Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

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Raptor34
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Raptor34 » Thu, 8. Jun 23, 21:40

A5PECT wrote:
Thu, 8. Jun 23, 17:09
Sure, you could conceivably get away with surreptitiously hijacking a civilian cargo barge in real life. But there's no way to board and commandeer the USS Gerald Ford without the US government immediately knowing and becoming very, *very* angry at you (regardless of how good of terms you were on prior). And that operation would surely involve more than *another* aircraft carrier sailing up to it, dropping off some dinghies of soldiers, and sailing away with zero incident.
And even if you could steal it without them knowing who. The criminals would become immediately obvious the moment you actually sail it somewhere.
Though I guess if you then just go on and scrap it you could get away with it...

MickDick
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by MickDick » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 01:18

I've seen arguments around on this topic that since it's a singleplayer game that it doesn't matter and if you don't like it then don't do it. This is utterly nonsensical for obvious reasons. It's like telling a player to just not use the kick ability in Dark Messiah or to just not use cover in a Gears of War game. What matters isn't even if the developer intended it.
What matters is: Is the dominant strategy in your game engaging/fun?

Boarding for lots of early game cash is very much the dominant strategy in X4 to my estimation. Certainly, the most lucrative "player-active" activity. Now, we have a working strategy that blows up the mechanic on its face and turns it into a boring cheese fest that very much feels like it's unintended. (edit: on top of making it very banal and 0 risk/boring) Need I remind that the setting for deploying marines onto a vessel comes with the warning "Very high risk" if you set the hull % to deploy to very high and vice versa? This very heavily implies the marines in their pods are still exposed to dangers. But as we all know, this is not the case. I conclude that this alone is the smoking gun that there is missing polish to the mechanic that would naturally make fly by boarding untenable. I am sure someone will insist that it is just saying it's high risk because the longer an op goes on the more likely the ship will get targeted by a third party and destroyed along with your marines, so let me cut that out right away: I reject that notion. That is a far more presumptuous hypothesis and leads nowhere. In any case it seems pretty clear this is never going to be addressed so it's up to players to rectify the issue.

Thankfully we have modders who through various efforts can make fly boarding very impractical and I will share what I believe is a working solution.

1. Improved Boarding Difficulty (available on nexus): Introduces improved damage for enemy crew the more turrets, forward mounted guns, and hull % are operational.
2. Deadair Jobs (available on nexus): Has a replacing people.xml file for all factions that mostly or fully crews their ships appropriately.
3. More turrets for capital AND More turrets for xenon (available on steam and nexus): For obvious reasons, more turrets on the military capital ships in conjunction with previous 2 mods will make fly by boarding almost impossible to succeed.

Optional: RS Marine Special Training (available on nexus) - Lets you use a L or XL ship as a training ground. Requires an expert marine captaining the ship to execute the order and various other requirements and costs that make it very reasonable non-cheaty method of getting raw recruits up to at least "Finished basic" level. It's a recent release and there's some quirks but the operation itself once executed seems to work fine.
It is so far a nice replacement for the missing X3 marine training. (yes I know about terraforming)

This all in all makes boarding generally impossible to perform without destroying a lot of subsystems (and thus losing rep). Civilian ships are still the most accessible targets but not complete pushovers.


Egosoft had a really monumental undertaking with rebirth and X4 so I cut them a ton of slack. Most teams would balk at the idea and just take the easy path every time. But it is very odd to me how boarding has been fumbled since X3 perfection of it. Even just the presentation is all screwed. Seriously, look up on youtube the boarding actions taking place in X3 and compare it to X4. Just the very soundscape and music and the transition at the cusp of victory. Nevermind the prepwork needed. Preparing a boarding team, equipment, pods, sourcing a pod launching capable ship (unless you wanted to take your shot at jetpacking in spacesuit that is...). It was a real endeavor that X4 makes all so casual. Even the team status reports are largely underwhelming and even silly at times... But anyways I'll stop here. I hope someone will at least have a better experience in X4 due to the mods listed.

jlehtone
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 10:35

MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 01:18
Boarding for lots of early game cash is very much the dominant strategy in X4 to my estimation.
X4 is not 4X.

In 4X you do have an objective and you try to figure out most efficient strategy to reach that victory objective.
A lot of credits would be an objective. Getting them quickly, with low effort and risk, is obviously "good 4X".
As Sun Tzu pointed out, an ordinary leader wins battles but a master of war wins the war without fighting any battles; the most boring option is the wisest.

X4 has no such objectives; the game does not force you to do anything. You decide on what you want.
If your objective is to "have fun", then cheese is not the most efficient strategy.
Note that having fun is not a concrete objective where the game is over when you reach it.

In that sense X4 is Space Invaders. You can't "win". You play as long as you have fun. You "lose" when you quit.
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Admiral Sausage
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Admiral Sausage » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 12:14

I'd just like to mention that it isn't only boarding of L/XL ships where this problem exists, but capturing S/M ships too.

If you attack an S/M ship in a sector where the authorities won't accept a report from the pilot, then there's no rep loss for the initial attack. This is fair enough. Then, there is no rep loss if you make the pilot bail, even though there is repo loss if you destroy the ship instead. This makes no sense, as how would the owning faction know that you destroyed a ship, but not receive reports from the crew in escape pods, assuming you didn't murder them all?

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Scoob » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 13:21

I've never heard of fly-by boarding until sometime last year, didn't quite believe it was possible...then I tried it! Sorta amusing at first, but it highlighted multiple issues:

- Sending Boarding Pods annoys the ship, but they get over it eventually - just like accidental fire.
- They're blissfully unaware of the HOSTILE MARINES boring their way through the hull.
- If a ship is at 100% hull, said boring takes well over an hour real time - I'd always previously damaged a ship first (to force a few more crew to bail), so initially though fly-by boarding didn't work.
- No rep loss when my Marines start killing the crew - do they not realise it's me? They know what Boarding Pods are for, right?
- When the ship becomes mine, so do ALL docked subordinates! We can assume my Marines took out the Pilots chilling in their ships... huge bonus though.
- Other ships of that Faction, perhaps in the same fleet, don't find it odd when their buddy wanders off under another faction's control.

Fly-by boardings are a good way to get a ship from a friendly, but it takes a LONG time if the hull is at 100% Also, the pods have to survive the trip - no neutering of turrets as I'd do in a regular boarding operation. Finding an already damaged ship can speed things up...

There are also several "buggy" side-effects of fly-by boarding in addition to the above (which I count more as omissions than bugs):

- Boarding Pods are the most dense objects in the Universe, able to stop a multi-megatonne Capital ship dead in its track, or knock it flying. Thanks Jolt lol.
- Boarding Pods often just vanish on the way to the target. They're NOT destroyed, they just vanish, but the game logs the Marine deaths.
- Sometimes ships go NUTS trying to shoot the already attached boarding pods, this can lead to mayhem with stray shots (ships cannot hit themselves) going all over the place.
- Allied ships will sometimes try to shoot the attached pods too, damaging the ship.

I imagine fly-by boarding goes like so:

- Target ship: What's that NUTTER doing, he's gonna hit us..oh, he missed, that was close!
- Did that lunatic launch something at us or did bits just fall off his ship? Red Alert.
- Oh, he's buggered off (out of scanner range) stay alert guys.
- Right, Tea break, stand down.
- Sometime later...
- Does anyone else hear that scratching noise from outside the hull?
- Just the hull heating / cooling sir, as we pass into the shadow of those asteroids and back out again...certainly nothing to do with that prior event at all, I'm certain of it.
- Has anyone seen Bob, he was here a moment ago...
- Hostile forces have boarded the ship... Marines!
- Shall we call for assistance sir, that speeding lunatic must have sent Boarding Pods!
- A bit busy a the moment, oh, there's Bob... and over there too, and on the ceiling, I'm gonna be sick.
- Sir, Sir? No time for laying down sir...Oh!

I'd suggest that, if the boarding is successful, perhaps all evidence that it was ME is covered up. Let say active Marines can block comms. However, if it's NOT successful, they'd be able to ID some of the corpses as affiliated with my faction - which would REALLY piss them off.

Also, surely the Faction knows the ID of their own ships... Really, there should be another step to "legitimise" the ship by changing the ID... But that doesn't only apply to fly-by boarding of course.

When talking regular "bail" ship capture of S and M-Class ships, the "I'm trying to save you, honest" method is, again, something I only realised last year. Basically, go to a conflict area where you're at least neutral with both side - ANT/ARG vs. HOP in Second Contact II - Flashpoint is a good place, depending on game start - and simply Comm ships that are close to death and suggest they leave, for their own safety (aka "Surrender!") then, through there's no actively hostile action on the player's part, ships might bail. Can get the player Fighters and Corvettes in the first few minutes of a new game, zero down-side. Well, other than ships close to death can often die seconds after the crew bails.

caraota
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 17:55

MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 01:18
This all in all makes boarding generally impossible to perform without destroying a lot of subsystems (and thus losing rep). Civilian ships are still the most accessible targets but not complete pushovers.
This part I do not agree with, why would you want to destroy or cause severe damage to the target if your goal is to keep it or sell it?
Defending marines' effectiveness should not be tied to ship's current state, morale being the exception and driving factor that should lead to bail.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:09

caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 17:55
why would you want to destroy or cause severe damage to the target if your goal is to keep it or sell it?
Boarding is a lot quicker if you smash a big hole in the hull. I generally aim to knock the target's hull down to ~70% before sending in the marines. I lack the patience to wait for longer just to get a more intact ship & since most of my boarding operations take place in -30 rep hostile territory the faster I can get in, board the target & get out again the better things tend to go. Can always patch the ship up later if planning to keep it, or just sell it as is (70% intact ship is still generally worth a fair few credits). Turrets also have to go since most ships respond poorly to big holes being punched through their hulls & would not want them to take it out on my marines in their boarding pods.

caraota
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:13

Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 13:21
- If a ship is at 100% hull, said boring takes well over an hour real time - I'd always previously damaged a ship first (to force a few more crew to bail), so initially though fly-by boarding didn't work.
I can't confirm if true or not... this could be me just failing to reallize that crew size has an effect on the boarding timer? anyways... I've only tried with ships from enemy factions (-15) like ZYA, but after the target becomes "passive" with me again (ship turns pink again) then I proceed to ram it at full travel speed to lower target's shield below 25% and sometimes it triggers the third phase early without having to wait 1Hr. Sometimes doesn't work though.

Also, people often say "scratch the painting" but I'm working on perfecting the "make them spin" technique... instead of scratching I get a bit closer in order to ram them, which will make both ship spin, but since I'm coming in hot my ship bounces but keeps momentum (it can make my ship spin too) and I can stop a target and leave it in a confused/difficult state so the turrets will have a hard time tracking the pods and the target will try to stabilize before hitting the pedal to try and leave the pods behind.
Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 13:21
Basically, go to a conflict area where you're at least neutral with both side - ANT/ARG vs. HOP in Second Contact II - Flashpoint is a good place, depending on game start - and simply Comm ships that are close to death and suggest they leave, for their own safety (aka "Surrender!") then, through there's no actively hostile action on the player's part, ships might bail. Can get the player Fighters and Corvettes in the first few minutes of a new game, zero down-side. Well, other than ships close to death can often die seconds after the crew bails.
Said conflict zone is also really good for fly-by boarding... last night I scored two Odysseus E that were attacking a station, and the boarding took less than 10mins because since the ships were constantly getting their shields hammered :D

caraota
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:30

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:09
caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 17:55
why would you want to destroy or cause severe damage to the target if your goal is to keep it or sell it?
Boarding is a lot quicker if you smash a big hole in the hull. I generally aim to knock the target's hull down to ~70% before sending in the marines. I lack the patience to wait for longer just to get a more intact ship & since most of my boarding operations take place in -30 rep hostile territory the faster I can get in, board the target & get out again the better things tend to go. Can always patch the ship up later if planning to keep it, or just sell it as is (70% intact ship is still generally worth a fair few credits). Turrets also have to go since most ships respond poorly to big holes being punched through their hulls & would not want them to take it out on my marines in their boarding pods.
And that's my current issue with the official boarding procedure... there is no way to cripple target's speed or ability to scape (to make allow the boarding pods catch up with target) without destroying the engine... no way of doing it in stealth mode but going in guns blazing so the whole galaxy knows its me :roll:

Maybe be if they allows us to hack the ship (via mini-game) we can play demoralizing propaganda through target's intercomm :mrgreen: :twisted:

MickDick
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by MickDick » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:39

jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 10:35
MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 01:18
Boarding for lots of early game cash is very much the dominant strategy in X4 to my estimation.
X4 is not 4X.

In 4X you do have an objective and you try to figure out most efficient strategy to reach that victory objective.
A lot of credits would be an objective. Getting them quickly, with low effort and risk, is obviously "good 4X".
As Sun Tzu pointed out, an ordinary leader wins battles but a master of war wins the war without fighting any battles; the most boring option is the wisest.

X4 has no such objectives; the game does not force you to do anything. You decide on what you want.
If your objective is to "have fun", then cheese is not the most efficient strategy.
Note that having fun is not a concrete objective where the game is over when you reach it.

In that sense X4 is Space Invaders. You can't "win". You play as long as you have fun. You "lose" when you quit.
People play games for whatever reason drives them and X4 is up there in a "make up your own reason" genre but it clearly has a focus on building up one's credit balance/assets. That is neither here nor there however. Exploits, especially those that actively harm the experience, are unacceptable.
caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 17:55
MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 01:18
This all in all makes boarding generally impossible to perform without destroying a lot of subsystems (and thus losing rep). Civilian ships are still the most accessible targets but not complete pushovers.
This part I do not agree with, why would you want to destroy or cause severe damage to the target if your goal is to keep it or sell it?
Defending marines' effectiveness should not be tied to ship's current state, morale being the exception and driving factor that should lead to bail.
I do not understand your point. Given that all subsystems repair to full functionality after destruction given time, service crew, and repair drones, destroying every single subsystem on a target doesn't lose you anything.

It would be cool if it didn't increase enemy marine damage but instead rolled small checks to cause bails as the boarding op proceeds, but this is a random guy's work. We're working with what's available. It's better than allowing the exploit to remain.

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Scoob » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:01

caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:13


I can't confirm if true or not... this could be me just failing to reallize that crew size has an effect on the boarding timer? anyways... I've only tried with ships from enemy factions (-15) like ZYA, but after the target becomes "passive" with me again (ship turns pink again) then I proceed to ram it at full travel speed to lower target's shield below 25% and sometimes it triggers the third phase early without having to wait 1Hr. Sometimes doesn't work though.

Also, people often say "scratch the painting" but I'm working on perfecting the "make them spin" technique... instead of scratching I get a bit closer in order to ram them, which will make both ship spin, but since I'm coming in hot my ship bounces but keeps momentum (it can make my ship spin too) and I can stop a target and leave it in a confused/difficult state so the turrets will have a hard time tracking the pods and the target will try to stabilize before hitting the pedal to try and leave the pods behind.

Said conflict zone is also really good for fly-by boarding... last night I scored two Odysseus E that were attacking a station, and the boarding took less than 10mins because since the ships were constantly getting their shields hammered :D
It's 100% hull related, the behaviour has been too consistent for me. Shield level makes zero difference to me. They could be full or zero, it's the hull percent that dictates how long phase 2 takes. I've even tested boarding at 100% hull - long delay - reload, damage hull, then send Marines. Same amount of Crew, MUCH quicker boarding - it's just phase 2 that takes over an hour if hull is 100%. It's the main down-side of fly-by boarding, unless the ship is already damaged.

If I'm targetting an enemy ship, I will neuter it first to make things easier for the Marines.

Regarding losing rep when damaging an otherwise friendly target... Firstly, you're a monster, they're friendly lol. Secondly, factions always instantly know what you've done. Distress Drones supposedly can call for help from local forces - if friendly to the attacked ship - however, destroying ALL of them will still often result in a local patrol - that was OUT of range at the time of the attack - to aggro and chase the player.

We need some way to "jam a ship's comms" so we can pirate in peace. It's the lack of stealthy boarding options that made me want to try fly-by boarding in the first place. Having the ability to disable a ship without destroying anything, then using Tugs to take it out of any allied ship's scanner range would be cool. Also, how about special weapons that penetrate a ship's hull (shields must be down) directly injuring the crew, reducing boarding resistance further.

When I get Elite Marines, I like to use a Medium ship to get in a targets blind spot - no turret coverage - and launch Marines point-blank. That can work really well, unless the AI decides to randomly path the Pods around the target *sigh*

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:04

caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:30
And that's my current issue with the official boarding procedure... there is no way to cripple target's speed or ability to scape (to make allow the boarding pods catch up with target) without destroying the engine
Surface elements do not function when their hull points are low; they do not need to be "destroyed". That just requires much more markmanship than big bada boom.

MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:39
Exploits, especially those that actively harm the experience, are unacceptable.
I take that as part of the Think game. How much cheese can you stomach before you lose the fun?
My treshold is probably different than yours.

The point is that if we can't do what ruins our game, then we can't choose where we draw the line.
Sure, some of us are that scorpion who did drown, because to sting was it its nature.
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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:59

Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:01
It's 100% hull related, the behaviour has been too consistent for me. Shield level makes zero difference to me. They could be full or zero, it's the hull percent that dictates how long phase 2 takes. I've even tested boarding at 100% hull - long delay - reload, damage hull, then send Marines. Same amount of Crew, MUCH quicker boarding - it's just phase 2 that takes over an hour if hull is 100%. It's the main down-side of fly-by boarding, unless the ship is already damaged.

If I'm targetting an enemy ship, I will neuter it first to make things easier for the Marines.
I'll try to pay more attention then... I swear I boarded two Odysseus E that were at full hull and it didn't take the usual long time it takes when I board a military ship using fly-by... they were under fire though.
Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:01
It's the lack of stealthy boarding options that made me want to try fly-by boarding in the first place. Having the ability to disable a ship without destroying anything, then using Tugs to take it out of any allied ship's scanner range would be cool. Also, how about special weapons that penetrate a ship's hull (shields must be down) directly injuring the crew, reducing boarding resistance further.
I do fly-by for same reason... not because is easy (although last time I tried to board an Asgard it took me like 1K marines and three attempts) but because I don't like that my only recourse is to go guns blazing

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Scoob » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 21:08

jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:04
Surface elements do not function when their hull points are low; they do not need to be "destroyed". That just requires much more markmanship than big bada boom.
The issue is that many crews can near instantly repair things. I've seen Engines go from totally destroyed to 50% - ship starts moving at 30% - in the space of a few seconds. Surface elements that are disabled (under 30% hull) do indeed stop functioning, but they can be repaired seconds later, making it's a never-ending battle to disable surface elements before they repair enough to function again.

I've tried this numerous times and it's a losing battle. Most ships appear to come with decent service crew and in reasonable numbers, Repair Drones significantly increase repair speed. I've actually gone around a Rattlesnake DESTROYING the turrets, only to have the first couple I destroyed repaired and firing again before I'm half-way through. Considering destroying those Turrets was one squeeze of the trigger, lasting just a few seconds, that's crazy.

What we need is something that disables and inhibits repair for a few minutes.

All that said, repair priorities are basically broken. I've seen ships near instantly repair Engines and Turrets, whereas, once mine and with a good service crew aboard, will simply REFUSE to repair the Engines until ALL other surface elements are operational. Shame we cannot prioritise repairs.
Last edited by Scoob on Sat, 10. Jun 23, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Scoob » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 21:10

caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:59
I'll try to pay more attention then... I swear I boarded two Odysseus E that were at full hull and it didn't take the usual long time it takes when I board a military ship using fly-by... they were under fire though.
If the ship takes hull damage after the Boarding Pods have attached, it can speed up phase 2. Even just a scratch can help. I used to use a shield-penetrating weapon to damage the hull, but not enough to aggro the ship, then send Marines over to get basically an intact ship. I lose lots of Marines though lol.

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 21:23

MickDick wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 18:39
I do not understand your point. Given that all subsystems repair to full functionality after destruction given time, service crew, and repair drones, destroying every single subsystem on a target doesn't lose you anything.

It would be cool if it didn't increase enemy marine damage but instead rolled small checks to cause bails as the boarding op proceeds, but this is a random guy's work. We're working with what's available. It's better than allowing the exploit to remain.
My point was s that is don’t feel logical to go steal a semi truck or military vehicle by destroying its wheels/engine just to them sit there repairing it… when the option to do it in a more stealthy and less damaging way is available.

Now, don’t get me wrong… I find hilarious I can rob ZYA destroyers and battleship in their “home” system, but I don’t want fly-by disappearing because people consider it and exploit, when the reality is that the mechanics just needs some adjusting to make it a bit more skill based like the guns blazing approach

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by Raptor34 » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 22:35

Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 13:21

- If a ship is at 100% hull, said boring takes well over an hour real time - I'd always previously damaged a ship first (to force a few more crew to bail), so initially though fly-by boarding didn't work.
So why exactly is this considered an issue?

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by caraota » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 23:10

Scoob wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 21:10
caraota wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 20:59
I'll try to pay more attention then... I swear I boarded two Odysseus E that were at full hull and it didn't take the usual long time it takes when I board a military ship using fly-by... they were under fire though.
If the ship takes hull damage after the Boarding Pods have attached, it can speed up phase 2. Even just a scratch can help. I used to use a shield-penetrating weapon to damage the hull, but not enough to aggro the ship, then send Marines over to get basically an intact ship. I lose lots of Marines though lol.
Aaah that must be it. Thank you

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by A5PECT » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 23:16

Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 10. Jun 23, 22:35
So why exactly is this considered an issue?
Nothing by itself. But it taking so long paired with target hostility being allowed to change in the middle of being boarded immediately becomes silly.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.

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Re: Thoughts on Fly-by Boarding

Post by alt3rn1ty » Sat, 10. Jun 23, 23:51

Akorolev89 wrote:
Thu, 8. Jun 23, 13:04
Exactly, it needs to be alancerd both ways.
WTF is "alancerd"

Can you point us to a dictionary reference? so that we know what the hell you are talking about.
I hate the internet, nobody can spell these days, or just copy someone else because something sounds about right.
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