue the attack command once the fleet is positioned nearby.
^^^^^Giving the player the option to set a pre-defined engagement range "collapses" the need for micro-management of the fleet in this example, so that they all move, attack, and intercept within range of each other, or go wild and split up. Player's choice. The idea is that different people want to manage their fleets in different ways, for different purposes. Likewise, the tools available are inadequate to get the job done, but could easily be integrated in to a sort of "template" as various options become available with crew level-up.



<<Overall (Intended) Result>> The player can more easily manage their fleets in the heat of battle, and thus, has more time to watch, participate, and enjoy content that may be more engaging to the player, without eliminating map-based gameplay mechanics.
^^^^^Streamline, improve, and integrate existing User-Interface in to a new "template" system, which allows the player to customize their User Interface to their liking, effectively adapting the User-Interface to the player's wants/needs/desires rather than coercing the player to curate their wants/needs/desires around the amount of time it takes to complete a task in the map/menus interface.
^^^^^Allow those of us who have Uber-Computers to min/max in a more timely manner.
^^^^^Allow for more real-time-strategy playstyles to develop in the game.

<EDIT/ADDITION>
Distinct "Build" "Sort" mechanics. "Build" will allow you to create a fleet right out of the box, and will automatically sort the ships in to their proper subordinate groups upon completion. You can always cancel this process if you want to stop, or do something different.
"Sort" will attempt to sort selected-units in to the template you desire. It will prioritize as follows - Exact Ship+Loadout -> Same Ship, different loadout -> Different ship, same type of ship (Dragon vs Nemesis for example) Anything that does not fit in to that convention can remain unassigned (Would need to manually be sorted if you want it in the fleet)

A system that, by design, is easy to change, and manipulate from both the developers (hopefully) and consumer's points of view. What do you think?

Full "Carrier" functionality with any ship that has a dock on it. Not sure how else to phrase it.
^^^^^L and M ships would keep the majority of their attack/intercept/defend subordinates docked (if possible) so long as they are not in combat.
^^^^^Any ship that has a S/M dock can "get supplies". Ships with docks would be able to open up trade offers, so that they wouldn't need to rely solely on getting the wares via stations.

M-ships with docks can grab supplies from a fellow AUX or Carrier (if nearby/same fleet/applicable etc)
M-ships with docks, due to limited storage capacity would only grab hull parts, e-cells, smart chips, missile components. Maybe drone components as well.

Currently the player can manually do this. This would just be automation of the same process.

L and M ships would keep the majority of their attack/intercept/defend subordinates docked (if possible) so long as they are not in combat.

<Example> Take a Split Cobra for instance. An M-class frigate with a single small dock. You give it some S-class fighter-subordinates and one S-class trade-subordinate. The trader would be set to "trade" via the commands "Supply Fleet" or a new dedicated "Trade" command. The trader does it's thing. Any S-class fighter that can dock will dock so long as we are not engaged in combat. Usually these kinds of M-class frigates can only hold 2 ships. one in storage, and one on the dock. The Fleet Leader (Cobra) can issue an order for the S-class fighter(s) to undock and make space for the trade-ship if it is attempting to exchange it's wares with the Cobra.

The necro post is pretty old, and some things have been addressed. I do notice that small combat subordinates tend to dock on their ships rather than simply get left behind attempting to follow the (faster) Lead ship. Something that didn't really function properly when this was written in the 3.x era. However, plenty of things have not. The excessive micro management needed to create a large (200+) fleet is still time consuming -even assuming all ships are already built and ready for assignment. It still takes well over an hour. If you want all of your Leader's L and XL class ships to have subordinates of their own, well, you need to MANUALLY place ALL of them EXACTLY where you want them to be, rather than being able to just 'set' a pre-determined subordinate group (such as defend Alpha or attack Beta) in the ship build menu. We can pre-set turrets now, which is nice, but what we really need that switch for is the fleet and the turrets, not just the fleet.

We need a better "Intercept" system. Right now, 4.1, interceptors will still
1- abandon the fleet because they are intercepting something
2- suicide against whatever they are intercepting because they leave the rest of the fleet's engagement range.
3- don't make threat assessments, one interceptor will suicide against a Behemoth if it looks at the fleet the wrong way.

Being able to set an engagement range from the Fleet's Lead (even nested leads) will solve this issue.
-Lead's engagement range always supersedes subordinate's engagement range. If Lead's range is 40, Sub's range is 60, then the Fleet's range is 40. This means you can take the sub out and keep it's original setting, while also respecting the lead.
-Lead's engagement range will always apply to all subs, up to the sub's max. If Lead's range is 60, and Sub's range is 40, then the Fleet's range is 60, and the sub will only engage out to 40 while any others in the fleet who are set to 60 will respect the 60 range. The heirarchy is based on the levels of nesting. A subordinate 2 levels down is subordinate to the Sub one level down first, and then the Fleet lead second. This is because the immediate commander for Sub level 2 is Sub level 1, and the immediate commander for Sub level 1 is the Fleet's overall commander. (This already exists in-game as-is, but point is that engagement range is not respectful of heirarchy, or something that we can tweak or set ourselves)
-Engagement range technically already exists in the game. It is the range of the ship's awareness/radar. If it sees it, it can kill it. If it can kill it, and it also happens to look at us funny, then the fleet will send all of it's interceptors out to meet it, rather than trying to figure out where the best spot to fight it is. If an enemy fighter targets the fleet, and there is nothing else nearby, then by all means, send a squad to go kill it. Range nbd (adaptive). However, if the enemy is a Destroyer targeting a single fighter in the fleet, then maybe it's smarter to wait until the destroyer gets closer, and then blow it up with your own destroyers+fighters rather than suiciding some "Interceptors" against it before getting close enough to. Wait for it... blow it up with your destroyers.
Last edited by Manawydn on Sat, 20. Nov 21, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.

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iniochos
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Re: Mod request

Post by iniochos » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 00:33

You are right.
I did my search in my old files (somewhere forgotten).
Back in X3 Reunion & Terran Conflict / Albion Prelude era, there were two related mods.
1. Anarkis Carrier Commands
2. Anarkis Defense System.

At that time these two mods largely filled the gap, regarding the management of a fleet (carriers)

Couldn't there be a similar mod addressing the missing management of carriers in X4? :?

Manawydn
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Re: Mod request

Post by Manawydn » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 01:12

iniochos wrote:
Sat, 20. Nov 21, 00:33
You are right.
I did my search in my old files (somewhere forgotten).
Back in X3 Reunion & Terran Conflict / Albion Prelude era, there were two related mods.
1. Anarkis Carrier Commands
2. Anarkis Defense System.

At that time these two mods largely filled the gap, regarding the management of a fleet (carriers)

Couldn't there be a similar mod addressing the missing management of carriers in X4? :?
I really want there to be an in-house system built in for it. I even laid out a template system that is easily configurable on the end-user side. It definitely needs alot of work, but here's the kicker. I wrote this a year ago, before I knew anything about X3, ANARKIS, or CODEA. Turns out that "my" idea was implemented by modders years ago on a previous game. I just want this design philosophy to carry over in to fleet management instead of being left in the "ship design" interface alone. I should be able to create a template, decide whether the template needs to fill exact to specification, or if a "good enough ai determined substitute" will do, and push a button.

Here is an example
-Create Template, in this case it consists of a small fighter squad. 1 M combat ship, 3 S fighters.
We already have templates for the ships in the ship design interface. It already exists. We will use that as a stencil.
We lay the stencil over the "Fleet" What is missing from said stencil is added. What does not fit, is either removed, or stays depending on the template's specifications.

In short, why stop at a template-style design for ships and ships alone, when we can do so for both ships and fleets?

Making a simple fleet or squad is quick and easy, but if you want to make squads for your carrier, well, forget it. You need to either use up more of the limited "Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc" spots, and/or spend well over an hour just building the thing.

Why do that when I can just design it once, push the button, either it says I can do it, or I can't. If I can't, it highlights why. I have tools to resolve it, such as a determining switch for whether or not we want the fleet to come from any shipyard, player only, or specific shipyards. We can have an off/on switch for whether or not we want the entire thing to be built first, and then organized and released as "ready for player use" or if we want the template to run and build/rebuild as things need replacing.

The base-level tools needed to accomplish this are already either in the game vanilla, or in mods. It's mostly just a matter of streamlining the fleet/ship management system in to something more templat-ey, customizable for end-user, and easily workable from dev's side of things. I can help with the end-user portion, but development is something I'm just now starting to really take interest in. Because of problems like this.

Egosoft has a tendancy to make their games as squad, business, and small fleet management games. Like a wealthy independent contractor who has many employees.
X-Players will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take it up to the "GALACTIC EMPIRE" level of gameplay. Even those who tend to stay small will want to explore the option at some point. X-games need to scale better in terms of their RTS/4X side of gameplay. There's an old argument on the forum I like to call "how many mouse-clicks" where people would talk about how many 'clicks' it would take to get a thing done. It always sounded superficial to me, like it's just an extra step or two, no big deal. Well now I get it. No big deal when you do it one or even ten times. Now try doing it well over a thousand. And that's just to rename your ships so that they are organized on the list. Now you gotta do it again to set X and then you gotta do it again to set Y and then you gotta do it again to set Z. Each a thousand times over. Would be so much easier to just set it once, hit "apply" and then send the Lead to go and implement the change for IT'S ENTIRE (Subordinate) FLEET.

Manawydn
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Re: Mod request

Post by Manawydn » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 01:28

"Couldn't there be a similar mod addressing the missing management of carriers in X4? :?"

Yes and no. Yes, I hope so, but no in that Egosoft really needs to take their games up to the RTS, 4X FLEET management levels of gameplay now that the more individuated stuff such as single-ship and small business conglomerate gameplay is pretty well ironed out. This is only an issue for end-game stuff, as no one is attempting to build a giant fleet within the first 10+ hours. Realistically 50+ hours since many of us don't know how to exploit capping SCA ships and settle for Advanced Satellite swaps to make that early cash. Even then, it gets to the point where I want to play more like a 4X game, where I want to actually go out and use the Asgard I built, including it's docking functionality and to include some ships with it, and by some, I mean a fleet. Not a tiny little squad, or a vanilla-style "fleet" consisting of an AUX, XL (carrier) one or 2 destroyers, and a handful of fighters. No. I want to make that by about 5x the size. 100-200 fighters is common for me. I mean, the XL carriers can handle that level of capability. a single Carrier+AUX can easily command a fleet of 400, but it can't keep those interceptors smart enough to draw enemy fighters without assessing whether or not it makes sense to do so at a basic level, and although much better at keeping Subs docked, is only part of the picture. Another part is building and organizing said fleet in a timely manner, and that also means/includes giving "carrier functionality" to ANY AND ALL ships that have a docking space. One thing that is annoying is that I can tell my AUX/Carriers to get some supplies, but not my Destroyers. I know, respect, and understand limited cargo space, and would not want Destroyers to carry a full retinue to supply, but having some components for basic ship repairs just seems like a given for any combat ship capable of docking another. After all, WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE DOCK IN THE FIRST PLACE? Any ship with a dock should be capable of repairing and rearming *Missiles* so long as it has the required cargo space+material, and likewise should be given the "get supplies" command for said reason.

Why does my Rattlesnake have any cargo space - at all - if it is not a trader, and thus not going to use it to trade for profit, and it can't use it for basic carrier functionality such as fixing it's subs and giving them more missiles?

Likewise, why does my Rattlesnake have any DOCKING SPACE - at all - if it is not going to use said docking space for basic carrier functionality such as fixing it's subs and giving them more missiles?

Why does my Rattlesnake, which has space for 40! FOURTY small ships, making said Destroyer -essentially- a carrier, if it is not going to use said docking space for basic carrier functionality such as fixing it's subs and giving them more missiles?

Why do non-carrier ships have such ridiculous levels of S-ship storage, yet no reason to use said storage?
On that note, why do non-carrier ships have such ridiculous levels of S-ship storage?

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iniochos
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Re: Mod request

Post by iniochos » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 09:44

From what I see you have searched a lot.
As for me, I do not have the ability/knowledge to make my own effort to create a mod.

I will give you a simple example of what I would like in a mod in the first place.
Let's say you have a carrier carrying 50 ships (S class).
10 of them are equipped with missile launchers, Dumbfire, Tracking, Torpedo launchers, whatever.
The rest is for interception. Mostly against S & M class.


1. grouping of those equipped with missiles etc, so that with one click you have selected them and you can give the target (let's call them bombers).
2. grouping of the S class ships that will escort the "bombers". Will protect them from any attack by fighters (S & M class).
3. grouping of S class ships whose role is to protect the carrier from attacks. Mostly against S & M class.
4. all aircraft must be landed on the carrier until instructed to dispatch.

all the above should be done with one or two clicks.

I think (just my opinion) is the first simple :? :gruebel: step regarding carrier management.

I really hope that what I mention/ask for is not much and complicated. :-? :-? :-?

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Re: Mod request

Post by Manawydn » Sun, 21. Nov 21, 01:28

iniochos wrote:
Sat, 20. Nov 21, 09:44
From what I see you have searched a lot.
As for me, I do not have the ability/knowledge to make my own effort to create a mod.

I will give you a simple example of what I would like in a mod in the first place.
Let's say you have a carrier carrying 50 ships (S class).
10 of them are equipped with missile launchers, Dumbfire, Tracking, Torpedo launchers, whatever.
The rest is for interception. Mostly against S & M class.


1. grouping of those equipped with missiles etc, so that with one click you have selected them and you can give the target (let's call them bombers).
2. grouping of the S class ships that will escort the "bombers". Will protect them from any attack by fighters (S & M class).
3. grouping of S class ships whose role is to protect the carrier from attacks. Mostly against S & M class.
4. all aircraft must be landed on the carrier until instructed to dispatch.

all the above should be done with one or two clicks.

I think (just my opinion) is the first simple :? :gruebel: step regarding carrier management.

I really hope that what I mention/ask for is not much and complicated. :-? :-? :-?
There is issue with it though, in that all those commands need to be done manually. So, try doing that 100 times and get back to me. If you have to do it once, better to be capable of setting it in a template menu.

I'll give another example of how current design works as opposed to how I would like to see it work, with regards to turrets since the concept is close enough.

With turrets you have commands like attack, defend, missile defense etc.
-Those are single commands that can only do one thing. There is no priority in them

SOLUTION:
Give it priority. In X3's Litcube overhaul there are turret priorities. You can set different levels of priority for Defense, Missile Defense, Attack etc.
Thus, you could set a priority as follows

SETTING: Defend Ship

Priority 1 - Missile defense
Priority 2 - Attack what the ship is attacking
Priority 3 - Defend Ship

In other words, instead of a trigger operating on one parameter, and only one parameter alone, it needs to operate via priority.
Moreover, it give the Player control over how simple or complex they want that system to be. For better or worse, it is up to them to figure out what works for their own needs. As of right now, you can't do that. You are stuck with Defense, and Defense ONLY under the current X4 turret system (a mod addresses this, but that's not the point, and the mod doesn't fully address the issue or need at hand, and doesn't give full control of customization/priority to the player)

What happens when you tell all your ships to fire their missiles - they do - and then they run out? Do we need to manually trigger them to come back home, or no? If yes, then there is an issue with micromanagement that will need to be addressed when you are dealing with 2 or 3 different fleets/battles, and need to figure out the best way to handle it.

Another good example is the settings in X4 when a ship comes under attack. You have "Escape" "Fight" "Flee" or "Use judgement" The 'Use Judgement' example chooses based on a list of priorities, such as how far away is the attacker, how powerful are they vs the ship that's under attack, does this ship have backup? Does the enemy ship have backup? I doubt all of these things are truly considered in the script, but the idea certainly is there.

I need a Fleet Commander who can actually command the fleet in my absence. 4.1 already addresses most of this with changes to the Auxilliary ship system. Next on that side of things is allowing "carrier functionality" to be added to any and all ships with a dock, so that they can take advantage of "get supplies" and keep their subordinates stocked with missiles and repair them. As of right now, why bother with a Cobra if it can't perform basic repairs on the ship that docks with it? Why does the Cobra even have a dock in the first place if it is unable to take advantage of it's use-case? Templates are the solution because they can scale with the player's scope. Someone who wants to play X-Freelancer can run around in a S/M ship all day and have a blast. The Arcade/First Person/Cockpit experience is fleshed out well enough in that there is not a whole bunch of tedium as far as micro management goes. Whenever it comes to fleet management systems, always remind yourself "Now do it 100 times over" because someone out there is going to print 100 Asgards because they can. Let's give them more reason to throw some other ships in to the mix too.

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Re: Mod request

Post by Manawydn » Sun, 21. Nov 21, 01:38

Everyone has a solution for their own situational needs.

A template is the solution for everyone's needs.

The defense command works flawlessly when it comes to defending the ship. But what if I want my turrets to attack anything and everything it can, but focus and prioritize on defending? That way it can shoot the station, and then if an enemy fighter flies by and attacks us, the turret can turn on the ship until it is dealt with. Once dealt with, the turret then turns back on to the station assuming nothing else is attacking. Having a Fighter Defense priority that prioritizes fighter defense over other targets maximizes your turret's usability instead of letting it just sit there because "Nothing is attacking US so there is nothing to defend"

Of course, with a template system in place, the player can do either/or, or any combo they can think of, only limited by the game's engine, and not the game's user-interface (and engine)

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Re: Mod request

Post by iniochos » Sun, 21. Nov 21, 09:39

Ultimately, apart from a mod, it is up to egosoft to handle it. Should address the gap of carrier management in near future (?) :)

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