Idea: Reintroduce Jump Drive via optional research

[Raptor34]

Where they go will still be controlled by the script, Xenon is the only one I think jumping all over make sense since it are the "ultimate bad guy".
For other factions, jumping to the core sector doesn't really make sense since it will cost more EC due to the long distance while the opponent spends less. But JD will help AI's sector patrols reach their destination faster, they are way too slow at the moment.

EC cost is pretty much irrelevant, they'd still beeline the shipyards & other high value targets if given half a chance. That's exactly what they do now if they capture a sector adjacent to an enemy sector containing such stations (& with a jumpdrive EVERY sector would effectively be adjacent to EVERY shipyard).

Example from one of my recent games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mao1fl1bcqy38 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Note the location of ANT's shipyard, trade station & equipment dock (hint - not in Antigone Memorial anymore). Terrans did that in the brief time they held The Void until the Argons could kick them out.

It's the optimal strategy - destroy enemy ship production facilities & that faction faction is significantly weakened, unable to replace their losses until those stations can be rebuilt.

I fondly (not really) remember that time I checked my losses and noticed one of my supposedly safe ships are gone, double checked and so is the ARG wharf in Argon Prime.
Apparently a HOP fleet decided to bypass Second Contact and went straight for the Wharf.
Then they did it again later though this time they whacked some other station south of the wharf.

[GCU Grey Area]

Nah, AI doesn't really have a target priority as far as I can tell, they destroy what comes into their sight.

Because TER intervasion force has the destination to different Xenon sectors, I frequently had Argon Wharf in Argon Prime destroyed, but TER leave Argon shipyard along, because it is not on its way.

The root cause is Argon's lack of force to counter TER's attack, no matter AI has JD or not, as far as the script allows, it will happen.

But for players it is different, a player only needs minimum effort to shut AI in a certain sector since AI doesn't have JD now.

Suspect TER Intervention may be a special case - they have a specific job to do & don't even have to follow the same rules in terms of having to capture a sector before they can move onto the next. Intervention will fight the Argons if they get in the way (assuming TER v ARG war has been declared) but the Xenon are always their primary target. TER forces I was referring to in my earlier post were standard TER military, not Intervention. Antigone Memorial is not on the flightpath Intervention takes to get to the Xenon sectors, so very much doubt they were involved. Note also there were plenty of other potential targets in ANT territory left intact while TER forces blew up the shipyard, equipment dock & trade station. There's clearly some target prioritisation going on. Furthermore, have observed the same pattern with other factions when they've pushed close to sector with an enemy shipyard (or wharf, etc) e.g. PAR attacking HOP, HOP attacking ANT. If they get close enough to launch an attack on a core sector the shipyard & other primary stations are priority targets. In the latter case HOP were really quite merciless at hunting down ANT ship building facilities, often destroying them well before they were finished or even capable of producing any ships (3.0 game where HOP were by far the strongest faction militarily). Ended up having to build a shipyard of my own, just to give ANT a fighting chance.

[Nanook]

...
Nah, AI doesn't really have a target priority as far as I can tell, they destroy what comes into their sight.

Because TER intervasion force has the destination to different Xenon sectors, I frequently had Argon Wharf in Argon Prime destroyed, but TER leave Argon shipyard along, because it is not on its way.

The root cause is Argon's lack of force to counter TER's attack, no matter AI has JD or not, as far as the script allows, it will happen. ...

What happens is that the turrets on the Terran ships, especially the Asgaard, are set to attack all enemies. So are the Argon turrets. So when the Terran ships fly through Argon Prime, they're in range of the turrets on the Wharf, and so they engage each other, with the result the Wharf usually loses. That's why only the Argon stations along the route get destroyed. The Terrans are not intentionally attacking the Argon at this point. Their "target priority" is the Xenon. This isn't a lack of AI ability. It's basically self defense, so you can't really use it as an example of AI incompetence.

And this is probably why it appears to you that the Xenon don't prioritize. When they enter a sector they want to conquer, they go after the Admin Centers first, so Defense Stations, Trading Stations, Shipyards, Wharves, and Equipment Docks. What you're probably seeing is the same thing as in Argon Prime with the Terrans. As the Xenon pass within range of other stations, their turrets will first engage, then those stations gets attacked first. I've seen it happen in sectors that are very spread out where the Xenon make a beeline for those priority targets in order to claim a sector, totally ignoring other stations that aren't in turret range.

Remember, the targets that the Xenon go after have to first be found by their T-scouts. So if those scouts don't find the admin center stations, the Xenon will attack other targets first.

[flywlyx]

Suspect TER Intervention may be a special case - they have a specific job to do & don't even have to follow the same rules in terms of having to capture a sector before they can move onto the next. Intervention will fight the Argons if they get in the way (assuming TER v ARG war has been declared) but the Xenon are always their primary target. TER forces I was referring to in my earlier post were standard TER military, not Intervention. Antigone Memorial is not on the flightpath Intervention takes to get to the Xenon sectors, so very much doubt they were involved. Note also there were plenty of other potential targets in ANT territory left intact while TER forces blew up the shipyard, equipment dock & trade station. There's clearly some target prioritisation going on. Furthermore, have observed the same pattern with other factions when they've pushed close to sector with an enemy shipyard (or wharf, etc) e.g. PAR attacking HOP, HOP attacking ANT. If they get close enough to launch an attack on a core sector the shipyard & other primary stations are priority targets. In the latter case HOP were really quite merciless at hunting down ANT ship building facilities, often destroying them well before they were finished or even capable of producing any ships (3.0 game where HOP were by far the strongest faction militarily). Ended up having to build a shipyard of my own, just to give ANT a fighting chance.

Order is the same, they "patrol" to a certain point in a certain sector, the difference is, for the intervention force, the destination is a position in a Xenon sector, for the general patrol force, there is a position list for each sector in its code.
The position list probably is the same list when AI builds its defense station/wharf/shipyard, but which target is there is random.

What happens is that the turrets on the Terran ships, especially the Asgaard, are set to attack all enemies. So are the Argon turrets. So when the Terran ships fly through Argon Prime, they're in range of the turrets on the Wharf, and so they engage each other, with the result the Wharf usually loses. That's why only the Argon stations along the route get destroyed. The Terrans are not intentionally attacking the Argon at this point. Their "target priority" is the Xenon. This isn't a lack of AI ability. It's basically self defense, so you can't really use it as an example of AI incompetence.

And this is probably why it appears to you that the Xenon don't prioritize. When they enter a sector they want to conquer, they go after the Admin Centers first, so Defense Stations, Trading Stations, Shipyards, Wharves, and Equipment Docks. What you're probably seeing is the same thing as in Argon Prime with the Terrans. As the Xenon pass within range of other stations, their turrets will first engage, then those stations gets attacked first. I've seen it happen in sectors that are very spread out where the Xenon make a beeline for those priority targets in order to claim a sector, totally ignoring other stations that aren't in turret range.

Remember, the targets that the Xenon go after have to first be found by their T-scouts. So if those scouts don't find the admin center stations, the Xenon will attack other targets first.

Asgard gets its "attack Argon Wharf" order way before Argon Wharf's turrets could reach the Asgard.
AI factions use the same command system as players' AI captains, the order of the intervention force is "patrol" to a certain point in Xenon space, you could try it with your ships, and they will attack anything on their way.

[Nanook]

...

Asgard gets its "attack Argon Wharf" order way before Argon Wharf's turrets could reach the Asgard.

Quite possibly because the local Argon forces have already engaged the Asgard long before it reaches the wharf, since the Argon forces are under the control (generally speaking) of the wharf and/or shipyard. However, the Asgard does not go out of its way to attack anything Argon as it passes through.

AI factions use the same command system as players' AI captains, the order of the intervention force is "patrol" to a certain point in Xenon space, you could try it with your ships, and they will attack anything on their way.

And the key words here are "anything on their way," not 'out of their way.' In other words, the Terrans are NOT targeting Argon Prime at this point, they're simply responding to attacks. If you look at the description of the fleet, it's called an Intervention fleet, meaning their target priority is the Xenon. So it's wrong to claim the AI is dumb just because they didn't wipe out the Argon shipyard, too. That wasn't in their orders.

If the Terrans were really targeting Argon Prime, they would've had to take over first The Void, and then Second Contact Flashpoint. Then, and only then, would they have wiped out Argon Prime.

[flywlyx]

And the key words here are "anything on their way," not 'out of their way.' In other words, the Terrans are NOT targeting Argon Prime at this point, they're simply responding to attacks. If you look at the description of the fleet, it's called an Intervention fleet, meaning their target priority is the Xenon. So it's wrong to claim the AI is dumb just because they didn't wipe out the Argon shipyard, too. That wasn't in their orders.

If the Terrans were really targeting Argon Prime, they would've had to take over first The Void, and then Second Contact Flashpoint. Then, and only then, would they have wiped out Argon Prime.

There is no such thing as "target priority" or like you said

When they enter a sector they want to conquer, they go after the Admin Centers first, so Defense Stations, Trading Stations, Shipyards, Wharves, and Equipment Docks.

They only have a series of coordinates and eliminate everything on their way. The only difference between their order is the location of their destination, the Intervention force is somewhere in a Xenon sector, and other patrol fleets have their own destination list.

[jlehtone]

In X3 it was way more difficult and challenging to secure a system because the enemy could jump in anywhere and at anytime.

I have to disagree. The "enemy" did not jump in X3, not until RRF. Even the RRF did not jump to attack, only as response to attack.
At most X2/X3R Xenon invasion (and X3AP war) did mimic jumping, but those were very predictable.

The only enemy that was able to "jump in anywhere and at anytime" in X2/X3 was the player. We definitely have no need for that.

They only have a series of coordinates and eliminate everything on their way. The only difference between their order is the location of their destination, the Intervention force is somewhere in a Xenon sector, and other patrol fleets have their own destination list.

Exactly. Intervention has coordinates in some Xenon sector and Argon Wharf just happens to be on their way.

[Falcrack]

As this thread is still alive to my chagrine, I'll just point out that the main point I was trying to emphasize was making it optional for players. Not whether you personally feel jump drives in X4 are a good or bad idea. Something to be able to potentially satisfy people on both sides of the issue. Hardly anyone in this thread has touched upon that critical aspect.

Let's pretend a magic fairy existed that could implement this into the game without eating into any precious developer time at all, and it could be implemented in a balanced, sensible manner, while still remaining completely optional.

That is all.

[CBJ]

Hardly anyone in this thread has touched upon that critical aspect.

Lots of people have touched on it. Many of the people saying that they don't want it even as an option aren't just being contrary, they are saying that because they understand that something this fundamental can't be added to the game as an option without changing the entire game. I've explained before why making something optional isn't a magic solution to such problems, and this is an even more extreme example than the one that I was referring to in that post. In this case it's not even just about development time or testing overhead; whether or not there is a jumpdrive affects the entire game design, from the universe layout, to mission design, to balancing, AI, UI, and everything else in between.

[flywlyx]

Lots of people have touched on it. Many of the people saying that they don't want it even as an option aren't just being contrary, they are saying that because they understand that something this fundamental can't be added to the game as an option without changing the entire game. I've explained before why making something optional isn't a magic solution to such problems, and this is an even more extreme example than the one that I was referring to in that post. In this case it's not even just about development time or testing overhead; whether or not there is a jumpdrive affects the entire game design, from the universe layout, to mission design, to balancing, AI, UI, and everything else in between.

What is the difference between highway/no highway vs jump drive/no jump drive?
I didn't see an entire game design change when the "no highway" option was added.
I have used jump drive mod in previous modded games, I didn't notice any game-breaking issue (or maybe other dynamic war mods fixed it).
You are assuming nobody knows what will happen and how to implant jump drive in the game which is not true at all.

[Nanook]

...

What is the difference between highway/no highway vs jump drive/no jump drive?
I didn't see an entire game design change when the "no highway" option was added. ...

The highway doesn't let the player go anywhere at any time. And as I've found in my games, all of which are played without highways, btw, the AI and the economy work just fine using travel drive. Highways are totally unnecessary so no fundamental game design is/was required. That's not the case for jumpdrives.

[flywlyx]

The highway doesn't let the player go anywhere at any time. And as I've found in my games, all of which are played without highways, btw, the AI and the economy work just fine using travel drive. Highways are totally unnecessary so no fundamental game design is/was required. That's not the case for jumpdrives.

There are jump drive MODs out there, try yourself and tell me how broken it is.
My games run perfectly fine with them.

[jlehtone]

There are jump drive MODs out there, try yourself and tell me how broken it is.
My games run perfectly fine with them.

Do the NPC factions use those to jump even when you don't?

[waadaa85]

To those voting no, I'm curious as to why you object?

Since you asked, voted NO because it would rob the game of strategic depth. 'Make it optional' is not a compromise position because there's an opportunity cost to everything the devs do. There's a host of things I'd very much prefer the devs to be working on (bug fixes, new features, Borons, etc) than for them to spend any time at all time working on something I'd never use.

Honest question Falcrack, and the answer provided pretty well summarize my thoughts too, I voted "No".

I would add this: I think, having the capacity to teleport the HQ is in itself already pretty OP !! Given you are planning in advance and build a massive defense bridges-defense disks "belt" all around the HQ. Loaded with enough resources to research 3-4 teleportations jumps without replenishing, and in matter of minutes you can take over a well defended sector quite easily. Then use the HQ as a mobile ring defense station, blocking all incoming while you're building a static ring defense station at the other ring's exit (I'm using Volko's ball-of-destruction for that purpose, marvellous!!) Rince and repeat over a chain of sectors. Strategic depth is in the planning and execution of such operation. It's Quite rewarding . The "rince and repeat " part isn't that obvious. Depending of the state of your supply routes and stations locations, you can easily overstretch

At this stage of X4 game's life, Bug fixing and performance improvements are (imho) a priority. If devs can put all the backend calculations and economy engine (or other intensive stuff) in a independent executable that a player can run on another host acting as a processing server (through multi-threading/networked distributed processing,etc.), like Arma3 server), it would help freeing up much needed resources on the main host driving the graphical end and UI. It could open the door for an eventual coop-gameplay module where people are gathering around a host server able to provide a centralized economic backend, for example.

Food for thoughts

[Nanook]

The highway doesn't let the player go anywhere at any time. And as I've found in my games, all of which are played without highways, btw, the AI and the economy work just fine using travel drive. Highways are totally unnecessary so no fundamental game design is/was required. That's not the case for jumpdrives.

There are jump drive MODs out there, try yourself and tell me how broken it is.
My games run perfectly fine with them.

I suppose so if you like great big red I WIN buttons.

Personally I stopped using jumpdrives the last few X3TC/AP games I played, with the exception of a few plot missions where it was mandatory, simply because it made things way too easy for me, the player. Jumpdrives are one of those 'features' that should remain as a third party mod, not integrated into the game.

[GCU Grey Area]

Personally I stopped using jumpdrives the last few X3TC/AP games I played, with the exception of a few plot missions where it was mandatory, simply because it made things way too easy for me, the player. Jumpdrives are one of those 'features' that should remain as a third party mod, not integrated into the game.

Encountered much the same in my pure piracy X3 games, where absolutely everything including ships & the equipment installed on them had to be stolen. Some missions were simply impossible until I captured a ship with an intact jumpdrive (mission timers seemed to assume you'd got one), but after that those same impossible missions became trivially easy, because now everything in the universe was only a couple of minute's flight time from everything else (considerably less if the destination was next to a gate). Omitting jumpdrives from X4 was one of the best decisions they made as far as I'm concerned, & essential in a game where strategy & logistics finally matter.

[flywlyx]

Do the NPC factions use those to jump even when you don't?

The Player's faction gets a better one, but AI is capable to use them without breaking any system.

I suppose so if you like great big red I WIN buttons.

Personally I stopped using jumpdrives the last few X3TC/AP games I played, with the exception of a few plot missions where it was mandatory, simply because it made things way too easy for me, the player. Jumpdrives are one of those 'features' that should remain as a third party mod, not integrated into the game.

X4 is way easier than X3 since Xenon could be easily contained in their sectors with a gate defense station.
The fact is, players could still travel drive to any sector they want with or without jump drive, the AI won't able to intercept players anyway.

[Smart_Bomb]

I would say yes bring back jump drives, but with conditions:

• Only capital ships can use jump drives

• Increase the cost of jumping

• the further the distance the more energy cells used

• Increase wind up and wind down times

• when you come out of warp you have a shield and engine penalty for a certain amount of time

• Ships docked in the capital ship go with it

• jump point is not 100% accurate and cannot jump near stations or other capital ships

Then it would be more realistic and viable.

[Nanook]

...
X4 is way easier than X3 since Xenon could be easily contained in their sectors with a gate defense station.
The fact is, players could still travel drive to any sector they want with or without jump drive, the AI won't able to intercept players anyway.

You're way over simplifying things. First of all, it's only the player that can "easily contain..." the Xenon with a gate defense. The NPC's are incapable of doing it.

Second, yes, the player can travel to any sector with travel drive, in a properly equipped, very fast ship. I challenge you to take a slow, plodding destroyer from Hatikvah's I to Savage Spur and tell us that you weren't "intercepted." Or maybe from Getsu Fune to Earth when you're at war with the Terrans. And try taking a whole fleet with you in either case. Jump drive? Sure! Travel Drive? Not so much.

...

Then it would be more realistic and viable.

There's nothing even remotely "realistic" about jumpdrives.

[Smart_Bomb]

...

Then it would be more realistic and viable.


There's nothing even remotely "realistic" about jumpdrives.

Challenge accepted