[Mod] Shields and Weapons balance overhaul 1.74

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thanos
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by thanos » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 01:02

This mod has become a must-have for me, for any sort of semi-challenging combat :).

Having said, that I think the Xenon HP buff is a tad too much. My Nemesis with 3x Bolt2 and 2x Torpedo2, firing Heavy Torpedoes2, needed close to 10 minutes, and about 60 torpedoes to take down a K. Each dual torpedo volley was doing ~8% hull damage. Meanwhile, I had killed off all of the K's turrets & engines, so it was just sitting there, being a bullet sponge.

Also, now the K turns on a dime, which is hilarious to see, but kind of defeats the purpose of a slow heavy ship. I know you did it for turret coverage purposes, but it looks rather funny. And the K turrets still hit for pitiful damage.

Basically the K is just a crappy ship overall, bullet-sponging it isn't making it better. It was crappy in Rebirth as well (very easy to disable). The I is a different story, but I haven't actually seen an I invade any sectors yet.

In short: consider making xenon heavy ships less bullet-spongy. There's no challenge to it, it's just tedious after a point. M & N (and P) are great though.

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by AngEviL » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 01:16

ausmcbain wrote:
Thu, 13. Dec 18, 08:40
loving your work mate, keep it up. Cant play without this Mod to be honest.
Thans for the support ausmcbain !
I did an update to 1.61! And Bl3ek, do tell us how your experience is like now with your behemoth.
thanos wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 01:02
This mod has become a must-have for me, for any sort of semi-challenging combat :).

Having said, that I think the Xenon HP buff is a tad too much. My Nemesis with 3x Bolt2 and 2x Torpedo2, firing Heavy Torpedoes2, needed close to 10 minutes, and about 60 torpedoes to take down a K. Each dual torpedo volley was doing ~8% hull damage. Meanwhile, I had killed off all of the K's turrets & engines, so it was just sitting there, being a bullet sponge.

Also, now the K turns on a dime, which is hilarious to see, but kind of defeats the purpose of a slow heavy ship. I know you did it for turret coverage purposes, but it looks rather funny. And the K turrets still hit for pitiful damage.

Basically the K is just a crappy ship overall, bullet-sponging it isn't making it better. It was crappy in Rebirth as well (very easy to disable). The I is a different story, but I haven't actually seen an I invade any sectors yet.

In short: consider making xenon heavy ships less bullet-spongy. There's no challenge to it, it's just tedious after a point. M & N (and P) are great though.
Thank you for the feedback thanos. Ahh, the neverending K balance problem, haha. I'll think what to do, and i am open to ideas. Thing is that i want to avoid making Xenon lasers stronger than the other races counterparts, i improved them significantly already by making them even. Lets say there is a mod for the player to build Xenon ships and guns, obviously you would pick only Xenon lasers for yourself and look at nothing else.

The sensible thing is to improve K as a ship somewhat, it has TERRIBLE laser coverage. Did you try it in 1.61, i improved its agility more. Well due to its crap turrets placements it has been reingeneered from its old purpose, haha.

You can also try Plasma weapons(M/S ships)/plasma turrets and the destroyer laser(L ship) against capitals. Xenon K is only a little more spongy than the XL capitals from other races, fighting a capital should feel epic imho. If their turrets get fixed by egosoft they should become more capable.
Last edited by AngEviL on Fri, 14. Dec 18, 02:05, edited 1 time in total.

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Requiemfang » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 02:00

lol I love the change log description of the Xenon K speed change. In all honesty it's a friggin machine ship it doesn't have squishy meatbag organics inside it which means it doesn't need to worry about inertial dampeners and can turn on a dime due to that. Machines such as Xenons I would think would be able to handle G forces a LOT better than any race since they are the machine itself and have no squishy physical presence.

Reaper507
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Reaper507 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 07:07

thanos wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 01:02
Having said, that I think the Xenon HP buff is a tad too much. My Nemesis with 3x Bolt2 and 2x Torpedo2, firing Heavy Torpedoes2, needed close to 10 minutes, and about 60 torpedoes to take down a K. Each dual torpedo volley was doing ~8% hull damage. Meanwhile, I had killed off all of the K's turrets & engines, so it was just sitting there, being a bullet sponge.
I guess your mix worse than 5x Bolt2, which kill K faster. Especially if they were upgraded for cooling.
I don't think Xenons have too much hp. They should be stronk and deadly. I would buff their weapon more.

bl3ek
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by bl3ek » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 10:42

Well I tried the mod last night.

Turrets are certainly more accurate - yay!

But now my fighters seem weak? I piloted one and sure enough, it took a lot of firepower to take down another fighter. MK2 bolters against Xenon fighter, ages.

Also, the L turrets on my behemoth turn at a rather fast rate, it looks a bit silly. Perhaps L turrets are too zippy now?

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by AngEviL » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 13:07

bl3ek wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 10:42
Well I tried the mod last night.

Turrets are certainly more accurate - yay!

But now my fighters seem weak? I piloted one and sure enough, it took a lot of firepower to take down another fighter. MK2 bolters against Xenon fighter, ages.

Also, the L turrets on my behemoth turn at a rather fast rate, it looks a bit silly. Perhaps L turrets are too zippy now?

Turrets needed the most help they can get, i pushed their agility as far as it can go. Ok, it should be fine if i decrease their turn speed to make it more natural as the speed increase vs vanilla is an order of magnitude higher. Maybe decrease turn speed of M by 20%, and L be at 2 thirds of what it currently is.

Regarding combat i made it last longer than vanilla, and also there are other weapon choises than bolt mk2, which was pretty much the only viable choice in vanilla. I think against fast fighers bolt mk1 or laser mk2 would work better, and if you find that is still hard to aim, laser mk1 has 20k bullet speed and still good damage.
Of course Bolt Mk2 has the highest dps among these, but you have a real choice depending your playstile, and pardon me if i say this, but skill too, if your aim (like mine too!) is not the best, try faster weapons.

Xenon ships have been buffed as well, much more agile and more hull hitpoints.

bl3ek
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by bl3ek » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 14:34

AngEviL wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 13:07
bl3ek wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 10:42
Well I tried the mod last night.

Turrets are certainly more accurate - yay!

But now my fighters seem weak? I piloted one and sure enough, it took a lot of firepower to take down another fighter. MK2 bolters against Xenon fighter, ages.

Also, the L turrets on my behemoth turn at a rather fast rate, it looks a bit silly. Perhaps L turrets are too zippy now?

Turrets needed the most help they can get, i pushed their agility as far as it can go. Ok, it should be fine if i decrease their turn speed to make it more natural as the speed increase vs vanilla is an order of magnitude higher. Maybe decrease turn speed of M by 20%, and L be at 2 thirds of what it currently is.

Regarding combat i made it last longer than vanilla, and also there are other weapon choises than bolt mk2, which was pretty much the only viable choice in vanilla. I think against fast fighers bolt mk1 or laser mk2 would work better, and if you find that is still hard to aim, laser mk1 has 20k bullet speed and still good damage.
Of course Bolt Mk2 has the highest dps among these, but you have a real choice depending your playstile, and pardon me if i say this, but skill too, if your aim (like mine too!) is not the best, try faster weapons.

Xenon ships have been buffed as well, much more agile and more hull hitpoints.
It's tricky to balance all this, but I do think 'large turret' should mean slower than S and M, but when it hits - it bloody hurts!

The trick is getting it to be slow enough that it looks 'realistic' but not too slow that fighters aren't hit at all.

I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but is there any logic for turrets leading targets at all (much like auto-aim does)? Did you spot anything in the files that would hint at your crew level actually improving accuracy at all?

desius
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by desius » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:07

The scope of this mod seems to have crept into a complete rebalance mod.

I liked the original concept of shield/weapon rebalance, but once the mod crept past that scope and started including massive changes to ship hull, xenon becoming bullet sponges that turn on a dime, and race rebalance where you're redefining vanguard/sentinal designations for hulls as well as redefining the strengths/weaknesses of each race- I lost interest at that point.

Could you perhaps put out a 'light' version which does not have all the hull/agility changes and only has moderate changes to weapons and turrets (speed, tracking, etc..) and shields (recharge, delay and capacity up on values but keep racial ratios egosoft has already set) ?

Guest242
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Guest242 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:32

desius wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:07
The scope of this mod seems to have crept into a complete rebalance mod.

I liked the original concept of shield/weapon rebalance, but once the mod crept past that scope and started including massive changes to ship hull, xenon becoming bullet sponges that turn on a dime, and race rebalance where you're redefining vanguard/sentinal designations for hulls as well as redefining the strengths/weaknesses of each race- I lost interest at that point.

Could you perhaps put out a 'light' version which does not have all the hull/agility changes and only has moderate changes to weapons and turrets (speed, tracking, etc..) and shields (recharge, delay and capacity up on values but keep racial ratios egosoft has already set) ?
I also agree with you and would prefer a concentration to weapon and shield changes. Also because in future it could be incompatible with example other ship or xenon overhaul mods. Too much changes in other game areas make it difficult to balance (especially because egosoft will update the game often). But it's the decision of the author. It's still a cool mod (and one of the first)! Good work!

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Requiemfang » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 23:10

desius wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:07
The scope of this mod seems to have crept into a complete rebalance mod.

I liked the original concept of shield/weapon rebalance, but once the mod crept past that scope and started including massive changes to ship hull, xenon becoming bullet sponges that turn on a dime, and race rebalance where you're redefining vanguard/sentinal designations for hulls as well as redefining the strengths/weaknesses of each race- I lost interest at that point.

Could you perhaps put out a 'light' version which does not have all the hull/agility changes and only has moderate changes to weapons and turrets (speed, tracking, etc..) and shields (recharge, delay and capacity up on values but keep racial ratios egosoft has already set) ?
Guest242 wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:32

I also agree with you and would prefer a concentration to weapon and shield changes. Also because in future it could be incompatible with example other ship or xenon overhaul mods. Too much changes in other game areas make it difficult to balance (especially because egosoft will update the game often). But it's the decision of the author. It's still a cool mod (and one of the first)! Good work!

Do note people that on the Nexus link page, clicking the downloads you will see a SHIELD only version of the mod as an optional download for those who do not want the version that touches other area's of the ships.

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Requiemfang » Sat, 15. Dec 18, 03:57

AngEvil I have to say those Khaak are extremely annoying bugs I need to squash now. Getting engaged at 12 kms away. Was not expecting that, if they engage me at that range well lets just say they are going to get swatted with extreme prejudice.

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by AngEviL » Sat, 15. Dec 18, 18:58

bl3ek wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 14:34
It's tricky to balance all this, but I do think 'large turret' should mean slower than S and M, but when it hits - it bloody hurts!

The trick is getting it to be slow enough that it looks 'realistic' but not too slow that fighters aren't hit at all.

I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but is there any logic for turrets leading targets at all (much like auto-aim does)? Did you spot anything in the files that would hint at your crew level actually improving accuracy at all?
I agree, it looked a bit artificial, decreased their turn speed in latest update somewhat, but I don't want to decrease it more than this as it would start affecting their perfromance. I will think about your suggestion for L turrets to have worse agility, but more damage.

As it happens there is a value for crew that improves turret efficiency, however I will not add that as I dislike hunting for crew, if it were after me i would scrap crew, workbench, black market traders. If a ware or commodity has to be added, than make it available on a factory, make supply and demand for that.
desius wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 20:07
The scope of this mod seems to have crept into a complete rebalance mod.

I liked the original concept of shield/weapon rebalance, but once the mod crept past that scope and started including massive changes to ship hull, xenon becoming bullet sponges that turn on a dime, and race rebalance where you're redefining vanguard/sentinal designations for hulls as well as redefining the strengths/weaknesses of each race- I lost interest at that point.

Could you perhaps put out a 'light' version which does not have all the hull/agility changes and only has moderate changes to weapons and turrets (speed, tracking, etc..) and shields (recharge, delay and capacity up on values but keep racial ratios egosoft has already set) ?
I love to balance games, and believe it or not, i did quite a lot of math when making this mod. If i split it in modules, I would see gaps in balance in the overall picture, because I see gaps in balance, as everything makes sense when put together.
I am trying to give choice to the people ! Instead of having a go-to ship or weapon, I want to make people think regarding their prefered playstyle and what is best for a certain situation. If you look my mod is a lot more varied than vanilla.

I don't know how much more I will change, but as i notice things out of place I will boost or nerf them. However I am trying to keep this as close to vanilla as possible, so this mod wouldn't break the game. I do this because I want to be happy with X4, and to share it with people. I understand that my changes make some people unhappy, maybe I make their favourite ship or weapon feel not so special anymore because I either bring the others in line with it, or nerf it to make it as good as the others.

I am paying attention to game updates and if they change the balance, and update my mod accordingly. When egosoft will add Boron and Split into the game, and new weapons and ships, I will look into them, and boost/nerf them.

If a mod like XRM from X3 with new ships, weapons, sectors will be released I will probably move on to that IF it is really feature-rich and interesting (I would mod that mod as well, but just for me as i probably wouldn't have permission to publish). But until such a mod releases in good enough state, I think it would be 3+ years, that is time for X4 to release its first 2 expansions, and for such a mod to fix its issues and grow.

Edit: Added a file without ship modifications, so no Xenon ship buffs either.

desius
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by desius » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:06

AngEviL wrote:
Sat, 15. Dec 18, 18:58
I love to balance games, and believe it or not, i did quite a lot of math when making this mod. If i split it in modules, I would see gaps in balance in the overall picture, because I see gaps in balance, as everything makes sense when put together.
I am trying to give choice to the people ! Instead of having a go-to ship or weapon, I want to make people think regarding their prefered playstyle and what is best for a certain situation. If you look my mod is a lot more varied than vanilla.

I don't know how much more I will change, but as i notice things out of place I will boost or nerf them. However I am trying to keep this as close to vanilla as possible, so this mod wouldn't break the game. I do this because I want to be happy with X4, and to share it with people. I understand that my changes make some people unhappy, maybe I make their favourite ship or weapon feel not so special anymore because I either bring the others in line with it, or nerf it to make it as good as the others.
I'm certainly not trying to dismiss your work on the mod. Everyone has their own vision for what "balanced" means.

The biggest problem I had was that the mod description really didn't match what was being changed, and there were some immersion/balance-breaking changes such as Xenon K's (LARGE class ships) which could suddenly turn on a dime, nothing any other L class ship can do.

I was once of the same mind as you as far these types of games go, feeling that everything in the universe had to be balanced and that no one race/faction had a real advantage over another.

Over time I've grown less interested in this type of thing and more often I see those kinds of efforts more as a homogenization or normalization that ultimately makes those games feel sterile and boring. There's a certain beauty to chaos that does not exist in balance. Perhaps this is because I, personally, can see a glaring overpowered thing, be it ship/weapon/class/tactic and recognize when it may ruin my long term fun if I abuse it - so I don't.

The biggest problems I see are what the original mod description covers:

Shields should be effective, but not a crutch. Recharge rates and delays should be such that attacking a ship above the target class of your ship's role should be an uphill battle. Unless your S/M ship is equipped as a bomber or plasma/emp shield killer, then it should be very hard work to get through a L/XL shield, but likewise, L/XL shields should regenerate fairly slowly so that it is possible to whittle them down.

Weapons, especially turrets, needing more role-specific balance, should likewise be sized to fit their role. small/medium turrets should have the tracking/rotation speed to be able to track small fast targets, Large turrets should not. Large turrets are heavier and slower to move, designed for anti-capship/station work. They should not be effective anti-fighter weapons and tweaking them into this just normalizes everything and makes them a ""bigger M turret"

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.60

Post by Requiemfang » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:35

desius wrote:
Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:06

Weapons, especially turrets, needing more role-specific balance, should likewise be sized to fit their role. small/medium turrets should have the tracking/rotation speed to be able to track small fast targets, Large turrets should not. Large turrets are heavier and slower to move, designed for anti-capship/station work. They should not be effective anti-fighter weapons and tweaking them into this just normalizes everything and makes them a ""bigger M turret"
I gotta agree with the assetment on L turrets against small targets, they should be exactly as this poster says, Cap ship / station killer.

Dinoff
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Re: [Mod] Shields and Weapons balance overhaul 1.63

Post by Dinoff » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 05:37

Not sure if this has been asked but can you buff L/XL ships hull points? I love all the other changes you made but my behemoth is killing its destroyer counterparts before the enemy ship can even get half a broadside into me.

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