Idea: Reintroduce Jump Drive via optional research

[Raptor34]

Not entirely sure what you mean, your 'put in a pot' idiom in particular is not something I've encountered before.

Obviously, you put Xenon into a pot by

Consequently guarding gates to Xenon sectors is most definitely an important strategic concern for me.

There is nothing wrong with how you play the game and like the game in its current state, the thing is, adding teleportation will add complexity to the game system which adds strategic depth to the game.

Only if there is an opportunity cost to it.

[flywlyx]

Only if there is an opportunity cost to it.

The game is here already, any change made will come with opportunity cost since no one could foresee the result.

[jlehtone]

On the contrary, AIs totally ignoring the gate limit will give X4 some "strategic depth" since you can't easily beat them with a single defense station anymore.

Does it? Or does it simplify the game? As is you can choose if, how, and where you stop Xenon. If you remove the option to stop Xenon, then you leave the "just kill them". Is that really "more depth"?

Not that it matters, both sides of the argument deem that their approach has "more strategic depth" and the other has "less". We clearly disagree on what "strategy" means. With no common terminology, how can we reach any productive conclusion?


X4 is designed to be without Jump Drive. Can we agree that X4 has plenty of details that dev resources could be allocated to ... within scope of its current design?

[Raptor34]

Only if there is an opportunity cost to it.

The game is here already, any change made will come with opportunity cost since no one could foresee the result.

Yeah right, obviously what I can see you're expecting is just being able to fit JDs fleet wide with no trade offs.

[GCU Grey Area]

Not entirely sure what you mean, your 'put in a pot' idiom in particular is not something I've encountered before.

Obviously, you put Xenon into a pot by

Consequently guarding gates to Xenon sectors is most definitely an important strategic concern for me.

There is nothing wrong with how you play the game and like the game in its current state, the thing is, adding teleportation will add complexity to the game system which adds strategic depth to the game.

Thanks for the clarification. When I read a post mentioning AI I tend to assume it's referring to code controlling ship movement, combat, etc. Your post is much clearer now I know you're referring to a faction being 'put in a pot'.

As for your other point, still far from convinced that letting factions jump around at will adds any complexity or strategic depth. Really like the border wars in X4. Not sure this aspect of the game would be improved if, for example, Second Contact II became a quiet sector because the war had devolved into Paranid fleets jumping straight to the Argon shipyard (& vice versa). In my current game Second Contact II's a fascinating place, there's almost always a fight going on somewhere. Someone different seems to own the sector every time I'm there because it's an essential stepping stone for further conquest. Even the Terrans owned it once, albeit very briefly (I got the Yaki to send a Xenon invasion fleet to Earth in retaliation).

[flywlyx]

Does it? Or does it simplify the game? As is you can choose if, how, and where you stop Xenon. If you remove the option to stop Xenon, then you leave the "just kill them". Is that really "more depth"?

Not that it matters, both sides of the argument deem that their approach has "more strategic depth" and the other has "less". We clearly disagree on what "strategy" means. With no common terminology, how can we reach any productive conclusion?

X4 is designed to be without Jump Drive. Can we agree that X4 has plenty of details that dev resources could be allocated to ... within scope of its current design?

You have to put a gate defense on every sector you want to guard if AI has jump drive, the additional defense station, or the fast response fleet is apparently more complex for players and is known as "strategic depth".

X4 is designed to be with highways and now we have "no highway" options in custom start. X22 is coming, this is the perfect timing to expend the scope of its next design.

Yeah right, obviously what I can see you're expecting is just being able to fit JDs fleet wide with no trade offs.

X3 with JDs is there, what trade-offs are in your mind that nobody knows here?

[Raptor34]

Yeah right, obviously what I can see you're expecting is just being able to fit JDs fleet wide with no trade offs.

X3 with JDs is there, what trade-offs are in your mind that nobody knows here?

X3 is precisely what I mean with no trade offs. Unless you're running a Tyr. But a Tyr already has issues running a max complement regardless anyway.
Of all the other ships how many of them actually have a cost to running a JD? You just put all your guns, throw in a JD and EC and that's it. You don't need to think, you just do it.

[flywlyx]

X3 is precisely what I mean with no trade offs. Unless you're running a Tyr. But a Tyr already has issues running a max complement regardless anyway.
Of all the other ships how many of them actually have a cost to running a JD? You just put all your guns, throw in a JD and EC and that's it. You don't need to think, you just do it.

I have no problem Ego puts more restrictions and "strategic depth" into it.
From my point of view, the problem it solves is the lack of AI intelligence, if they could make a better AI without jump drive, that is great. But the fact is players just need a defense station beside the exit gate, the universe terminator Xenon becomes a cat in a pot.

As for your other point, still far from convinced that letting factions jump around at will adds any complexity or strategic depth. Really like the border wars in X4. Not sure this aspect of the game would be improved if, for example, Second Contact II became a quiet sector because the war had devolved into Paranid fleets jumping straight to the Argon shipyard (& vice versa). In my current game Second Contact II's a fascinating place, there's almost always a fight going on somewhere. Someone different seems to own the sector every time I'm there because it's an essential stepping stone for further conquest. Even the Terrans owned it once, albeit very briefly (I got the Yaki to send a Xenon invasion fleet to Earth in retaliation).

Where they go will still be controlled by the script, Xenon is the only one I think jumping all over make sense since it are the "ultimate bad guy".
For other factions, jumping to the core sector doesn't really make sense since it will cost more EC due to the long distance while the opponent spends less. But JD will help AI's sector patrols reach their destination faster, they are way too slow at the moment.

[Nanook]

X3 is precisely what I mean with no trade offs. Unless you're running a Tyr. But a Tyr already has issues running a max complement regardless anyway.
Of all the other ships how many of them actually have a cost to running a JD? You just put all your guns, throw in a JD and EC and that's it. You don't need to think, you just do it.

I have no problem Ego puts more restrictions and "strategic depth" into it.
From my point of view, the problem it solves is the lack of AI intelligence, if they could make a better AI without jump drive, that is great. But the fact is players just need a defense station beside the exit gate, the universe terminator Xenon becomes a cat in a pot.

Your premise is flawed, IMO. What makes you think the AI having jump drives is going to help with your "cat in a pot" scenario? All it will do is create chaos with no direction. Currently, if a faction invades a neighboring sector, they can potentially take it over. I very much doubt that will happen if the AI jumps into the middle of an enemy faction's domain. Most likely, they'd get stomped out just as fast as at your gate defenses. Beside, the only faction that can effectively blockade a sector is the player, so AI vs AI is pretty much even. The AI does not build effective gate defenses, in my experience.

For that matter, if the player can build bulletproof gate defenses to keep out the Xenon, the player can also jump huge fleets into the middle of Xenon territory and wipe them out. So what's the difference? I really fail to see one. No matter what, it's always the player's choice - wipe out the Xenon or don't wipe out the Xenon. Jump drives will not make a difference.

[flywlyx]

Your premise is flawed, IMO. What makes you think the AI having jump drives is going to help with your "cat in a pot" scenario? All it will do is create chaos with no direction. Currently, if a faction invades a neighboring sector, they can potentially take it over. I very much doubt that will happen if the AI jumps into the middle of an enemy faction's domain. Most likely, they'd get stomped out just as fast as at your gate defenses. Beside, the only faction that can effectively blockade a sector is the player, so AI vs AI is pretty much even. The AI does not build effective gate defenses, in my experience.

For that matter, if the player can build bulletproof gate defenses to keep out the Xenon, the player can also jump huge fleets into the middle of Xenon territory and wipe them out. So what's the difference? I really fail to see one. No matter what, it's always the player's choice - wipe out the Xenon or don't wipe out the Xenon. Jump drives will not make a difference.

Dev decides where AI goes, so for normal factions, they could still follow the general rule of the border war, since that is the most economic choice.
And yes, this is mostly between Xenon and the player, the difference is, I can still travel drive to the center of Xenon territory now and wipe them out while Xenon could be blocked by a single gate defense that I put at its gate.
If Xenon has jump drive, I need more gate defense to achieve the same goal.

[jlehtone]

If Xenon has jump drive, I need more gate defense to achieve the same goal.

The strategy in both cases would still be to harass Xenon with station(s) at the Gate(s).
Would the additional cost make you consider some other strategy?

What if I'm happy with one sector? One set of Gate(s) to block, just like now?

The AI in X3 did not have smarts to use JumpDrive. Dev challenges are (A) improve AI, or (B) improve AI (to use JD).
Everyone benefits from option A. Even the users of the next game.

[flywlyx]

The strategy in both cases would still be to harass Xenon with station(s) at the Gate(s).
Would the additional cost make you consider some other strategy?

What if I'm happy with one sector? One set of Gate(s) to block, just like now?

The AI in X3 did not have smarts to use JumpDrive. Dev challenges are (A) improve AI, or (B) improve AI (to use JD).
Everyone benefits from option A. Even the users of the next game.

A fast response fleet or stronger patrol fleet is obviously cheaper.

If you could have all your trade/mining done in a single sector, yes.

The AI spawns from thin air in X3, it is not about smart or not.
X4 AI has way more problems than simply describing something as "improve". JD is a game mechanics change that has only minimal impact on AI(only part of the move command) compared to any complex improvement.

[euclid]

A moot point as the EGO Dev Team has made crystal clear that there won't be a JD in any future X game.

Anyway, X4 is way more easier than X3 because there is no JD anymore. You put some static defense at each gate/superhighway exit and the system is safe. In X3 it was way more difficult and challenging to secure a system because the enemy could jump in anywhere and at anytime.

In my current game I've conquered most Xenon systems, placed defense stations right at the gates and just have some ships on system patrol to "scan" for building sites (yes, you cannot get rid of them). Honestly, it's boring compared to X3

Cheers Euclid

[GCU Grey Area]

Where they go will still be controlled by the script, Xenon is the only one I think jumping all over make sense since it are the "ultimate bad guy".
For other factions, jumping to the core sector doesn't really make sense since it will cost more EC due to the long distance while the opponent spends less. But JD will help AI's sector patrols reach their destination faster, they are way too slow at the moment.

EC cost is pretty much irrelevant, they'd still beeline the shipyards & other high value targets if given half a chance. That's exactly what they do now if they capture a sector adjacent to an enemy sector containing such stations (& with a jumpdrive EVERY sector would effectively be adjacent to EVERY shipyard).

Example from one of my recent games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mao1fl1bcqy38 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Note the location of ANT's shipyard, trade station & equipment dock (hint - not in Antigone Memorial anymore). Terrans did that in the brief time they held The Void until the Argons could kick them out.

It's the optimal strategy - destroy enemy ship production facilities & that faction faction is significantly weakened, unable to replace their losses until those stations can be rebuilt.

[flywlyx]

A moot point as the EGO Dev Team has made crystal clear that there won't be a JD in any future X game.

This is such a pity.

EC cost is pretty much irrelevant, they'd still beeline the shipyards & other high value targets if given half a chance. That's exactly what they do now if they capture a sector adjacent to an enemy sector containing such stations (& with a jumpdrive EVERY sector would effectively be adjacent to EVERY shipyard).

Example from one of my recent games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mao1fl1bcqy38 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Note the location of ANT's shipyard, trade station & equipment dock (hint - not in Antigone Memorial anymore). Terrans did that in the brief time they held The Void until the Argons could kick them out.

It's the optimal strategy - destroy enemy ship production facilities & that faction faction is significantly weakened, unable to replace their losses until those stations can be rebuilt.

Nah, AI doesn't really have a target priority as far as I can tell, they destroy what comes into their sight.

Because TER intervasion force has the destination to different Xenon sectors, I frequently had Argon Wharf in Argon Prime destroyed, but TER leave Argon shipyard along, because it is not on its way.

The root cause is Argon's lack of force to counter TER's attack, no matter AI has JD or not, as far as the script allows, it will happen.

But for players it is different, a player only needs minimum effort to shut AI in a certain sector since AI doesn't have JD now.

[Raptor34]

Where they go will still be controlled by the script, Xenon is the only one I think jumping all over make sense since it are the "ultimate bad guy".
For other factions, jumping to the core sector doesn't really make sense since it will cost more EC due to the long distance while the opponent spends less. But JD will help AI's sector patrols reach their destination faster, they are way too slow at the moment.

EC cost is pretty much irrelevant, they'd still beeline the shipyards & other high value targets if given half a chance. That's exactly what they do now if they capture a sector adjacent to an enemy sector containing such stations (& with a jumpdrive EVERY sector would effectively be adjacent to EVERY shipyard).

Example from one of my recent games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mao1fl1bcqy38 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Note the location of ANT's shipyard, trade station & equipment dock (hint - not in Antigone Memorial anymore). Terrans did that in the brief time they held The Void until the Argons could kick them out.

It's the optimal strategy - destroy enemy ship production facilities & that faction faction is significantly weakened, unable to replace their losses until those stations can be rebuilt.

I fondly (not really) remember that time I checked my losses and noticed one of my supposedly safe ships are gone, double checked and so is the ARG wharf in Argon Prime.
Apparently a HOP fleet decided to bypass Second Contact and went straight for the Wharf.
Then they did it again later though this time they whacked some other station south of the wharf.

[GCU Grey Area]

Nah, AI doesn't really have a target priority as far as I can tell, they destroy what comes into their sight.

Because TER intervasion force has the destination to different Xenon sectors, I frequently had Argon Wharf in Argon Prime destroyed, but TER leave Argon shipyard along, because it is not on its way.

The root cause is Argon's lack of force to counter TER's attack, no matter AI has JD or not, as far as the script allows, it will happen.

But for players it is different, a player only needs minimum effort to shut AI in a certain sector since AI doesn't have JD now.

Suspect TER Intervention may be a special case - they have a specific job to do & don't even have to follow the same rules in terms of having to capture a sector before they can move onto the next. Intervention will fight the Argons if they get in the way (assuming TER v ARG war has been declared) but the Xenon are always their primary target. TER forces I was referring to in my earlier post were standard TER military, not Intervention. Antigone Memorial is not on the flightpath Intervention takes to get to the Xenon sectors, so very much doubt they were involved. Note also there were plenty of other potential targets in ANT territory left intact while TER forces blew up the shipyard, equipment dock & trade station. There's clearly some target prioritisation going on. Furthermore, have observed the same pattern with other factions when they've pushed close to sector with an enemy shipyard (or wharf, etc) e.g. PAR attacking HOP, HOP attacking ANT. If they get close enough to launch an attack on a core sector the shipyard & other primary stations are priority targets. In the latter case HOP were really quite merciless at hunting down ANT ship building facilities, often destroying them well before they were finished or even capable of producing any ships (3.0 game where HOP were by far the strongest faction militarily). Ended up having to build a shipyard of my own, just to give ANT a fighting chance.

[Nanook]

...
Nah, AI doesn't really have a target priority as far as I can tell, they destroy what comes into their sight.

Because TER intervasion force has the destination to different Xenon sectors, I frequently had Argon Wharf in Argon Prime destroyed, but TER leave Argon shipyard along, because it is not on its way.

The root cause is Argon's lack of force to counter TER's attack, no matter AI has JD or not, as far as the script allows, it will happen. ...

What happens is that the turrets on the Terran ships, especially the Asgaard, are set to attack all enemies. So are the Argon turrets. So when the Terran ships fly through Argon Prime, they're in range of the turrets on the Wharf, and so they engage each other, with the result the Wharf usually loses. That's why only the Argon stations along the route get destroyed. The Terrans are not intentionally attacking the Argon at this point. Their "target priority" is the Xenon. This isn't a lack of AI ability. It's basically self defense, so you can't really use it as an example of AI incompetence.

And this is probably why it appears to you that the Xenon don't prioritize. When they enter a sector they want to conquer, they go after the Admin Centers first, so Defense Stations, Trading Stations, Shipyards, Wharves, and Equipment Docks. What you're probably seeing is the same thing as in Argon Prime with the Terrans. As the Xenon pass within range of other stations, their turrets will first engage, then those stations gets attacked first. I've seen it happen in sectors that are very spread out where the Xenon make a beeline for those priority targets in order to claim a sector, totally ignoring other stations that aren't in turret range.

Remember, the targets that the Xenon go after have to first be found by their T-scouts. So if those scouts don't find the admin center stations, the Xenon will attack other targets first.

[flywlyx]

Suspect TER Intervention may be a special case - they have a specific job to do & don't even have to follow the same rules in terms of having to capture a sector before they can move onto the next. Intervention will fight the Argons if they get in the way (assuming TER v ARG war has been declared) but the Xenon are always their primary target. TER forces I was referring to in my earlier post were standard TER military, not Intervention. Antigone Memorial is not on the flightpath Intervention takes to get to the Xenon sectors, so very much doubt they were involved. Note also there were plenty of other potential targets in ANT territory left intact while TER forces blew up the shipyard, equipment dock & trade station. There's clearly some target prioritisation going on. Furthermore, have observed the same pattern with other factions when they've pushed close to sector with an enemy shipyard (or wharf, etc) e.g. PAR attacking HOP, HOP attacking ANT. If they get close enough to launch an attack on a core sector the shipyard & other primary stations are priority targets. In the latter case HOP were really quite merciless at hunting down ANT ship building facilities, often destroying them well before they were finished or even capable of producing any ships (3.0 game where HOP were by far the strongest faction militarily). Ended up having to build a shipyard of my own, just to give ANT a fighting chance.

Order is the same, they "patrol" to a certain point in a certain sector, the difference is, for the intervention force, the destination is a position in a Xenon sector, for the general patrol force, there is a position list for each sector in its code.
The position list probably is the same list when AI builds its defense station/wharf/shipyard, but which target is there is random.

What happens is that the turrets on the Terran ships, especially the Asgaard, are set to attack all enemies. So are the Argon turrets. So when the Terran ships fly through Argon Prime, they're in range of the turrets on the Wharf, and so they engage each other, with the result the Wharf usually loses. That's why only the Argon stations along the route get destroyed. The Terrans are not intentionally attacking the Argon at this point. Their "target priority" is the Xenon. This isn't a lack of AI ability. It's basically self defense, so you can't really use it as an example of AI incompetence.

And this is probably why it appears to you that the Xenon don't prioritize. When they enter a sector they want to conquer, they go after the Admin Centers first, so Defense Stations, Trading Stations, Shipyards, Wharves, and Equipment Docks. What you're probably seeing is the same thing as in Argon Prime with the Terrans. As the Xenon pass within range of other stations, their turrets will first engage, then those stations gets attacked first. I've seen it happen in sectors that are very spread out where the Xenon make a beeline for those priority targets in order to claim a sector, totally ignoring other stations that aren't in turret range.

Remember, the targets that the Xenon go after have to first be found by their T-scouts. So if those scouts don't find the admin center stations, the Xenon will attack other targets first.

Asgard gets its "attack Argon Wharf" order way before Argon Wharf's turrets could reach the Asgard.
AI factions use the same command system as players' AI captains, the order of the intervention force is "patrol" to a certain point in Xenon space, you could try it with your ships, and they will attack anything on their way.

[Nanook]

...

Asgard gets its "attack Argon Wharf" order way before Argon Wharf's turrets could reach the Asgard.

Quite possibly because the local Argon forces have already engaged the Asgard long before it reaches the wharf, since the Argon forces are under the control (generally speaking) of the wharf and/or shipyard. However, the Asgard does not go out of its way to attack anything Argon as it passes through.

AI factions use the same command system as players' AI captains, the order of the intervention force is "patrol" to a certain point in Xenon space, you could try it with your ships, and they will attack anything on their way.

And the key words here are "anything on their way," not 'out of their way.' In other words, the Terrans are NOT targeting Argon Prime at this point, they're simply responding to attacks. If you look at the description of the fleet, it's called an Intervention fleet, meaning their target priority is the Xenon. So it's wrong to claim the AI is dumb just because they didn't wipe out the Argon shipyard, too. That wasn't in their orders.

If the Terrans were really targeting Argon Prime, they would've had to take over first The Void, and then Second Contact Flashpoint. Then, and only then, would they have wiped out Argon Prime.