[Mod] Shields and Weapons balance overhaul 1.74

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AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by AngEviL » Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:45

rusky wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:11
Looking good!

I've noticed someone else made a mod to make turret weapons do more damage because apparently they do a LOT less than the standard mounts normally.

Not sure what to make of it, but I generally think turret weapons should do the same or almost the same damage as the equivalent non turret weapon.
Everybody has their own vision to the game, and i draw some inspiration partly from X3, but also i tend to balance weaker things, so no matter what you pick, ship or weapon, you are good to go.
Regarding turrets, in X3 it is true that a turret used the same weapons as the front gun, however you had 8 front guns, and around 3 turrets for an M6, 4-6 for an M6+, 10 for and M7 and 40 for an M2(M2 had no main guns). In other words, a turret did 1/8th of the damage of the main gun, so if you had 6 turrets, all the turrets together still did less damage than the main gun.

In X4 you have 2 main guns, compared to 8 in X3, so if you made turrets do the same damage as the main guns, that would make turrets much stronger compared to X3, and also make ships lower than M6 obsolete. I agree that the turrets are lacking, but that is because of their bad targeting. In X4 the turret damage is about an 15th of the damage of the 2 main guns combined, but they have infinite energy. They could use a buff, up to double damage, but more than that, and they become more powerful than a turret in X3.
Please feel free to give a counter argument. Thanks for the idea, i'm gonna buff them in the next update.

rusky
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by rusky » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 00:47

Oh I don't necessarily think they should be on par with the main guns, I just though I'd let you know they were quite a bit weaker since you're making a weapon balancing mod now too so it felt like something worth having a look at :)

Thanks for working on this btw, I've been playing with it a bit and it definitely feels better than vanilla already.

One thing I'd like to see but not sure how possible it is since I fear some of this might be in the game engine code rather than the available xml/lua files, is a decoupling of boosting from shields and perhaps even the return of ship specific power generators that affect how much power a ship has overall for using its shields/weapons/boost.

So, for example, if you boost a lot, your shields wouldn't drain, but your generator power would, and if you empty it you stop getting regen, and you can't shoot your weapons either until the generator has had a chance to replenish some of the battery.

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Gabeux
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by Gabeux » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 08:09

Only played with it for a bit because the fight ranges, all the missing around, and lack of shield regen was frustrating to me. I don't have a formed opinion yet if I prefer constant regen or vanilla style, but it definitely felt good not being steamrolled by a couple of Defence Drones. And as the Destroyers get to keep some shields up, I believe their AI becomes much more effective and fun.

Regarding Regen, maybe Ion Weapons should be the ones to, after hitting, preventing regen for a few seconds. As long as they are kept low dps and shots per sec. Unfortunately, no enemies seem to field Ion guns, but I think it would be cool for them to have some reason to be used.

And regarding Defence Drones, do the changes to the guns make them Uber Defence Drones? IMO, if they are to have their damage boosted, they should have less health. I think it's super weird how after a fleet engagement, the few defence drones can kill one or two of your unsuspecting M6 (in vanilla at least).

Thanks for the mod by the way!

Baldamundo
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by Baldamundo » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 11:35

AngEviL wrote:
Fri, 7. Dec 18, 22:45
Regarding turrets, in X3 it is true that a turret used the same weapons as the front gun, however you had 8 front guns, and around 3 turrets for an M6, 4-6 for an M6+, 10 for and M7 and 40 for an M2(M2 had no main guns). In other words, a turret did 1/8th of the damage of the main gun, so if you had 6 turrets, all the turrets together still did less damage than the main gun.

In X4 you have 2 main guns, compared to 8 in X3, so if you made turrets do the same damage as the main guns, that would make turrets much stronger compared to X3, and also make ships lower than M6 obsolete. I agree that the turrets are lacking, but that is because of their bad targeting. In X4 the turret damage is about an 15th of the damage of the 2 main guns combined, but they have infinite energy. They could use a buff, up to double damage, but more than that, and they become more powerful than a turret in X3.
Please feel free to give a counter argument. Thanks for the idea, i'm gonna buff them in the next update.
Not sure this is exactly true. Certainly in the larger ships (everything from M6 upwards really) they often had multiple weapons in each turret. For the biggest ships, the turrets were extremely powerful. That's not at all the case in X4 - currently because turrets are so weak, a lot of the biggest ships actually seem like they've got a significantly lower damage output than much smaller ships. Pretty sure the Paranid Nemesis has higher DPS than any Frigate or Destroyer.

Also I'm pretty sure missile turrets will have ****** the balance totally. Since they're firing the same missiles, afaik a missile turret is the same damage as a regular missile launcher, whereas gun turrets are 1/15th of the damage (and missiles are already pretty strong!). Seems like there's absolutely no way other turrets can compete with missiles atm, but the game's so badly designed for logistics currently it means the only competitive weapon style is also micromanagement hell for the player.

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by AngEviL » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 12:30

rusky wrote:
Sat, 8. Dec 18, 00:47
So, for example, if you boost a lot, your shields wouldn't drain, but your generator power would, and if you empty it you stop getting regen, and you can't shoot your weapons either until the generator has had a chance to replenish some of the battery.
Thanks for the ideas and support. I don't think that X4 has that functionality, it would be nice to have some more complex mechanics. But i am trying to make the gameplay as interesting as possible with what we have !
Gabeux wrote:
Sat, 8. Dec 18, 08:09
Regarding Regen, maybe Ion Weapons should be the ones to, after hitting, preventing regen for a few seconds. As long as they are kept low dps and shots per sec. Unfortunately, no enemies seem to field Ion guns, but I think it would be cool for them to have some reason to be used.

And regarding Defence Drones, do the changes to the guns make them Uber Defence Drones? IMO, if they are to have their damage boosted, they should have less health. I think it's super weird how after a fleet engagement, the few defence drones can kill one or two of your unsuspecting M6 (in vanilla at least).
Thanks for the mod by the way!
Haha, yeah, it's funny how in vanilla drones and weak fighters kill big ships, because shields don;'t regen, and nobody is hitting the small fast fighters, haha. They miss a lot on the big ships too, but given enough time they kill it eventually.
I changed the MK1 weapons in my mod drastially, they are a great anti-fighter weapon now, trust me, get a MK1 laser or gatling/shotgun if your aim is a little better ! Also i improved turret tracking, got the idea from a mod here. If defense drones are still a problem after this update, I will nerf them.

For now i have changed Ion cannons completely, for better or for worse. They are like a light plasma cannon, half as much damage and range compared to plasma cannon, but has no energy drain.

I also updated the mod to 1.40, i worked a lot on weapon balancing. I did so many changes to weapons that I am sure I have some holes or errors, any feedback is welcome.

evilmike
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by evilmike » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 22:50

Hi,

can you make the shield regen boster part a buyable or craftable ship software (possibly with MK1 MK2 MK3 versions)?

Best Regards,
Mike

lavak9
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by lavak9 » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 23:25

Been using this since I found it version 1.15 ago, I like what you've done and continue to do. Thanks for your work!

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.30

Post by Requiemfang » Sat, 8. Dec 18, 23:29

AngEviL wrote:
Sat, 8. Dec 18, 12:30

For now i have changed Ion cannons completely, for better or for worse. They are like a light plasma cannon, half as much damage and range compared to plasma cannon, but has no energy drain.

I also updated the mod to 1.40, i worked a lot on weapon balancing. I did so many changes to weapons that I am sure I have some holes or errors, any feedback is welcome.
no energy drain but does it have a heat up mechanic?

Baldamundo
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by Baldamundo » Sun, 9. Dec 18, 08:18

In the description you say
Made MK1 weapons anti fighter, MK2 for against bigger ships
But in the detailed weapon changes above, it looks like all the MK1 weapons are longer ranged, slower projectiles, and higher damage - i.e. better againt bigger ships, not fighters. Which is it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Also, why the change with the ion weapons? Didn't they already have their niche?

Btw do you know how savegame/patch compatibility will be? Like the sound of the mod, but not sure about using it when the game's update schedule is so fast currently. Would enabling/disabling the mod partway through a save cause problems?

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by AngEviL » Sun, 9. Dec 18, 15:15

Baldamundo wrote:
Sun, 9. Dec 18, 08:18
In the description you say
Made MK1 weapons anti fighter, MK2 for against bigger ships
But in the detailed weapon changes above, it looks like all the MK1 weapons are longer ranged, slower projectiles, and higher damage - i.e. better againt bigger ships, not fighters. Which is it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Also, why the change with the ion weapons? Didn't they already have their niche?

Btw do you know how savegame/patch compatibility will be? Like the sound of the mod, but not sure about using it when the game's update schedule is so fast currently. Would enabling/disabling the mod partway through a save cause problems?
I didn't like their balancing, and that they use exactly the same projectiles are plasma weapons, so i made them plasma-like for now, lower damage, but without heat usage.

The mod works with all savegames, and this applies to almost all mods. It doesn't alter the structure of the code inside, just edits the relevant variables through a simple command. If egosoft change the same value that the mod uses, then the mod one would override it. Of course if Egosoft did some balance changes, i would pay attention to them and make changes to my mod if necessary.

Regarding Mk1 and Mk2 weapon displayed damage, that is completely bogus, i gave info to weapon damage in my main post. Except plasma and beam, and maybe one other, the displayed values regarding weapon damage and energy drain have NOTHING to do with reality. This also includes Mk1 and Mk2 variations of the same weapon. The distance is also wrong to some extent, as for example if a weapon has 1.9 km range, the displayed text rounds it down to 1km.
This also makes moding hard because if you let's say reduce the fire cooldown in half for such a weapon, it will NOT fire 2 times faster, it's firing rate may change with as little as 20%, because of some built-in animation fire order. Of course encyclopieda would list it as having double the damage as before.

Other than bullet speed, and distance with a good error margin, everything is wrong, up to a factor of 20. This may be because half of the weapons have built in animations that fire burst of bullets, unlike X3, so for example the weapon can fire 10 bullets in this animation but the game encyclopedia counts that as a single bullet. Only plasma is like a weapon in X3 and is 100% accurate in its info.
Last edited by AngEviL on Sun, 9. Dec 18, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

FlutterRAGE
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by FlutterRAGE » Sun, 9. Dec 18, 15:35

"Bolt MK1/MK2: 8.0/4.0 km range, 2.88/5.76 km/s speed, ~390/310 dps,"

I think what he meant is that in your main post, MK2 is actually MK1 and vice versa.

Since what you put in the post is that MK1(anti fighter): 8km range, 2.88km/s, 390 dps; and MK2(anti-large ship): 4km range(shorter), 5.76km/s(faster) and 310 dps (less dps)


While it is nice for the player to have a choice, but does the AI know that? If they don't, how is it going to screw with AI combat?

Nephaatu
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by Nephaatu » Sun, 9. Dec 18, 15:44

Hey there m8,

Amaizing work, thx 4 that.

Now, i have 2 questions:
-Did you forgot to mod the Ion blaster weapon.
-Do this modifications aply to all npcs too?

Tnx and continue with your good work!
Cheers!!! o7

Guest242
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by Guest242 » Sun, 9. Dec 18, 21:49

Very cool mod and thank you for your work! I use it together with the "Foundations of Conquest and War"-Mod Link to get xenon invasions like the screenshot below. The problem is that the xenon always loose the battle. In my opinion the shield recharge is too strong or the the xenon (and khaak) weapons are too weak. Because of this mod I think they use different weapons: Nexus.

- It's a idea/suggestion to balance the "enemy" weapons too and to make them more fear.


https://i.ibb.co/z5w7PPP/1.jpg


{Images posted directly to the forums should not be greater than 640x480 or 100kb, oversize image now linked - Terre}

AngEviL
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Re: [Mod] Shields with no regen delay and weapon balance 1.40

Post by AngEviL » Mon, 10. Dec 18, 01:56

Regarding the previous posers, the Mk1/Mk2 difference, I mixed them in the mod description, however they were good ingame. The modification affects the AI ships, and so far the game is harder, and the AI is more dangerous because the weapons they had were underpowered lasers, I made lasers much better, and the change affects them. I modified Ion weapons too, they are similar to Plasma cannon, have lower damage, but no heat drain.
Guest242 wrote:
Sun, 9. Dec 18, 21:49
Very cool mod and thank you for your work! I use it together with the "Foundations of Conquest and War"-Mod Link to get xenon invasions like the screenshot below. The problem is that the xenon always loose the battle. In my opinion the shield recharge is too strong or the the xenon (and khaak) weapons are too weak. Because of this mod I think they use different weapons: Nexus.

- It's a idea/suggestion to balance the "enemy" weapons too and to make them more fear.
I improved K manuevrability by a high margin, it was very weak, and P a bit. I also improved Khaak and Xen weapons. Xen are not better than what the player has, but if Xen continue to be underpowered I will buff their ships and weapons.

Version 1.50 released ! I am happy that i fixed the weapon stats displayed in encyclopedia, and when choosing weapons on your ships, should be 100% accurate. You can finally brainstorm regarding your preferred loadout ! I went through each weapon in detail again and changed values so they all have a purpose and are balanced.

Requiemfang
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Re: [Mod] Shields balance and Weapon overhaul 1.50

Post by Requiemfang » Mon, 10. Dec 18, 03:28

I was wondering this about the mod but how are the turrets performing with this mod? are they still unable to keep up with targets and have trouble hitting their targets when the ship they're mounted on moves a around constantly?

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