[4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

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Old Drullo321
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[4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Old Drullo321 » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 23:47

I've an issue with invincible/nearly invincible faction L and XL capship/destroyers battling it out. In the linked screenshot you see the Duke's quest fleet battling it out with the PAR defense fleet from the end of the Paranid Plot chain, siding with the Duke's. The battle goes on for about 20h ingame hours (see personal log, Dal Busta's message) and only S/M ship got destroyed. I'm not sure but it seems not a single L/XL ship got destroyed since the fight started.

As it seems the game isn't able to handle reinforcements, a large TEM fleet is gathering up in Nopileus Fortune IV, waiting for a move. I guess they will only go when the previous group got destroyed... Tanking my FPS.

Screenshot: https://abload.de/img/screenshot631gdkof.png
Savegame: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aKHBpe ... sp=sharing Not modified, vanilla. Savegame started sometime ago with 4.0 CoH start, most of the time played in 4.10

This may be a separate issue, or related to viewtopic.php?f=146&t=442237 or viewtopic.php?f=180&t=442305 but there it seems mainly related to Xenon K and station OOS combat.


Edit:
=> Have a look at Pious Mist II - Duke's vs PAR
=> Have a look at Getsu Fune - TER vs ANT/ARG

This is a gamebreaking bug because it took out thr "dynamic" out of X4 along as those Xenon/Station OOS issues.
Last edited by Old Drullo321 on Fri, 8. Oct 21, 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Imperial Good » Fri, 8. Oct 21, 00:50

In general there is no retreat logic which I think is the issue. If fleets end up in a degenerate situation (cannot kill each other due to losing too many surface elements) then they should retreat to reinforce and repair turrets.

This is especially important for the Xenon. Most of the complaints about them being weak are due to people spotting a turretless I or K that is being hammered on for hours, or even days. In that situation the K or I should retreat, repair and reinforce before resuming attacking.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Shuulo » Fri, 8. Oct 21, 01:20

Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 8. Oct 21, 00:50
In general there is no retreat logic which I think is the issue. If fleets end up in a degenerate situation (cannot kill each other due to losing too many surface elements) then they should retreat to reinforce and repair turrets.

This is especially important for the Xenon. Most of the complaints about them being weak are due to people spotting a turretless I or K that is being hammered on for hours, or even days. In that situation the K or I should retreat, repair and reinforce before resuming attacking.
If you will check the savegame OP attached and go to that battle (in Poious Mists 2) you will see that this is not the case. All ships are in perfect health as well as their surface components. Some bug in OOS calc just prevents ships dealing any kind of damage to large targets in some situations.
I see the same issues in both vanilla and modded games and this is quite game/immersion-breaking issue (at least for me) as factions never progress in their wars/aggression and I want to see dynamic universe. Ill add my save as well here when ill have a chance.

Edit: link to save (only cheat menu mod installed just to setup the scenario), there are few PAR and HOP ships in the same sector as player, fighting. While small amount of damage is done sometimes, shield regen fast after that to 100%, they will never kill each other and will be locked in combat for perpetuity.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Kajar » Sat, 9. Oct 21, 20:10

I happen to have run a few tests a few days ago and my results show there is something not quite right.

This was tested via creating various ships carrying various guns and turrets in the custom game start - creative. Then using the Cheat Menu mod to spawn enemies of various factions and sizes and let them fight against my ships. Maybe this could habe influenced the results as well.
Anyway, this is what i got.

Weapons appear to be a able to hit multiple targets at once.
Most turrets don't appear to do anything OOS. Damage is minimal and near instantly regenrated.
Xenon turrets do a pretty big chunk of damage at fight start to everything, but then continued damage is a lot lower.
Destroyer main guns absolutely destroy S size ships. Entire 10+ squadrons get oneshotted.
Destroyer main guns do not appear to get used against M, L or XL targets.
Neither is the Asgards gun being used.
Capital ship vs Capital ship tends to end in a stalemate, with neither being able to destroy the other, or even dent the shields.

M Ships do no damage to any target. Not to S, M, L or XL. Tested a variety of weapons and they simply output nothing? Like, they don't even appear to be firing?

S ships deal massive damage in turn.
S vs S size appears to be working proberly. Targets engage, damage and kill eachother in a reasonable timeframe
S targets then destroy any other size class without any mercy.
Equipped with plasma or muon they absolutely melt capital ships.
No losses if the enemy doesn't have main guns.
Engaging-hit took shields down to 30-40%, but then regenerated and damage taken from turrets was minimal.
Eventually turrets died and damage taken was zero.

Edit:
I did a full re-install of the game and a test in full vanilla with the budgeted custom start.
Results were pretty much identical except that M ships now did use their turrets and did damage. Their main guns still appeared to go unused.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Sterling Silver » Sun, 10. Oct 21, 17:09

My game has also suffered this issue, though my game is modded and I am unsure if this is the result of a mod or not, doubting it though. Sent a fleet to attack a Xenon Wharf in Savage Spur II only for the fleet to bring down the Wharf to 99% Integrity while the Wharf just nukes them as they seemingly do nothing else OOS.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Malchar » Sun, 10. Oct 21, 21:37

aversin wrote:
Sat, 9. Oct 21, 20:10
I happen to have run a few tests a few days ago and my results show there is something not quite right.

This was tested via creating various ships carrying various guns and turrets in the custom game start - creative. Then using the Cheat Menu mod to spawn enemies of various factions and sizes and let them fight against my ships. Maybe this could habe influenced the results as well.
Anyway, this is what i got.

Weapons appear to be a able to hit multiple targets at once.
Most turrets don't appear to do anything OOS. Damage is minimal and near instantly regenrated.
Xenon turrets do a pretty big chunk of damage at fight start to everything, but then continued damage is a lot lower.
Destroyer main guns absolutely destroy S size ships. Entire 10+ squadrons get oneshotted.
Destroyer main guns do not appear to get used against M, L or XL targets.
Neither is the Asgards gun being used.
Capital ship vs Capital ship tends to end in a stalemate, with neither being able to destroy the other, or even dent the shields.

M Ships do no damage to any target. Not to S, M, L or XL. Tested a variety of weapons and they simply output nothing? Like, they don't even appear to be firing?

S ships deal massive damage in turn.
S vs S size appears to be working proberly. Targets engage, damage and kill eachother in a reasonable timeframe
S targets then destroy any other size class without any mercy.
Equipped with plasma or muon they absolutely melt capital ships.
No losses if the enemy doesn't have main guns.
Engaging-hit took shields down to 30-40%, but then regenerated and damage taken from turrets was minimal.
Eventually turrets died and damage taken was zero.

Edit:
I did a full re-install of the game and a test in full vanilla with the budgeted custom start.
Results were pretty much identical except that M ships now did use their turrets and did damage. Their main guns still appeared to go unused.

I will try an hypothesis, if it can be helpful.

I seems egosoft have change the range where destroyers engage the ennemy stations. It seems to be the maximun range of the main battery. It would not be so surprising it worth not only for stations, but for any target. From there, turrets, that have lesser range, (execpt may be the splits) will be neutralized. Also using only spindle weapon / main battery, destroyer, would be at pain to score a kill vs an other L ship.
Last if xenons are the exception among L ships, it is simply because they have no main battery. Also If xenons fire reduce with time, it is simply because of their unfair weapon shielding that make them so easy to defang (but this last part is not the subject).

The thing that inspire me such possibility is some months ago I worked on a mod centered on xenons. during test, I noticed that adding a main spindle mounted battery to xenons XL destroyers had for consequence to reduce drastically damage done to the stations they targetted.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Buzz2005 » Mon, 11. Oct 21, 09:10

this is my report from beta 4 viewtopic.php?f=192&t=440876&p=5070973#p5070973

same thing, a very big battle that just kept pilling on ships with never any resolutions until I made it high attention
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by steph_m37 » Sat, 16. Oct 21, 16:44

hi !

I encountered this problem once with a Xenon I very deep on map (at maximun i think negative), it lasted over an hour while this group was killing I much faster (OOS).
I was forced to move away from the other ships and teleport to the syn to eliminate the Xenon I myself.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by iforgotmysocks » Sat, 16. Oct 21, 18:52

Can confirm the issue aswell, capital ships and occasionally m sized ships have issues applying their damage OOS which leads to incredibly long engagements. And it would be really nice if you could add a few more parameters to the OOS calculation like miss chance for main guns against smaller targets, a check whether main guns should fire on smaller ships. This bug combined with the bug that stations aren't dying at 0% hp causes the entire universe to stagnate and systems to hardly ever change owners between factions that are at war.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by baerdesklopapies » Sat, 16. Oct 21, 23:41

I can confirm this issue too.
I have no savegame anymore but i watched 10 min on OOS where one Raptor battleing 3 Rattlesnake and both are dealing little damage to each other (Shield flicker and recharge in seconds).
I ended this with boarding the Raptor but i started the boarding OOS with one of my own Raptors. My Raptor started spining arround (like all ships in battle) but nerver kicks out the boarding capsules. I Telported tomy Raptor ("in sector"), take control and fly nearby. In this time (2-3min) the Raptor has getting his shields down and around 80% hull (not shure about the Rattlesnakes). As soon as my boarding capsules where on the way i teleported OOS. All Capsules arrived the enemy Raptor and succesfully board it without any surface elements are damaged.
I have Reproduce this later with a Zyarth Rattlesnake fighting a Curbs Rattlesnake, no Capsule where attacked.
I can confirm that Capsules are getting destroyed OOS when no other enemy is attacking.
o7

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 17. Oct 21, 00:00

This has been going on for far too long,
please ES do something !
I would really like to play the game again sometime...

Reported/discussed this months ago, somewhere between july/august,
can OOS get some attention ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Please

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Sterling Silver » Sun, 17. Oct 21, 01:42

You know, it's kind of tempting to ask a dev if the problem players are having with OOS at this time has already been brought to their attention and is being addressed to some degree.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 18. Oct 21, 08:16

After attempting to kill a Branch 9 I in low attention with 5 Syns and an Asguard, the issue seems to be that destroyers in low attention do not point their main batteries at the target when given an attack order. Since most of the low attention damage of a destroyer is the main batteries, the result is they deal a fraction of the damage they should.

Giving all 6 ships an attack order resulted in them, and the I, oscillating like crazy and the I not losing any shield. Letting the Asguard distract the I while manually pointing and parking the Syns facing the I resulted in the I quickly losing all its shield. Meanwhile the Asguard and I were dancing their way lower and lower due to the oscillations.

It seems currently that destroyers try to broadside their targets in low attention. However since most of their damage is forward facing due to that being where their batteries are located they deal significantly less damage to the attack target than they should. This is best seen when issuing an attack command against a station where the destroyers start slowly circling the target station rather than pointing at the station. Manually ordering them to hold position pointed at and in battery range of the station results in the station dying orders of magnitude more quickly.

The low attention AI for L and XL ships with main batteries (highest damage is forward facing) should have them stop trying to motion track the target as long as the target is predicted to remain within range of most of the forward damage and instead stay still facing the target. Only if the target is predicted to leave the range of most of the forward damage soon should it resume motion tracking and try to intercept. In theory this will optimise their damage and avoid degenerate oscillation as two ships rapidly try to intercept each other. Ships with most of their damage to the sides, like the Branch 9 I, should use the current behaviour and try to broadside their targets. This could be extended to other damage configurations where maximum damage to the rear works like the forward logic except the ship turns around when conditions are met and maximum damage to the top and bottom causes the ship to try and fly above or below the target as appropriate, or broadside with a 90 degree roll.

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Re: [4.10] Invincible L/XL OOS faction battles

Post by iforgotmysocks » Mon, 18. Oct 21, 09:59

In that case it still doesnt explain why my ~10 asgards and destroyers did almost no damage against stations that were fully equipped with plasma L turrets. The turrets should habe been enough to rip the stations appaert, same as IS.

And just to mention it, i had 12 katanas yesterday that failed to apply any damage. It may be related to their targets veing mostly S ships, but as hardpoint weapons usually always hit, they should have taken significant damage (front facing weapons really need a miss chance based on shiptype tho). Even the 2 turrets on each katana (attack everything) did not seem to apply any damage. So my squad was slowly decimated by about half their numbers of xenon s ships.

That makes me believe that the turret damage application is way off aswell. (Which would explain why Xenon Ls also do no damage.)

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