Idea: Reintroduce Jump Drive via optional research

[flywlyx]

You're way over simplifying things. First of all, it's only the player that can "easily contain..." the Xenon with a gate defense. The NPC's are incapable of doing it.

Second, yes, the player can travel to any sector with travel drive, in a properly equipped, very fast ship. I challenge you to take a slow, plodding destroyer from Hatikvah's I to Savage Spur and tell us that you weren't "intercepted." Or maybe from Getsu Fune to Earth when you're at war with the Terrans. And try taking a whole fleet with you in either case. Jump drive? Sure! Travel Drive? Not so much.

Why do I need a whole fleet while I only need one ship to eliminate the whole faction?
You keep assuming players are "weak" and limited to "slow, plodding destroyers" while it is totally not what players do, players prefer big and better ships.
It is the AI that needs jump drive to jump out of players' simple gate defense.

[Smart_Bomb]

Sounds like what you really want tougher and well-rounded AI. I'm for it too, larger ships should have a bigger compliment of supporting fighters and the bigger your ship the harder it is to deal with smaller ships.

[jlehtone]

It is the AI that needs jump drive to jump out of players' simple gate defense.

The AI did not have jump drives in X3 either. Gate defense (by player) on select points was as much a thing in X3 as it is in X4.

I do agree that player is the only evil thing in the game. Is it our fault that Egosoft refuses to give AI what it needs?

[flywlyx]

The AI did not have jump drives in X3 either. Gate defense (by player) on select points was as much a thing in X3 as it is in X4.

I do agree that player is the only evil thing in the game. Is it our fault that Egosoft refuses to give AI what it needs?

But AI could spawn ships in X3, there is no simple gate defense to lock down Xenon, you need to defense every sector that Xenon could spawn.

I am ok that indie company can't provide a complex AI, but at least make the system AI-friendly.

[TheDeliveryMan]

It is the AI that needs jump drive to jump out of players' simple gate defense.

But then you also get AI jumping into each other's core sectors and all over the place.

[jlehtone]

But AI could spawn ships in X3, there is no simple gate defense to lock down Xenon, you need to defense every sector that Xenon could spawn.

There were variations. In X2 all Xenon did spawn in the sector that had Xenon Shipyard. Then they did "migrate" to their posts (like herd to slaughterhouse).

In X3R, yes, each Xenon sector had at least imaginary shipyard. You were not able to take ownership of sectors nor disable those shipyards, but then again neither did NPC. I don't recall blockading every Gate to Xenon space in X3R; many parts of Galaxy were "expendable" (as they did not make threats stronger). If AI had had jumpdrives, they would have spawned/jumped to space of other factions. That did not happen.

Do you count FAF Rattlesnakes to have jumpdrives, because they "spawn" in FRF space?
The SCA do spawn outside SCA space? They "jump" more than anything in X3 (except RRF and the ATF that spawned into tailpipes of Megalodons during the War).

I am ok that indie company can't provide a complex AI, but at least make the system AI-friendly.

An obvious route is to make the game player-unfriendly. Very unfriendly. That has other "issues".

[Slashman]

You know this part of the discussion actually reminds me of Endless Legend. A modder by the name of LeaderEnemyBoss actually worked on a holistic improvement mod for the game that part of it was making the AI REALLY good and there were players who hated that the AI could beat them fairly and somewhat easily. You really had to up your game to stand a chance against the AI on hard because it knew the game systems well.

In any case, there will be players complaining that the AI is too hard if that were to suddenly happen as well. I mean could you imagine if every part of the AI was suddenly improved so that even small fighters were a real threat and you had to seriously work just to get an Asp fighter pilot to bail. That the AI suddenly started to compensate for all its deficiencies and didn't need the player to build stations because it was already on the job and producing destroyer fleets equipped with the best and capable of flying the best. Where would the player fit into this?

When people start asking for improved AI (and make no mistake it is different for every player that says make the AI better), they really mean make the part of the game that I perceive as weak or boring better and leave everything else as is. Players don't really want a fair playing field, they want what matters to them fixed so that they can play the game the way they perceive to be better. The issue is that's not the same for everybody.

That is ultimately where this jump drive thread stems from. I want to be able to use jump drives because it fills a niche that I find to be missing, even though a lot of people don't seem to think it is critical to their game. This is usually where you would point the person to modders but they believe that it should be in the vanilla game.

[jlehtone]

You know this part of the discussion actually reminds me of Endless Legend. A modder by the name of LeaderEnemyBoss actually worked on a holistic improvement mod for the game that part of it was making the AI REALLY good and there were players who hated that the AI could beat them fairly and somewhat easily.

Lucike did mod the NPC trade scripts of X3R to be more efficient. In test run that did effectively remove trade from the list of player's income sources. Making AI lethal and brutal is thus not technically a problem.

[flywlyx]

But then you also get AI jumping into each other's core sectors and all over the place.

Dev has full control over where AI will jump to. And I am ok either way.

There were variations. In X2 all Xenon did spawn in the sector that had Xenon Shipyard. Then they did "migrate" to their posts (like herd to slaughterhouse).

In X3R, yes, each Xenon sector had at least imaginary shipyard. You were not able to take ownership of sectors nor disable those shipyards, but then again neither did NPC. I don't recall blockading every Gate to Xenon space in X3R; many parts of Galaxy were "expendable" (as they did not make threats stronger). If AI had had jumpdrives, they would have spawned/jumped to space of other factions. That did not happen.

Do you count FAF Rattlesnakes to have jumpdrives, because they "spawn" in FRF space?
The SCA do spawn outside SCA space? They "jump" more than anything in X3 (except RRF and the ATF that spawned into tailpipes of Megalodons during the War).

Dev has full control over where AI will jump, just like they have control over where SCA could spawn.
I actually like SCA's status now, they are like pirates, annoying, unpredictable and you can ignore them once you have a strong fleet.
But Xenon is way too weak, players could actually easily eliminate Xenon doesn't really make sense to me. If it requests certain complex missions like terraform, I would be ok with that, but now, a player only need an Asgard/Erlking/Raptor and some grinding, the Xenon will be gone.

An obvious route is to make the game player-unfriendly. Very unfriendly. That has other "issues".

That is why there should be more options, like jump drive, highway and Xenon strength. I am pretty sure players choosing "hard" mode are not expecting Xenon is still the Tom cat in the current game.

[GCU Grey Area]

But Xenon is way too weak, players could actually easily eliminate Xenon doesn't really make sense to me. If it requests certain complex missions like terraform, I would be ok with that, but now, a player only need an Asgard/Erlking/Raptor and some grinding, the Xenon will be gone.

Think that's absolutely fine myself, even though it's not something I'd find particularly fun (simply can't abide flying ships with low single digit turn rates, no matter how well armed they may be). However if someone else would find it enjoyable to eliminate all Xenon from their game with just a single ship I reckon they should certainly be able to. I'd imagine for someone who enjoys that sort of thing it would be quite a satisfying challenge to complete. Would definitely not be a quick thing to achieve. I'll just stick to my fleets though, that's the way I find the Fight aspect of X4 satisfying to play - heavily modified demolition fleet to take out stations, backed up by a couple of blockade fleets to guard gates into the sector where my demolition fleet is operating.