Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

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Scoob
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Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Scoob » Wed, 3. Mar 21, 22:24

Hey all,

I use multiple mods which I think work really well together, except for an issue with excessive Xenon. While these mods might maintain a good balance in isolation, when other mods add additional ships / groups of ships too - which is what I assume is happening - things can get a little crazy.

The two key mods I've used for a while now are:

- VRO - changes ship, weapon and shield stats, I don't think it actually adds extra groups of ships.
- Faction War / Economy Enhancer Mod - rebalances Factions war and economics, I think it also adds extra groups of ships.

When playing this mod combination, sometimes the Xenon would dominate, sometimes they'd be destroyed. HOP pretty much always expanded quite aggressively. Your classic RNG balance, similar to Vanilla in many ways.

However, when I also added:

- XR Ship Mod - adds some classic Rebirth and X2 ship models, with a balance patch for VRO. I'd not expect this to add extra ships.

It was then I noticed that the Xenon would consistently dominate. Adjacent sectors would come under attack quite quickly. Any defending forces would be quickly overwhelmed as the Xenon would field multiple Destroyer-class ships at one time with hundreds of smaller ships making up an invasion force. A couple of Faction destroyers, if they're lucky, can take down a single Xenon K, but against multiple K's (or K, V, Q combos) they stand zero chance. If a Xenon I enters the sector, then only the Player - assuming sufficient assets - can tactically respond appropriately, the AI simply does not.

This ultimately leads to the same result in every single game using the VRO, FWEE and XR Ship Mod combination. I find myself constantly defending Faction space that they simply cannot defend themselves. Fun, sure, but I can't really do anything but combat, if the universe is going to survive.

It seems like something, I'm not sure what, is somehow doubling-down on the number of Xenon ships. Either directly, through extra ships added, or somehow putting the Xenon economy on steroids.

I don't modify the game myself any more, my last modding experience being with Rebirth very early on, so I can't really poke around to see what's what readily. I think these three mods add a great deal to the game, I struggle to play without them - currently testing Vanilla for the beta - but this particular combination always leads to the same thing. The player fighting against constant Xenon incursions, but ultimately doomed to lose unless they want to do nothing but fighting.

To be clear, I love each of these mods, but something is happening with the Xenon when I use all three together. For full transparency, here are the other mods I use, which I don't think impact the Xenon:

- Better Kill Credit (just extra money / rep as far as I'm aware)
- Better Piracy (aids for forcing ships to bail, aid with boarding)
- Mules and Warehouses Extended (trading / logistics stuff)
- Tater Trade (autotrade)

I tend to bail on my long-term games - often by Day four or five - due to the Xenon being a real pain, despite my best efforts, and my own "war fatigue". I want to be doing other things, like growing my economy, doing missions, exploring etc. However, I'm almost obliged to remain In Sector for the big fights to micro-manage my less than smart fleets. The 4.0 Beta OOS combat changes help as OOS combat is now slower-paced and more accurate, but it's still best to be In Sector.

Note: I get Capital ships of my own quite early in the game, usually in the first two or three hours, from boarding SCA ships. So, I'm fairly well equipped quite early-on, but this simply isn't enough. Plus, I don't want to just be about the combat.

Any ideas what might be contributing to the excessive Xenon aggression with this mod combination? Perhaps there are tweaks I can make? With instruction I'm happy to try tweaking anything tweakable, I don't expect a mod maker to chain their balance ideal for me. I'd just like to understand what causes the Xenon to dominate so with this particular combination.

Scoob.

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Shuulo
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Shuulo » Wed, 3. Mar 21, 22:59

XR shippack in combination with improvements from FE does it
shippack increases number of xenon ships to combat ships it adds to other factions, this doesnt always work and if faction stagnates economical Xenon just overwhelm them

Scoob
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Scoob » Wed, 3. Mar 21, 23:34

Shuulo wrote:
Wed, 3. Mar 21, 22:59
XR shippack in combination with improvements from FE does it
shippack increases number of xenon ships to combat ships it adds to other factions, this doesnt always work and if faction stagnates economical Xenon just overwhelm them
Thanks for the info. I did not initially suspect FE as I'd used it alongside VRO - and the other mods - without XR Ship Pack and the Xenon didn't go quite so nuts. I know if a Faction stagnates, FE gives it a resource boost to help out, but I suspect this might be a bit too late for a viable response. Additionally, until v4.0 Beta 10 I think, the Planetary Supply Ships (I think that's what they're called) would offload a boat load of resources at a faction shipyard but end up stuck, blocking the L-Class ship construction bays, causing more problems. This is fixed now.

It seems to me that the Xenon gain a slight edge which then snowballs as time passes. Xenon ships are generally significantly better than their Faction counterparts. Their Destroyers are better all-round, the P is a tough little bugger and ALL ships seem be benefit from better AI - due to them all having high-level "Pilots" aboard, I understand.

I think that the Xenon should be better ship and AI-wise, however, combining that with increased numbers seems to tip the balance too far in their favour. ARG get hammered particularly badly, especially if HOP take Second Contact II Flashpoint. As do the Split sectors. TEL seems to resist them a little better, but ultimately starts losing sectors too.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond Shuulo. It'd be great if the authors of FE and XR Ship Pack could comment too. It's these three mods that make the most difference to the game for me, so having them work well together is desired. XR Ship Pack already has a VRO patch, which is great, but I wonder if it needs to perhaps have an FE patch too, to refine the balance with all three mods?

I've not tested long enough to see if the OOS combat improvements aid the balance. In-Sector, the likes of a K is still really powerful vs. a Faction Destroyer, but perhaps it wins too quickly OOS? I wonder what impact the better Xenon AI has OOS too?

Scoob.

Manawydn
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Manawydn » Thu, 4. Mar 21, 01:32

I have all of these too, but my Xenon struggled until I turned down the rest of the factions in FOCW. I would suggest you do the opposite and turn up other factions, turn down the Xenon in order to tame them. Alternatively, you could join the fight yourself with a sizeable fleet. That seems to do the trick no matter what.

Scoob
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Scoob » Thu, 4. Mar 21, 16:49

Manawydn wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 01:32
I have all of these too, but my Xenon struggled until I turned down the rest of the factions in FOCW. I would suggest you do the opposite and turn up other factions, turn down the Xenon in order to tame them. Alternatively, you could join the fight yourself with a sizeable fleet. That seems to do the trick no matter what.
I'm not using FOCW, perhaps it gives the Factions a bit of a boost vs. the Xenon? I didn't actually think I could use FOCW alongside FE, I assumed they'd clash.

Edit: It looks like FOCW has been completely re-written since I last looked at it, and now it just adds extra ships. Might be a good choice for me to balance things out, as you have in your game. I'll snag a copy of FOCW and try it out next time I do a modified start.

Scoob.
Last edited by Scoob on Thu, 4. Mar 21, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

DeadAirRT
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by DeadAirRT » Thu, 4. Mar 21, 17:02

Scoob wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 16:49
Manawydn wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 01:32
I have all of these too, but my Xenon struggled until I turned down the rest of the factions in FOCW. I would suggest you do the opposite and turn up other factions, turn down the Xenon in order to tame them. Alternatively, you could join the fight yourself with a sizeable fleet. That seems to do the trick no matter what.
I'm not using FOCW, perhaps it gives the Factions a bit of a boost vs. the Xenon? I didn't actually think I could use FOCW alongside FE, I assumed they'd clash.

Scoob.
Blackrain basically reworked FOCW to be a highly customizable jobs mods that should pretty much work alongside everything. You are still going to run into economy issues though as it is very fragile.

Scoob
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Scoob » Thu, 4. Mar 21, 17:51

DeadAirRT wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 17:02
Blackrain basically reworked FOCW to be a highly customizable jobs mods that should pretty much work alongside everything. You are still going to run into economy issues though as it is very fragile.
Thanks. Yes, I did notice that when I went to read up on it again. I guess as the ships it adds are legitimate - i.e. built - then the economy either supports them or not, so to speak.

I'll definitely have a play with it to see if I can offset the total Xenon dominance I see time and time again - I just hope the performance impact isn't too severe, as my game plays really well since v4.0. VRO, FE and XR Ship Pack don't have any detrimental effects on performance that I've seen - even in larger battle - over vanilla.

Scoob.

Manawydn
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Manawydn » Fri, 5. Mar 21, 04:41

Scoob wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 16:49
Manawydn wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 01:32
I have all of these too, but my Xenon struggled until I turned down the rest of the factions in FOCW. I would suggest you do the opposite and turn up other factions, turn down the Xenon in order to tame them. Alternatively, you could join the fight yourself with a sizeable fleet. That seems to do the trick no matter what.
I'm not using FOCW, perhaps it gives the Factions a bit of a boost vs. the Xenon? I didn't actually think I could use FOCW alongside FE, I assumed they'd clash.

Edit: It looks like FOCW has been completely re-written since I last looked at it, and now it just adds extra ships. Might be a good choice for me to balance things out, as you have in your game. I'll snag a copy of FOCW and try it out next time I do a modified start.

Scoob.
You could probably add it in to an existing save safely if you want. Anyways, I think it's an essential mod because more ships help the universe feel more alive, so long as it doesn't cause the game to lag. It's also a good way to passively alter factions to give, or take away their edge in the game. I like it alot because it makes the Xenon go nuts with the right settings in place. I've always had issues with Xenon just getting steamrolled by TEL/HOP in my games since 3.1

Manawydn
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by Manawydn » Fri, 5. Mar 21, 04:41

DeadAirRT wrote:
Thu, 4. Mar 21, 17:02

Blackrain basically reworked FOCW to be a highly customizable jobs mods that should pretty much work alongside everything. You are still going to run into economy issues though as it is very fragile.
That's where DeadAir Fill comes in to save the day ;D

BlackRain
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by BlackRain » Fri, 5. Mar 21, 05:01

I am not currently running a VRO or FE game as I wanted to fully test my new Corporation Revised mod, but I will say this, with FOCW Corporations and my own personal version of FOCW (which is much heavier than the highest options of my current available version of FOCW) the economy is running brilliantly. I don't know exactly why, but it is. It could be a combination of changes in 4.0 plus all that the Corporations bring to the game (since they build more stations and have trade ships or something). So far, everything has been running better than ever before to the point I am seeing a good deal of action and excitement without using FE. Of course, I prefer the game to be over a much longer period of time whereas FE would make things happen faster and over a shorter period of time. For example, there might not be a major battle for a long time with vanilla, but it eventually does happen. A lot of activity in this playthrough for me so I am pleasantly surprised.

Take a look at the screenshot, there are 4 inquisition fleets (fully developed) in that paranid sector. All lead by a Zeus with several destroyers and many fighters, etc. You can also see a corporation fleet and a couple of their squadrons, some corporation stations, etc. And just so you know, that isn't a unique sector, many sectors are full like that with lots of activity. I even got to witness a cool battle take place between HOP and a corporation when an HOP fleet moved in to attack Second Contact and attacked some Corporate freighters. 3 Corporate small fleets came to fight them and it was a cool battle (3 corporate destroyers and dozens of fighters vs 5 HOP destroyers, and fighters)
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DeadAirRT
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by DeadAirRT » Fri, 5. Mar 21, 06:19

Manawydn wrote:
Fri, 5. Mar 21, 04:41
That's where DeadAir Fill comes in to save the day ;D
Believe it or not, I only use Fill for draining personally.
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 5. Mar 21, 05:01
*snip*
Most of the issue with vanilla economy is it can't really keep up with the demands in production of certain ship goods and movement of goods. Do your corporations focus their station building on resource needs of the factions? It sounds like you did a damn good job on it.

BlackRain
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by BlackRain » Fri, 5. Mar 21, 14:11

DeadAirRT wrote:
Fri, 5. Mar 21, 06:19
Manawydn wrote:
Fri, 5. Mar 21, 04:41
That's where DeadAir Fill comes in to save the day ;D
Believe it or not, I only use Fill for draining personally.
BlackRain wrote:
Fri, 5. Mar 21, 05:01
*snip*
Most of the issue with vanilla economy is it can't really keep up with the demands in production of certain ship goods and movement of goods. Do your corporations focus their station building on resource needs of the factions? It sounds like you did a damn good job on it.
Well, I do have them focus a bit more on the ship production factories. It takes time for things to really kick in. There was somewhat of a lull for a while but eventually things ramped up. My game is around 3 and a half days of in game time (so like 80 something hours). I think in between day 1 and 2 there was some issues with the economy, but eventually it cleared up. Most likely at that time a lot of things were going on.

jimy1
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Re: Query: Mod combinations that make the Xenon go nuts

Post by jimy1 » Mon, 13. Dec 21, 09:52

I think one overlooked contributor to xenon dominance is the XR pack's addition of a Kha'ak Queen.

Once they start appearing midgame it causes the collapse of the various factions mining capability. Their economies quickly follow.

The player just can't support the cost of fielding multiple destroyers to protect even the large miners. At least not in the time required before large segments of territory have been lost.

That said, I enjoy the game the most this way. It reminds me of x3's Litcube, facing a rolling tide of enemy you have no option but to build a massive industrial base to stop.

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