Faction SY, EQ and Wharf rebuild logic

[Y-llian]

Hello there good people,

In cases where a faction SY, EQ or Wharf gets destroyed, I know that the faction will rebuild it somewhere. But, does anyone know what the game logic is, for where they will choose to rebuild? In my current game the TEL has lost their SY (and MIN their EQ) in Profit Centre Alpha... A Xenon I has been making trouble all along the route from Hatikvah, through Silent Witness to PCA, taking out stations and cause destruction. That doesn't really bother me, more profitssss for me when the rebuilding starts....

But, despite having a silly amount of hours in this game, I've never been able to figure out what the faction rebuild logic is, so thought, I'd ask here in case anyone knows?? In the past, I've seen the factions rebuild ship manufacturing / EQ sites in odd places, often far away from trade routes and areas where there's not sufficient population to sustain workforce for ship building.

So... in my current scenario any ideas where TEL and MIN might rebuild?

Thanks, as always...
Y.

[taztaz502]

No idea, HOP in my game are actively trying to build equipment docks and wharfs in second contact II

Which the argon keep destroying.

[Y-llian]

haha... Exactly, there doesn't seem to be a coherent logic, not that I can see anyway but... there must be some form of logic! I'm hoping someone knows!

[GCU Grey Area]

No idea either, however in case it's useful data a few days ago in my game Antigone lost their shipyard to the Terrans. Since then they've tried to rebuild in The Void (destroyed by Terrans before completion), then in Getsu Fune (really daft choice - sector was owned by the Terrans at the time), then finally in Second Contact VII. That last one's an excellent place for it, safe from the Terrans & really good place to pump out warships to secure the border against HOP. It's also within 5 gates of my HQ in Memory of Profit IX which makes it a lot easier for my freighters to keep this shipyard resupplied.

[Y-llian]

That's really interesting GCU - thank you! So, from that we can infer (dangerous, I know) that factions will try to rebuild one jump away... If that fails, they will move further out and so on. The fact, however, that they built in enemy space (Terrans in your case) is very odd indeed! One would think that factions would like to secure their high-end production in fairly safe space or at the least, their own. Even The Void is a very poor place for ship production / maintenance - not only is the area hazardous but you have Xenon coming through Frontier's Edge...

In my view, and you're welcome to agree / disagree, the logic should work something like this:

1. Upon destruction, the faction should try to rebuild in the same sector, providing they still own it. Generally, Ego tried to seed SYs, EQs and wharfs in logical places, often (though not all) where there are workforce availability bonuses to ensure ships are crewed appropriately. Usually losing a SY, Wharf or EQ would also mean that the enemy ship(s) have also been destroyed and another large scale (or lucky) attack is unlikely in the short term.

2. If the faction can't rebuild in their own sector having lost it, or having tried to rebuild and lost it again (destroyed before being rebuilt) then they will try and build in a sector they own, that has workforce availability bonuses. It seems logical to me, that factions would move production to where there's enough people to crew ships.

3. If none of the previous options are possible, then they will try to build in a sector one jump away from the original position. This is the final / fallback option. Rinse and repeat...

Factions should definitely never build in space occupied by their enemies. They could also see, if there's neutral space on their borders to claim that has workforce availability instead of moving to step 3 - a slightly more tricky proposition given that they cannot replace losses at that stage.

[Raptor34]

In mine the HOP lost the EQ Dock bordering PAR and rebuilt them in the same sector. They never lost control there though for what it's worth. I don't think they were ever seriously threatened either. It's just the AI lacking a response part in their script.

[Y-llian]

That’s interesting Raptor - thank you. The behaviour you noticed is different to what GCU reported. Whatever logic the rebuilds function under certainly is illusive!

[Raptor34]

That’s interesting Raptor - thank you. The behaviour you noticed is different to what GCU reported. Whatever logic the rebuilds function under certainly is illusive!

Your post above makes sense, the one with the logic, mine fits into point 1. And note in GCU's case, if ANT is losing something against the Terrans, then it's highly likely they are making a major push in because the Terrans has the resources and few enemies.
That's why I took care to note mine was more like PAR sniped the HOP EQ Dock. Rather than pushing a major fleet in. Practically speaking the sector was still safe, with 2 well-armed defense platforms still alive. I don't know if that was the same in GCU's case.

[GCU Grey Area]

I don't know if that was the same in GCU's case.

Sounds different. Very fluid situation here, lots of warships in action, sectors changing hands on a fairly frequent basis. Some of the latter was my doing. On a couple of occasions have used the 'Conflict Resolution' (torpedo Hydra) to flip sector control, specifically Second Contact II ANT -> ARG & The Void TER -> ARG.

Changes in sector control may well have been responsible for some of the odder choices about where factions rebuild. They may control a sector when planning where to rebuild, but by the time construction work starts a different faction owns the sector. Easy to miss new major stations being built until they're sufficiently developed to get their specific icon.

Just spotted a TER wharf being built in The Void. This was almost certainly started in the brief period when the sector was under TER control, after the original was destroyed by a Xenon fleet on their way to Earth. Guess the idea here was that the best place for the new wharf was right on the front line. It's just unfortunate that now it appears to be on entirely the wrong side of that front line, surrounded by ARG defence platforms. Suspect it won't be there for very long, anyone care to guess where it'll pop up next?

[jlehtone]

Early in my game (3.10-) PAR did kill HOP Wharf and ED. PAR took Pontifex's Claim too.
HOP did rebuild: Wharf in Lasting Vengeance and ED in Cardinal's Redress.

Still in 3.* ARG demolished ZYA TD (Zyarth's Dominion X). Much later ZYA did build new one in Zyarth's Dominion I.

(4.* or 5.*) FAF destroyed TEL Wharf. Replacement did appear in Wretched Skies IV (taken by Teladi during 3.*).

(5.10) XEN did raid ZYA Wretched Skies V, both Wharf and ED. First rebuild attempt (Wharf?) was in same sector.
Now the ED is in Zyarth's Dominion X and Wharf has not been spotted.

XEN have destroyed TEL TD in both Open Market and Hela's Twin. One replacement is somewhere (Ianamus VII?), but it does not use the unique Teladi TD model.

PIO has all its buildings (or at least the 15% stubs) in Oort Cloud -- the only PIO sector that I left them.

TER finally gave up on trying to rebuild TD's; they have only Earth and Moon left. Before giving up they had no qualms about dropping those plots in neutral or PIO sectors.

[Y-llian]

Great! Thanks jlehtone! that's useful information....

By way of update, the wharf that was destroyed in PCA has actually been rebuilt in the same sector. The Shipyard, however, that was also destroyed there, I've yet to locate a new build plot for - doesn't seem like it will be PCA but somewhere else. That said, the EQ that was destroyed in Bright Promise has actually been rebuilt in the same sector.

[GCU Grey Area]

Another data point for consideration - appears that contested status (rather than control) is sufficient for a faction to consider a sector as a viable place to rebuild important stations. Just spotted the Xenon attempting to rebuild one of their wharves in Hatikvah's: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/33t7rwzh ... 414gpl3skj
Sector has been under HAT control throughout the game. Xenon did however manage to build a defence platform, putting the sector into contested status & shortly thereafter started construction of a wharf (previous location Atiya's Misfortune I). Won't be there for long though, Argons just offered me 45 million & a purple weapon mod to dispose of it for them...

[Admiral Sausage]

There have been quite a few wharfs etc. destroyed in my game. I haven't been able to discern much pattern in where they are rebuilt:

• The ARG wharf in Argon Prime was destroyed. They tried to rebuild it in Zyarth's Dominion X, which was just barely under ZYA control at the time. There's no way they could have completed construction there. Eventually it was destroyed when the Xenon finished taking it over, and ARG rebuilt it in Argon Prime again.
• The ARG shipyard in Argon Prime was destroyed. I think they must have tried to rebuild it somewhere else first, because it was goen a long time, but later they rebuilt it right in Argon Prime again, although the sector belonged to me at that point (the shipyard was the last thing giving them ownership when it was destroyed, so I took the opportunity to sneak an admin module onto one of my own stations there. The Argon didn't seem to mind losing their homeworld to a foreigner).
• MIN lost their equipment dock in Profit Centre Alpha, and rebuilt it in Eighteen Billion (makes sense, as their other important stations are there).
• TEL lost their wharf and shipyard in Profit Centre Alpha, and rebuilt them both in Two Grand. Only one jump away, but risky, as it's full of Xenon, though still under TEL ownership.
• HOP lost their equipment dock and tried many, many times to rebuild it in Second Contact II which is under ANT control. Eventually they succeeded, and put enough turrets on it that neither ARG nor ANT could take it down. However, they put it so close to an ARG defence station that it was within drone range, so the two stations were attacking each other for days of real time, doing damage slower than their repair rate. Eventually ARG mustered enough materials to build a couple of destroyers and demolished it. HOP are now trying again.
• XEN lost the wharves and shipyards in Matrix #79B and Savage Spur. I was hoping that they would rebuild them in places that needed them, e.g. Atiya's Misfortune was missing a wharf, but instead they built a second shipyard there. Hmmm. There were a few attempts to build in Hatikvah's Choice I before XEN lost ownership of Tharka's Cascade. They also tried several times to rebuild a wharf and shipyard in Matrix #79B, even though it was no longer owned by them or adjacent to a sector owned by them.

So, the AI seems to prefer rebuilding in the original sector, and in secotrs that they own or are next to ones they own, but otherwise it could be anywhere.

[Bozz11]

My guess is that it's complete random, I mean I have seen Argons rebuild their Hatikvla choice Equipment dock in Black hole Sund, so they had 2 equipment docks in the same sector...

Also Hop just lost their wharf to the paranids and are actively trying to rebuild it in ennemy territory...

This game has no logic, I mean HOP also has 50 destroyers patrolling a secured sector whil they are getting destroyer by Godrealm and invaded by xenons... but hey at least those fleets are kept safe

[Val Comdriver]

In my gameplay PAR built defense station in HOPs Pontifex's Claim and HOP lost thier EQ there. HOP still own the Claim sector but by some reason the decided to build in Pious Mists II owned by PAR. They tried that like 10-15 times before I took the ownership of all the Mists sectors. And after that, despite of being friendly with me, they tried to build their EQ like 3-4 more times in Mists II. Now it looks they made it somewhere else or decided they don't need one because I can't see any HOP EQ on my map anymore.

[jlehtone]

Yes, the choice of location is most likely (weighted) random among "eligible" sectors. Do remember that a faction that has lost all their admin buildings still does attempt to respawn somewhere.

Also Hop just lost their wharf to the paranids and are actively trying to rebuild it in ennemy territory...

Regardless of where HOP builds, they are in deep trouble. Factions do lose ships constantly. Faction with no Wharf will run out of S/M ships. The NPC logistics is notoriously inefficient (to give the player trader a break). The limited L freighter/miner jobs won't keep HOP stations well supplied. Besides, the HOP SY is likely consume most of its stock on rebuild of military ships until it is dry. Eventually, it gets next to no materials and therefore can't build more ships that could make more deliveries.