[6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Ask here if you experience technical problems with X4: Foundations.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Post Reply
Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

[6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Post by Yonder » Mon, 8. May 23, 16:36

6.00 HF3 English
Unmodified
Smuggler's Paradise Start

M ships do not appear to get the flee Tide command in the same way that the S and L ships do. I know that there was a recent fix to this behavior in the changelogs, maybe it was fixed in S and L's but not M's, or reverted somehow? Here is a save you can see that my Courier Vanguards are clustered outside of Avarice with a lot of other S and L ships. One of my Dolphins is inside Avarice and heading deeper inside, and you can see that many, many NPC M ships are also within Avarice. If you continue to watch my Dolphin will make it to the Station it is heading for just before the tide hits. Then, rather than staying inside the Station safely it will leave into the tide to try to flee out of the sector. It, uh, doesn't work out very well for it.

Possibly related to viewtopic.php?f=180&t=454139 but that was an older post, before HF3 and maybe even HF2, they also specifically mentioned S ships being affected, which isn't my experience.

Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide

Post by Yonder » Tue, 9. May 23, 03:09

Watching Avarice more closely when the tide comes in the situation is definitely not as cut and dry as "Medium ships do not flee", as some medium ships are definitely outside of the gate, although it seems to be primarily Manticores. Maybe the issue is more based on timing, and a lot of the M ships are slower and more prone to get trapped when they don't have the necessary warning? Manticores definitely drop their salvage right where they are and run for it. So it may not be an M ship issue but is instead an issue with some trade orders not interrupting correctly?

I think that the issue may actually be that a trade ship that is close enough to the station it is heading for is SUPPOSED to get to the station, make the trade, and then shelter in place until the tide passes. Instead they are making their way to the station, trading, and then fleeing for the zone exit that they can't hope to make in time? If this is the case then it may be another symptom/variation of the "M ships can't dock in Avarice" bug.

The Manticores definitely don't have this "shelter in place" function. I have seen them drop cubes practically on top of processing centers and run for it, when they would easily have enough time (in OOS at least) to finish delivering the salvage and hide in the station.

j.harshaw
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon, 23. Nov 15, 18:02

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide

Post by j.harshaw » Tue, 9. May 23, 18:53

Thanks for the report and the save.

On load, your Dolphin was on its way to an RIP Scrap Processing Factory in Avarice. It just finished docking when the tide warning hit, and it stayed docked (got a Wait for Signal order until the tide passes). Tide passed and it resumed.
It does look like it missed the warning before the tide hits. I've made the response to this warning more robust. Improvement should be in a future update.

In general, when S or M ships flee when the tide hits, that means that they asked every station in Avarice for permission to dock and didn't get immediate permission anywhere. This can happen in the situation you described if the warning comes immediately after a ship undocks or while it's on the way to dock but hasn't yet gotten a dock reserved.

Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Post by Yonder » Wed, 10. May 23, 03:29

Thanks for looking into it, and making improvements! That is a little different than the behavior I saw the first time though. On the original playthrough after I saved the Dolphin made it's trade, then immediately undocked and died (no orders from me). Let me load my own save and see what happens again. I wonder if it's the last possibility that you mentioned, since the ship is heading to dock at this station but is still far away (not even the same sector) does it not have a reserved location? On the first playthrough could it have gone through the sector boost, made it's close approach to the station, and only then found out there was no room?

Huh, yeah. I reloaded and it's just like you say, the Dolphin docked with the station and is staying there to wait out the tide. So whatever oddity is happened the first time was fixed with a restart. I don't think it's random chance on the docking slots either, because the area didn't have a lot of activity, so it's not like my ship just edged out another ship that it maybe lost to the first time. The station info page ready 0/57 docked ships before my Dolphin docked, and 1/57 afterwards, but I'm not sure if that's because the station is actually empty, or just because I don't have the scans/rep to see docked ships that aren't mine.

Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Post by Yonder » Tue, 16. May 23, 04:18

I am still seeing this behavior after HF5, and when I reloaded my last save game some of it still reproduced! TLDR if a station trader finishes a mission in between the Tide Warning and the Tide (possibly before Tide Warning, this save didn't have that scenario, I also didn't investigate Repeat Orders) the trade manager can give it a new order that will take it into Avarice with no protections. This can be the case whether the trader is outside or inside Avarice during this time period.

Save Game. The tide alert will go off shortly, this is the first tide that is happening since HF5.

Observations:

1. Dolphin MID-720 is heading for a dock and trade at an Avarice station (Hold Position behavior with a list of orders, not a Repeat or Station Trade behavior). When the tide alert comes it stops in place and gets a "Wait For SIgnal" (Duration infinite) command at the top of the queue. I believe this is one of the HF5 improvements as I don't believe this occurred before. However it's not ideal that it did this pause in Silent Witness I, two sectors from Windfall III The Hoard and the Avarice Gate. I would expect it to get a Move order to the Windfall flee rallypoint, and the Wait For Signal after that, so that it doesn't waste as much time, but at least the ship is indeed safe. (Although this behavior would certainly be a problem if it happened in a dangerous sector, the "move to Flee rallypoint and wait there" alternative would be safer in that case as well.)
2. Plutus (Mineral) Sentinel SQM-631is a station trader for my "Windfall III The Hoard Trading Station (VLF-585)" At the start of the save it does not have any orders, however it consistently gets an order to dock with the home base, buy Scrap Metal, and take it into Avarice to sell before the Alert comes. It seems to have a chance to get the orders right before or right after the Tide Alert occurs, without a difference in it's behavior of loading the Scrap Metal and heading into Avarice. The particular Station it is sent to varies, however, which may make it's fate up to chance a bit. Nevertheless, after it completes its sale in Avarice the Station Manager sends it to my Scrap Processor in Hatikvah's Choice to get another load of Scrap Metal for the Trading Station. Despite the fact that it is deep in Avarice during the tide alert the ship will nevertheless immediately head off. If it's station was in Avarice I it gets out before the Tide starts, I'm not sure if that is the case if it's sent all the way to Avarice V, I didn't play the Reload where it was assigned there that far out.
3. A little after the Tide Alert occurs my Windfall Station trade manager decides to send a Courier to sell Hull Parts to the Avarice Wharf. It's not always the same Courier, once it was HJG-241, twice it was UHZ-237 after HJG-241 was given another order. After it completes it's trade it stays at the station for a little while, but gets another trade order before the tide hits. Frequently to somewhere else in Avarice, although I think it's fate would be sealed no matter where it was sent, unless it locked into getting a very early mission out of Avarice. I think when HJG-241 gets this mission it gets to the Wharf before UHZ-237, maybe giving it a better chance to survive.
4. There are a couple of Courier ships attached to the Trade Station that are on their way back home during this time, and thus have the chance of getting a new order to head into Avarice right before the Tide hits. FRA-686 is one of that can be sent in to die. Interestingly VLF-585 got a mission to trade in Avarice and stopped right outside the Trading Station with the "Wait for Signal" task, so it seems like a Station Trade Mission that starts after the tide hits is safe, but one starting between the alert and the tide is not safe. Once again it would be nice if it moved to the Flee Waypoint in Windfall III the Hoard before the wait so that it would be closer to Avarice when the Tide stopped.

Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Post by Yonder » Wed, 24. May 23, 03:55

Here is another example. At this point the warning has already sounded. The station trader Courier Vanguard (UHZ-237) is about to dock at an Avarice station to finish a trade order. After doing so it undocks, even though the Station Manager hasn't even given it a new trade mission yet. (Note the general lack of traffic and abandoned Scrap Cube showing this is well into the warning window.)

https://i.imgur.com/3qp2pFW.png

At this point if it gets another trade from the Station Manager in the Avarice system it is doomed, which is what happened the first time. Playing through the save a couple times it sometimes does not get another trade order, in which case the Tide begins and it starts to Flee the system. Because the station it visited was so very, very close to the Gate it just barely survives if that is what it occurs, but if it had been visiting literally any other station in Avarice it would die no matter it's next order after leaving the Station.
Last edited by Terre on Wed, 24. May 23, 07:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Images posted directly to the forums should not be greater than 640x480 or 100kb, oversize image now linked

Yonder
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed, 24. Mar 04, 22:53
x3

Re: [6.00 HF3] M ships not fleeing Avarice Tide - Explanation + improvement coming.

Post by Yonder » Sat, 27. May 23, 01:18

6.00 HF5 - English, Steam, Unmodified

I found another example of odd Tide behavior, which is actually a bit more strange than the previous two.

That first HF5 save game above showed a couple different behaviors, but mostly Station Traders starting trades during the warning period without a "Wait" interrupt preventing them from going into Avarice right before the tide hit. The second one directly above showed a Courier that may have been in Avarice for that reason, (hard to say as the save game was during the warning period, not before) but the issue there was that once it had docked and traded it did not get a "Wait" interrupt to keep it docked safely.

In this save we are once again right before a Tide alert. Note that unlike in my previous saves I actually happen to be IS for this event.

Ships behaving as expected:
  • Hydra LVL-586. I am in this ship, but the Captain has control. Currently we are at normal Hold Position order and the Captain flees the sector.
  • Shuyaku Sentinel NEY-354. Hold position behavior with one remaining trade order. It has just entered Avarice IV from deeper in the sector and is on it's way out of Avarice. Both in my original play and in the reload this ship behaved as expected, fleeing from the system. (Although once it was out of the system it was be nice if it continued on it's way, that's definitely a "nice to have" not a bug.
Ships showing bugged behavior:
  • Pelican Vanguard JUF-347. Hold position behavior with queued trade orders. It is in Avarice very close to the Station it has it's next order at (to buy EC).
  • Courier Vanguard THW-764. Station trader heading into Avarice to complete the second part of it's trade.
Reproducible Bug

Crucially the Pelican will get close enough to the station to make its docking approach. It radios in for dock clearance, gets it, and then the tide warning fires. The ship does not flee, because it's already in the middle of docking, instead a "Wait for Signal" interrupt is generated in between the current and following "Execute Trade" commands. This is crucial because as the Pelican goes through the process of trading that Execute Trade goes all the way into and Undock, and the ships is then left undocked immediately outside of the station and vulnerable to the tide. In this case it's a large so it will be fine, but M and especially S ships will die. I'm not sure if an M ship in a "paused immediately after undock" state blocks the M pad for subsequent ships, in IS perhaps if not OOS.

Here is a set of screenshots showing this order progression, but due to the timings involved this aspect seems to reproduce from my save all the time.

Image
Image
Image

Non-Reproducible Bug

Courier Vanguard THW-764 has some variability. In the original play it had already started it's docking approach when the warning came. I am so close to certain that this actually led to a different outcome than the Pelican above. Rather than doing the dock/trade/undock and waiting like the Pelican it instead got a "Wait" before the dock. I recall checking on it and seeing that it was still carrying it's goods meant for the Station it was right outside. (This is the same station the Pelican is going to btw). With this "Wait" before finishing it's dock, it stopped in space outside of the station. This could be part of why ships sometimes got gridlocked in Avarice, a ship in the midst of docking was given that wait interrupt, keeping it from being able to dock, and also blocking everyone waiting for it.

This, however, has not reproduced for me in three tries. Every time I have reloaded the alert comes before the Dock process and the Courier simply flees. I do not know if this is because there was something wrong in the game state that did not persist through the reload, or because the timing is just so finicky. Perhaps in the original play the Courier stayed in Travel drive an extra tenth of a second and so started the Dock process sooner because it had so much less to go with normal engines.

However, like I mentioned this time I am in system, right next to this same Station! With some trial and error I was able to reproduce the timing so that the my Hydra Captain had already started the Dock approach. In that case rather than getting the Flee command his orders came like this, with an interrupt in between "Dock" and "Dock and Wait"

Image

However in this case everything seems to work exactly as expected. The Hydra does finish that first Dock, so it's totally safe. Unless the block before "Dock and Wait" prevents the Station from storing the ship internally to clear the pad there may not be an issue here?

Interestingly, and aggravatingly, in this play the Pelican did NOT stay frozen outside of the Dock. It just went on it's way, no Dock interrupt, but no flee command either, just continued its orders. Since the Pelicans behavior had been so reproducible so far I wondered if there was something different about having two simultaneous dockers. With a little more trial and error I got this save with the Hydra on its way to dock at the correct timing. It is indeed true that only one simultaneous docker keeps its "Wait For Signal" order. The Hydra keeps it, but if you watch the Pelican while it does immediately get that "Wait" interrupt we saw above, that interrupt is removed very quickly.

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations - Technical Support”