Why are M ships so useless?

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abisha1980
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abisha1980 » Wed, 1. Feb 23, 21:23

this game have terrible game balance when it comes to ships. pure fact.
the devs hates anything larger then fighters which is very funny because they only a tiny part of the game.

away if you wanna experience the game better use mods. don't expect the devs to do anything about this.
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apm0SPE
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by apm0SPE » Thu, 2. Feb 23, 16:58

IMO, the ploblem for M ship is that their sheild and haul could not makeup for its size and make the survival of them worse than fighters.

A xenon m could last longer in front any L ship, compared with Xenon P.

Slashman
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Slashman » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 03:11

apm0SPE wrote:
Thu, 2. Feb 23, 16:58
IMO, the ploblem for M ship is that their sheild and haul could not makeup for its size and make the survival of them worse than fighters.

A xenon m could last longer in front any L ship, compared with Xenon P.
So you are suggesting some buffs to hull and shields for M ships? About how much would you say would be adequate?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

S!rAssassin
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by S!rAssassin » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 06:52

Slashman wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 03:11
some buffs to hull and shields for M ships?
Hull/Mass for L = Hull/Mass for M. It`s fair enough.
Shield/Mass for L less twice Shield/Mass for M!
But M dies pretty fast...
Shield/Mass for M triple more Shield/Mass for S. So, triple increase Shield/Mass for M is fair? :gruebel:

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by apm0SPE » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 07:41

Slashman wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 03:11
apm0SPE wrote:
Thu, 2. Feb 23, 16:58
IMO, the ploblem for M ship is that their sheild and haul could not makeup for its size and make the survival of them worse than fighters.

A xenon m could last longer in front any L ship, compared with Xenon P.
So you are suggesting some buffs to hull and shields for M ships? About how much would you say would be adequate?
I guess it could make M ship more nimble or have a different logic. Other than super-heavy fighter, which do dogfighting and dodging incoming fire, acts as a defender of incoming S/M ship, I would also like to see M class ship acting like torpedo bomber: charged in with their superior hull/shield, drop the payload (could be torpedo or meson stream-like weapon) without losing its momentum and disengage.

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chew-ie
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 08:04

S!rAssassin wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 06:52
Slashman wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 03:11
some buffs to hull and shields for M ships?
Hull/Mass for L = Hull/Mass for M. It`s fair enough.
Shield/Mass for L less twice Shield/Mass for M!
But M dies pretty fast...
Shield/Mass for M triple more Shield/Mass for S. So, triple increase Shield/Mass for M is fair? :gruebel:
The shields are definately part of the problem. Their recharge is too low, they should mitigate the damage 1-2 fighters can inflict while recharching. Otherwise we have the same situation as we have it now - once the shield is gone, the M is toast. Fighters would suffer the same fate - but they try to escape and recharge their shield COMPLETELY. That's a crucial element of them surviving more fights then a M ship.

More hull helps - but the key to fix the M ships is the shield.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 08:54

More shields won't fix much.
M-size are in the worst place, where it's bullet magnet for almost everything, including large plasma and gravitrons.

That's also why Terran fighter sux comparing to Split, despite much better shields.

Agility and speed are very important, but M-size is too big and handle like a brick, even Katana and Dragon (while near handlings of a heavy fighter, they still are much easier to get several gravitrons in the face, not to mention large pulse).

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by blackphoenixx » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 16:45

chew-ie wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 08:04
S!rAssassin wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 06:52
Slashman wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 03:11
some buffs to hull and shields for M ships?
Hull/Mass for L = Hull/Mass for M. It`s fair enough.
Shield/Mass for L less twice Shield/Mass for M!
But M dies pretty fast...
Shield/Mass for M triple more Shield/Mass for S. So, triple increase Shield/Mass for M is fair? :gruebel:
The shields are definately part of the problem. Their recharge is too low, they should mitigate the damage 1-2 fighters can inflict while recharching. Otherwise we have the same situation as we have it now - once the shield is gone, the M is toast. Fighters would suffer the same fate - but they try to escape and recharge their shield COMPLETELY. That's a crucial element of them surviving more fights then a M ship.

More hull helps - but the key to fix the M ships is the shield.
The problem is that M shields don't recharge at all while you're taking fire. The recharge delay is only half a second, but when you've got 2-3 fighters on you that's enough to effectively disable shield regen entirely, especially on the slower ships.
Otherwise it's not exactly great, but it'd be enough to keep up with 1-2 fighters if it wasn't for that.

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chew-ie
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 16:52

@blackphoenixx

Indeed - Destroyer had the same problem @release. The constant recharge was what made them strong - beforehand they were just for show and not worth the credits. Same could happen for the M ships. Everything not nimble enough for dodging needs a constant & good recharge rate which mitigates some damage. Nimble fighters rely on their dodge-roll / boost-away tactic which is enough to get back to full shields. M ships don't have that - neither dodge mechanic nor damage mitigation.

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Raptor34
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Raptor34 » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 18:04

Don't M shields already have like a sub-1 second recharge delay?

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by grapedog » Fri, 3. Feb 23, 18:28

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 08:54

Agility and speed are very important, but M-size is too big and handle like a brick, even Katana and Dragon (while near handlings of a heavy fighter, they still are much easier to get several gravitrons in the face, not to mention large pulse).
The katana and Dragon have terrible handling! I hate flying both those ships. I'll take the Nemesis every day of the week, it actually handles well. The Katana is like the worst for Corvettes if I recall correctly... Even the Gorgon and Cerberus handle better than the Katana.

But the Katana does handle better than the Osprey and Cormorant... So I guess it has that going for it.

blackphoenixx
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by blackphoenixx » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 00:29

Raptor34 wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 18:04
Don't M shields already have like a sub-1 second recharge delay?
Yeah, half a second. Which means that if you're under constant fire (like from Xenon fighter weapons) and too big and slow to dodge or run (which most M ships are) you don't get any recharge at all.
It wouldn't be so bad if your shields at least recharged fast like on S ships, but M shields need something like 1-2 minutes to go from 0% to full even without interruptions.

Both of those together mean you don't get any shield recharge worth talking about during a fight, and without shield recharge you die pretty fast. M shields aren't that big.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by taronas » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 09:32

playing v6 beta, Ms are great the way I use them. I had captured a bunch of POI Katanas, SCA Minotaurs and a Behemoth.
I put them together as a fleet at the gate in Hatikvas. They dealt with everything coming in so far which is N, M, P, S and single Ks. Sometimes they get help of some Argon ships though. Anyways, have two scouts looting that area and made lots of money from that setup.

Then I went on to aquire some Bounty hunters (seem hard to capture) and some Dragon Raiders and a Rattle snake. This is another Fleet that guards one gate in ZYA space. Haven't got in contact with a K yet. And the Dragons are indeed somewhat fragile - even with TER Mk3 shields.

What I also like: doing "Escort Miner" Missions. I do them in an M myself (acquired a Kuraokami by now) with 5 Katana following me on Intercept. They deal easily with the Khaaks and are fast to collect the loot afterwards.

I like having M ships around :-)

Raptor34
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Raptor34 » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 11:28

blackphoenixx wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 00:29
Raptor34 wrote:
Fri, 3. Feb 23, 18:04
Don't M shields already have like a sub-1 second recharge delay?
Yeah, half a second. Which means that if you're under constant fire (like from Xenon fighter weapons) and too big and slow to dodge or run (which most M ships are) you don't get any recharge at all.
It wouldn't be so bad if your shields at least recharged fast like on S ships, but M shields need something like 1-2 minutes to go from 0% to full even without interruptions.

Both of those together mean you don't get any shield recharge worth talking about during a fight, and without shield recharge you die pretty fast. M shields aren't that big.
Right, I kinda forgot that their shield recharge is trash. One of the reasons I recently switched from modding them for recharge rate to capacity instead.
Someone should make a mod to boost their recharge imo, to test it out and see how it is.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 13:44

Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 11:28
Right, I kinda forgot that their shield recharge is trash.
The M shields are used in Capitals and Stations too. I don't say that someone would attack turrets on them for any purpose, but Egosoft might have nevertheless asked: "If we make M shields super, then how does it affect XYZ?"
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by Raptor34 » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 14:02

jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 13:44
Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 11:28
Right, I kinda forgot that their shield recharge is trash.
The M shields are used in Capitals and Stations too. I don't say that someone would attack turrets on them for any purpose, but Egosoft might have nevertheless asked: "If we make M shields super, then how does it affect XYZ?"
That's why I typed out the rest of that post.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by As25 » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 14:43

I agree with shields for M ships being an issue. Fastest MK2 regen is Paranid. 5520 MJ Capacity 43 MJ/s recharge = 128 s. 2 minutes to go back to full and that is without interruption whatsover. Teladi is 3 minutes. 6746 / 39 = 172s. Add the stupid shield boosting mechanic and M ships pretty much kill themselves. Also, a big problem with X4 ai (most noticeable on destroyers) is their inability to aim their main weapons. Just buy 1 of the most maneuverable M ship, the Nemesis Vanguard. Give it 5 Terran pulse lasers or beams for maximum accuracy and send it to fight 1 or 2 fighters and it will still lose lol. 1 fighter with shards can pontentially solo an M ship.

EDIT: I also want to point out that M turrets are way too weak. In X3, turrets behaved exactly the same as main guns, with their limited amount and energy consumption being the balancing factor. I understand that some compromise had to be made for X4 with its infinite energy turrets, but right now, they do less damage than MK1 s guns while taking a massive dump to their speed. A gunboat with it's 4 turrets has less dps than a fighter with 2 guns, all while being easier to kill.

Pulse Laser S MK2: 156 DPS, 4147 m/s 3.1 km range.
Pulse Laser S MK1: 81.5 DPS, 4147 m/s, 3.1 km range.
Pulse Laser M turret: 72 DPS, 1855 m/s, 3.4 km range.

Bolt Repeater S MK2: 213 DPS, 2400 m/s, 3 km range.
Bolt Repeater S MK1: 108 DPS, 2400 m/s, 3 km range.
Bolt Repeater M turret: 108 DPS, 1074 m/s, 3.3 km range.

And of course the famous M beams turrets:

Beam Emitter S MK2: 97.6, 3 km range.
Beam Emitter S MK1: 50, 3 km range.
Beam M Turret: 24 DPS (lol), 2.6 km range.

The only useful M turrets is Argon Flak. And while buffing M turrets will also buff destroyers, their turrets can be destroyed and torpedoes exist, so I don't think buffing m turrets will make destroyers oppressive.
Last edited by As25 on Sat, 4. Feb 23, 15:28, edited 1 time in total.

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chew-ie
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 15:13

As25 wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 14:43
Also, a big problem with X4 ai (most noticeable on destroyers) is their inability to aim their main weapons.
Best stay on topic (M ships) - especially as this point is solved in 6.0 beta.

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As25
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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by As25 » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 16:13

chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 15:13
Best stay on topic (M ships)
I am on topic, I was talking about the Nemesis.
chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Feb 23, 15:13
especially as this point is solved in 6.0 beta.
Mmm. You are begging to be quoted in some random video showcasing X4's poor ai after the patch drops. Get some fighters or corvettes with dumb missiles to attack an I. They will still miss such a gigantic target. The issue is not just with destroyers. Medium ships suffer from this problem as well.

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Re: Why are M ships so useless?

Post by abc0000 » Sat, 4. Feb 23, 20:26

From my point of view, ships need to be balanced like this:

М - cover for large ships from torpedo bombers \ patrol \ escort (merchants, miners)

Gunboat - a patrol ship built against fighters, should easily defeat 3 - 4 standard fighters

Corvette - specializes in combating other M ships, can compete with 1-2 fighters, or support with fire against a destroyer (knock out turrets)

Frigate - a medium ship designed for torpedo / missile attacks against large ships (attack single destroyers (patrol), large merchant ships, etc.)
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Fighters - Counter fighters \ torpedo bomber cover

Fighter - has 2-3 slots for weapons, 1-2 shields, and good speed, does well against torpedo bombers and other fighters

Heavy fighter - slower with more weapons, designed to fight M ships

Bomber - Fighter with 4+ torpedo launchers designed to fight heavy ships and stations.
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Destroyers - designed to fight other ships of their class, m ships and for the siege of stations

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Rebalancing M shields, increasing their charge speed (up to 33 - 50% of L shield speed), and removing the delay.

Reballance M turrets, increase their damage and flight speed, some range, and split them into tasks,

Beam - anti-missile

Bolt - against fighters (as an option, you can give them the opportunity to shoot down some shells, there will be a type of anti-shell defense)

Shotgun - medium between fighter and M

plasma - against large ships and M

Flac - against fighters

Pulse - is a little worse than a shotgun, but it can shoot down missiles =)

It is also necessary to rebalance the weapons of the fighters,
make specialized weapons against fast and maneuverable fighters, and separately against more *armored* but slower corvettes.

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And don't forget about rockets, they are not balanced at all. they just exist and that's it

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