Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

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Rei Ayanami
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Fri, 18. Mar 22, 18:16

Did it maybe land on stations to be protected?

flywlyx
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by flywlyx » Fri, 18. Mar 22, 18:29

Nanook wrote:
Fri, 18. Mar 22, 18:12
That didn't answer my question, though. Have you had ships damaged or destroyed? What you just posted could be scripted response while the player is OOS.
Yes, I have 2 M auto trader almost killed there.
They have exceptional shield MOD So they survive. But my S scout doesn't have the luck.

The problem is when AI enter the system after the warning, they won't flee. That is almost death sentence.

You could put a satellite around Tidebreak, every tide will kill some AI freights.

Galinet
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Fri, 18. Mar 22, 18:31

Upon further testing my Falcon Sentinel does abort its Explore command to flee to safety. So ship faction nor ship captain faction were the factors, nor the Explore vs Fly and Wait commands.

The required condition seems to be:
  • Player is out of sector
  • Ship is docked at Tidebreak
  • Once the tide is active order the ship to go explore Avarice I
  • Ship gets destroyed traveling from Tidebreak to the superhighway leading to Avarice I
My gut feeling is that the ship does not check the tide status before undocking, which leads to its destruction> Unless there's something special about traveling to the exploration point, such as not being able to do anything else (not threaded nor responding to events/messages). In that case I'd change that command to issue 1) Fly and Wait and 2) Explore. This would reuse the current Fly and Wait code which seems to work correctly.

It remains to be investigated if other movement commands behave similarly:
  • Fly and wait
  • Update trade orders
  • Collect drops
  • Attack targets in range
And whether configuring Repeat Orders while the ship is docked.

Rei Ayanami
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Fri, 18. Mar 22, 21:35

Galinet wrote:
Fri, 18. Mar 22, 18:31
My gut feeling is that the ship does not check the tide status before undocking, which leads to its destruction>
I think the issue here is that, at least as far as I can tell, ships only get notified ONCE to flee, namely when the tide is imminent and the first radio message gets played.
After the initial warning it seems no further flee-commands are given, any ships arriving in the sector or undocking after the first warning go about their day, ignoring any further tide radio warnings.

Galinet
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 00:48

My ship was already in the sector, but docked at a station. It got destroyed trying to reach the next Avarice sector, because I told it to move. If the pilot was in charge they probably would have remained docked until the tide had subsided.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by avilonrayne » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 09:10

The Tide definitely needs some improvements. If the station is broadcasting an alert, surely there would be other things going on warning pilots of the danger. They can broadcast the warning system-wide, and nothing interferes with communications from other sectors during the Tide.

Here's a simple idea to help things along in terms of game mechanics. Add a warning (visible to the player) when the Tide is coming and when the Tide is happening. On the map, add some yellow or red caution lines over the Avarice system before and during the Tide. At the gate to Avarice, make the gate change color to yellow and then red, again for before and during the Tide. If the gate can't have its color changed, add some sort of very visible beacon near the gate. These should be based on the first and final Tide warnings, respectively, and then everything returns to normal when it's all clear.

As for NPCs (be they player-owned or not), I saw another thread talking about ships fleeing too far both from the Tide and from simple combat. The fix is already being worked on for that, so yay. There does need to be something put in place for when NPCs are given orders before or during the Tide, though. Ships approaching the gate to Avarice should not jump through, and ships already docked in Avarice should not undock, while the Tide is coming, with the possibility of players overriding that behavior. With the final warning, ships should make one last attempt to dock at whatever station is closest or jump into Windfall if that gate is closer than any station. After the final warning, no ship, not even player-owned ships, should jump into or undock inside Avarice, until the Tide has cleared. While it would probably be a significant amount of work, the AI behavior for the Tide and the AI behavior for fleeing combat should not be linked at all. They should be two completely separate behaviors. The Tide is not combat, after all!

Nanook
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Nanook » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 18:18

I just checked my scout that survived exploring all three sectors of Avarice and it had a skill level of 3+ stars in both piloting and morale. So perhaps the pilot's level is the difference in surviving or not (among other factors such as the speed of the ship).
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by W_Dragon » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 18:23

I felt the same
We should always have a timmer

flywlyx
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by flywlyx » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 19:25

Nanook wrote:
Sat, 19. Mar 22, 18:18
I just checked my scout that survived exploring all three sectors of Avarice and it had a skill level of 3+ stars in both piloting and morale. So perhaps the pilot's level is the difference in surviving or not (among other factors such as the speed of the ship).
The problem is the warning is not constant.
If AI enter sector after the warning, it won't flee.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by TheDeliveryMan » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 20:28

I actually saw one of my ships waiting just outside of Avaraice until the tide was over before moving in. IIRC, I had ordered it to dock at some station in Avarice. So it might be skill related.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Sat, 19. Mar 22, 22:59

flywlyx wrote:
Sat, 19. Mar 22, 19:25
Nanook wrote:
Sat, 19. Mar 22, 18:18
I just checked my scout that survived exploring all three sectors of Avarice and it had a skill level of 3+ stars in both piloting and morale. So perhaps the pilot's level is the difference in surviving or not (among other factors such as the speed of the ship).
The problem is the warning is not constant.
If AI enter sector after the warning, it won't flee.
Suggestion @ Egosoft :
There should be multiple triggers:
Fist, with every (!) radio signal moment and the moment the tide starts all ships in Avarice who are not already fleeing should get notified to flee.
Then, while the tide is active, every X (2~5?) seconds check all ships in Avarice. Those who are not already fleeing should get notified to flee, to catch cases where ships enter while the tide is active.

Galinet
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 19:28

I created an energy cell station
Spoiler
Show
with a shield generator and 5 "fuel"
in Avarice IV and had a 1 star trader moving energy cells out via Repeat Orders: buy at station and sell at two others, outside of Avarice IV.

I was on board when it docked with my energy cell station in Avarice IV and heard the warning about the incoming tide. Then I heard the captain that we were undocking. I let it, to see what would happen and sure enough she piloted out of the station and started taking shield damage. Luckily I was able to take control before taking hull damage.

So, the ship was docked in Avarice IV when the tide warning was sent but left before the tide was over. Is the problem with the 1 star or the Repeat Orders?

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by alt3rn1ty » Thu, 24. Mar 22, 20:54

Dont know if its doable ..

But how about Amber and Red traffic lights on gates entering Avarice?.
No lights = Enter
Amber = At first radio broadcast
Red = Not advised to enter just now, unless you want to be toast.

Although just thought you can't include warning anyone coming from Leap of Faith into Avarice because its not a gate. Humph!, thats how I got toasted first time, got too far back into Avarice and didn't have time to get to a gate / anomaly / station, I must have come back in just after the warnings.

Anyway, yeah +1 for some kind of solution.
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Rei Ayanami
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 00:28

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Thu, 24. Mar 22, 20:54
But how about Amber and Red traffic lights on gates entering Avarice?.
No lights = Enter
Amber = At first radio broadcast
Red = Not advised to enter just now, unless you want to be toast.
When the Tide is active
Spoiler
Show
the usually blue gate singularity glow for the gate WindFall<->Avarice becomes orange and if you listen closely then you will also hear the noise from the Tide exiting the gate.
Once the Tide is over, the glow becomes blue again and the noise stops.
So if you pay attention to details you can determine whether the Tide is currently active or not before flying through the gate to Avarice, so there is not really a need for the "no lights - red lights" options.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by dcarver » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 06:02

How are you supposed to learn about this tide?
I just got hit with this, lost 3 Manticore ships with no idea why. I guess I haven't progressed though the plot enough.

Reload I see some are waiting outside, and some docked and in FLEE mode. 3 other scrap ships are just going about their business. The one trying to deliver is 2 star, all the docked/flee are 1 star.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 12:16

dcarver wrote:
Fri, 25. Mar 22, 06:02
How are you supposed to learn about this tide?
There are multiple ways, such as entering Avarice for the first time, which should trigger a story mission, which explains it.
Then you can also read the sector description of Avarice and the station descriptions of the Tidebreaker station.
Then you have radio messages being broadcasted in a long interval to let you know about the tide.

Galinet
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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Fri, 25. Mar 22, 13:37

Place satellites in the sectors and watch what the ships are doing. If they are all making a run for the gate then do not enter. Usually they'll gather near the Windfall III and Avarice IV gate, on the Windfall III side. Just wait until they are moving.

Ship captains often stay safe, but not always. If you issue orders they'll often interrupt those orders and get to safety. But some times they will not and will take damage and possibly get destroyed.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Sat, 26. Mar 22, 08:18

Apparently I found another point of failure.

Two ships were safely docket at a station in Avarice IV during a Tide. I saved the game and quit. When I restarted the game those ships were no longer aware of the tide and undocked. Once they started taking damage they decided that it was better to travel halfway across the sector to the gate to Windfall III instead of returning to the safety of the station they had just left, just a few meters away.

I find it odd that none of these problems were detected during internal tests nor on the test server. Is it expected that players will lose ships to the tide since it is a high hazard zone?

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Galinet » Tue, 29. Mar 22, 09:51

I have two ships doing Repeat Orders from Avarice IV to Windfall IV. One was stopped in Windfall IV with a "Wait for Signal" while the other was in Windfall III and just about to use the gate to Avarice IV before I took control and stopped it. To be clear, I was in Argon's wharf and teleported to the ship to stop it; I was not a passenger on board.

I had a trader from a Windfall IV station (not doing repeat orders) in Windfall III also doing "Wait for Signal".

I also had a Manticore "fleeing" in Windfall III; it was gathering scrap in Avarice IV and apparently ran to safety.

And I had a trader on Repeat Orders between Second Contact II and Avarice IV that stopped in Windfall III about halfway to the Avarice IV gate. However by that time I was in the Windfall III sector.

Finally I had a trader in getting repaired in Avarice I. It waited and waited, until it decided to get out in the tide to get destroyed. It was assigned to trade for a station in Avarice IV. I suspect it was about to buy Protectyon although I did not see its orders change.

I really don't understand this tide system. Most of the times the pilots know about the tide and get out of Avarice or do not gate into Avarice from Windfall III. But some times they go in to get destroyed. Some stop in Windfall III but others do not. Why ???

It's getting to the point where I do not want to spend time in those sectors. I'll probably play something else for a while. This is not fun.

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Re: Suggestion TIDES OF AVARICE : Timer?

Post by Jaswolf » Tue, 29. Mar 22, 14:10

We need a precise timer (If a space DJ has this knowledge and broadcast it every now and then, we should have it too)
Make it visible in the Encyclopedia for example, it would be refreshed only when we check it. (no CPU strain added)

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