Help: migrating from megacomplex to small factories

[GReaper]

Hi everyone!

I'm preparing everything in my savegame for the 5.0 update and the new expansion and one of the things I've still pending to do is to migrate my PHQ megacomplex (a lot of storage, production modules, shipyards, etc.) to small factories and wares distribution among them. Before starting this migration, I would like to know if someone has already done this before and has some tips for me.

I know there are other threads related to this topic (I've already read many of them) but maybe someone has some useful tip(s) to start this migration.

Also, I would like to ask you some questions:

- If I have many factories, is there any easy way for me to assign them traders so they get needed resources from my factories and distribute produced ones?

- Is there any way to make a factory to sell any quantity of items to my own stations but only sell those who exceed a concrete threshold to other factions? I mean: I know I can restrict the station through trading rules and I can also manually set a limit to start selling, but I don't know if theres any way to sell only to my properties below one given threshold.

- Last, do you use some kind of "storage & distribution" stations or something like that? In that case, how/why are you using them?


Thank you very much for your time and your help!

[SirConnery]

Hi everyone!
- If I have many factories, is there any easy way for me to assign them traders so they get needed resources from my factories and distribute produced ones?

If you're producing and mining a single thing per factory and your other factories are nearby. Then yes, it works as intended. If you're producing multiple things per factory, or especially mining multiple things. Then no.

- Is there any way to make a factory to sell any quantity of items to my own stations but only sell those who exceed a concrete threshold to other factions? I mean: I know I can restrict the station through trading rules and I can also manually set a limit to start selling, but I don't know if theres any way to sell only to my properties below one given threshold.

Can't do that in one station I'm afraid. The best you could do is
Station 1. Sell what you're producing to your own station.
Station 2. Sell overhead to anyone. Also, you could set a ship here to Repeat orders to your own trade station to sell the overhead there.

- Last, do you use some kind of "storage & distribution" stations or something like that? In that case, how/why are you using them?

I find myself using small ships on repeat orders to set supply routes. Medium ones tend to get destroyed a lot. These tend to be affordable early and mid game too.

I think shipping products to your own trade stations is nice. Trading stations are really hassle free so I usually have a few to sell products. Instead of doing complicated repeat orders sell routes for your products, set a trading station > ship product there > place few ships on station trader > profit.

[flywlyx]

- Last, do you use some kind of "storage & distribution" stations or something like that? In that case, how/why are you using them?

Yeah, several reasons for doing so:
1st, easy money, buying low and selling high is always profitable.
2nd, extend the market for your production stations.
3rd, control the economy of AI factions.

[gorgofdoom]

If I have many factories, is there any easy way for me to assign them traders so they get needed resources from my factories and distribute produced ones?

Yep! use 'distribute wares'.

Is there any way to make a factory to sell any quantity of items to my own stations but only sell those who exceed a concrete threshold to other factions? I mean: I know I can restrict the station through trading rules and I can also manually set a limit to start selling, but I don't know if theres any way to sell only to my properties below one given threshold.

Again, yes! distribute wares delivers to the _nearest_ station first, from where ever it buys. if you place your factories in such a way that all producers are closer to each other than they are to a trade hub, your distributors will prioritize them first, then deliver excess to a far-placed station designed to sell everything it gets at the best available price.

Last, do you use some kind of "storage & distribution" stations or something like that? In that case, how/why are you using them?

The trade station concept is essential to this strategy to assure distributors always have a place to deliver whatever they acquire (and avoid ships still holding materials when all owned consumers are filled). excess will be dropped off to be sold off to the locals either by your owned transports on auto-trade or just allowing the AI to buy them at a lower price.

auto-traders are essential to ensure the best sell price. otherwise you'll be selling at your stations defined price where the AI stations would buy at a higher price.

As for 'small versus big' it really depends on the situation. in sectors that have sufficient workforce it makes sense to build large, efficient complexes that trade as few wares as possible. For sectors with low workforce it is logical to build many small stations due to how workforce is applied to stations.

[Miravlix]

Mega complexes has so many broken elements that I don't see how we can discuss it at all. You either use small factories or you break the game.

Workforce is pr. station, so a megacomplex simply can't gain workers in a sane amount of time.

Mining all Solid and Gas on one station is broken, that can only be fixed by creating dedicated mining stations and then it's no longer a megacomplex.

[GReaper]

Thank you very much for your tips! Today I'll start choosing the sector(s) where I'll put the factories and trading stations and then start designing them in the editor using your feedback. Don't hesitate in providing more tips, I'll be reading them and including your new feedback in my design!

Also, @Miravlix, I've been dealing with megacomplex problems for many years so yes (see viewtopic.php?f=146&t=444421&p=5100708#p5100708 for more info), I'm sure I want to stop it and create a small factories cluster. In fact, many of the threads I've already read before writing this one were related to the "megacomplex vs small factories" topic and I agree with the "small factories" way to go (personal preference).

Once again, thank you very much for your time!

[pref]

Mining all Solid and Gas on one station is broken

Isn't that fixed in 5.0? Think i saw a mining logic related entry in patch notes.
Repeat orders sort of works as long as you don't deplete the area, but would be real nice to see the official method fixed.
Think it's not really working since 3.x though back then miners only failed once some of storage allocated to a resource got full.

Btw is a mining station really worth it? I mean then you have to config 2x the ships, half individually on repeat orders to make it work reliably. Think just assigning 2-3x the miners to a single station also solves the issue and is way less extra clicky.
Resources are the least optimal to move around when volumes are high enough for cargo utilization to matter.

[SirConnery]

Mega complexes has so many broken elements that I don't see how we can discuss it at all. You either use small factories or you break the game.

I tend to agree. Tho I still use medium sized complexes if I can only get by on mining one resource only. Then just use repeat orders to to ship the needed materials out to other factories.

Small factories have bigger up front costs cause you have to buy extra space land, extra docking bay and storage and a few more ships to move the goods around. That's why early game I usually go with medium sized factories.

[GReaper]

I agree with you @SirConnery regarding medium factories. When I started I couldn't afford the upfront costs of the extra storage, docking bays, etc. of small factories. Now my problems is that my PHQ megacomplex a) has many lag issues when near it and b) it's hard to manage storage and docking bays. Otherwise it worked well until now, so I don't regret having built it.

Regarding mining stations, @pref, I use them to mine resources in rich sectors. I use L miners in some sectors (like ice in Getsu Fune) which deliver their resources to local mining stations very fast. Then I use a small fleet of alligators (very fast) to deliver them to the factories (right not, only my PHQ megacomplex). In the new "small factories cluster" model I plan to build an intermediate mining storage near my factories cluster so Alligators can place resources there (instead in the PHQ) and then they will be delivered to local factories from there. I think it will be easier for me to manage this way.

Also, I've got some more questions for you:

- Are factories prices taken into account when buying / selling from own factories? I mean, the money is from the same owner, so it shouldn't change hands. I suppose it's taken into account because I had problems with that when I created my mining station but I would like to confirm.

- What's the best setup to allow my trades freely distribute resources to the local factories? Is "Distribute wares" the only way? Do you recommend me to assign traders to local factories with some specific behaviour & trade rules?

Thank you very much again!

[SirConnery]

- Are factories prices taken into account when buying / selling from own factories? I mean, the money is from the same owner, so it shouldn't change hands. I suppose it's taken into account because I had problems with that when I created my mining station but I would like to confirm.

Yes, it is taken into account. If the buying price in your local factories is a lot lower than market price nearby the traders might see the market price as a better deal and sell there.

But that's actually good since your prices are going to only be low if you already have abundance of the resource in the station. So then they sell the overhead to the market basically.

Prices also effect pilot skill leveling since they only gain rank by profitable trades.

- What's the best setup to allow my trades freely distribute resources to the local factories? Is "Distribute wares" the only way? Do you recommend me to assign traders to local factories with some specific behaviour & trade rules?

Distribute Wares doesn't actually work for your intended purpose, unlike the above poster would like you to believe. In 5.0 they also renamed it to "Fill Shortages". It will buy and sell the wares that you set it for around the whole galaxy. So for a good while it might stay in your factory area, but eventually it will wander around sector to sector.

Traders in local factories works just fine if you have one ware produced per factory. The more wares you produce per factory the more unreliable it gets. And of course if you have other factories further away you'll need to ship wares with Repeat Orders.

[GReaper]

- Are factories prices taken into account when buying / selling from own factories? I mean, the money is from the same owner, so it shouldn't change hands. I suppose it's taken into account because I had problems with that when I created my mining station but I would like to confirm.

Yes, it is taken into account. If the buying price in your local factories is a lot lower than market price nearby the traders might see the market price as a better deal and sell there.

But that's actually good since your prices are going to only be low if you already have abundance of the resource in the station. So then they sell the overhead to the market basically.

Prices also effect pilot skill leveling since they only gain rank by profitable trades.

Very interesting. Didn't know price affect pilot skill leveling! By now I left the default prices and everything seems to start working fine

- What's the best setup to allow my trades freely distribute resources to the local factories? Is "Distribute wares" the only way? Do you recommend me to assign traders to local factories with some specific behaviour & trade rules?

Distribute Wares doesn't actually work for your intended purpose, unlike the above poster would like you to believe. In 5.0 they also renamed it to "Fill Shortages". It will buy and sell the wares that you set it for around the whole galaxy. So for a good while it might stay in your factory area, but eventually it will wander around sector to sector.

Traders in local factories works just fine if you have one ware produced per factory. The more wares you produce per factory the more unreliable it gets. And of course if you have other factories further away you'll need to ship wares with Repeat Orders.

I finished today my first small factories (almost all of them produce 1 ware) and assigned them traders with a trade rule to only trade with my own properties. By now everything seems fine and factories started producing. Let's see how it goes after all cluster is running and some fine tuning!

[KextV8]

Workforce is pr. station, so a megacomplex simply can't gain workers in a sane amount of time.

Workforce isn't needed. Stations produce more than I can use without any workforce at all.

[GReaper]

Workforce is pr. station, so a megacomplex simply can't gain workers in a sane amount of time.

Workforce isn't needed. Stations produce more than I can use without any workforce at all.

That's an interesting point of view, @KextV8. I designed stations to have full workforce. Despite it's true that they'll together will produce a much wares, isn't workforce worth it? I mean: if I produce enough food & med, shouldn't Isn't it worth it to full workforce? Or maybe is better to only full workforce in stations which produce the most expensive goods and a waste in tier 1-2 factories?

[budforceuk]

In my experience getting seperate factories to work together is very difficult.

Although last time I tried it would have been version 3 maybe improvements have been made.

I appreciate megacomplexes cause frame rate issues for some people, but they really are easier to run once built, produce everything from the mined resource up.

[Raevyan]

I did build a whole player economy with 250ish stations in my 3.3 game. I chose the frf sectors as my base of operation and built stations limited to 5 production module each, single product and build them across those sectors.

For distribution I chose to exclusively use distribute ware traders. The point of distribute wares trader was, to move wares more efficiently using less ships. In reality this isn’t that much better than just assigning ships to station and have additional distribute ware traders for high volume products. The problem I encountered with distribute wares was that this command prefers nearest station that needs the ware it trades. So it will always prefer to sell 10 Hull parts to the station in the same sector as opposed to selling the full cargo hold to a station that’s starving in the neighboring sector. I ended up with stations receiving minimal amounts of wares from trades, while other starved and stopped production. I could have solved it by just adding more traders but that was besides the point. So in my opinion best way is to have station traders and in addition add some distribute wares/autotraders for specific wares.

Selling overhead to npc should be possible, if you adjust your prices accordingly. You‘ll basically want a trade station that buys at 1cr below all your other stations. You can then use repeat order to either sell directly from trade station to npc or build to a second trade station and assign traders to second station for selling.

[grapedog]

More than once I've seen in this thread people say that you can't have a station that needs multiple raw resources.

That is totally incorrect. You can have a station that needs all 3 gases and all 3 minerals, and it operates totally fine with assigned miners.

[budforceuk]

More than once I've seen in this thread people say that you can't have a station that needs multiple raw resources.

That is totally incorrect. You can have a station that needs all 3 gases and all 3 minerals, and it operates totally fine with assigned miners.

Yes 100% confirm.

[Raptor34]

More than once I've seen in this thread people say that you can't have a station that needs multiple raw resources.

That is totally incorrect. You can have a station that needs all 3 gases and all 3 minerals, and it operates totally fine with assigned miners.

Did they fix the issue where they fly around with a full cargo bay of stuff you don't need and wouldn't unload regardless? If not then it's not totally fine.

[GCU Grey Area]

Did they fix the issue where they fly around with a full cargo bay of stuff you don't need and wouldn't unload regardless?

Does seem to have been fixed. Started a new game recently & ended up building my usual HQ mega-complex (can't help myself, know it's horrendously inefficient, just find it irresistible from an aesthetic/architectural perspective). Needs multiple minerals & gases. So far no issues with miners being unable to offload cargo & henceforth being unable to mine a full cargo of something else.

[GReaper]

I did build a whole player economy with 250ish stations in my 3.3 game. I chose the frf sectors as my base of operation and built stations limited to 5 production module each, single product and build them across those sectors.

For distribution I chose to exclusively use distribute ware traders. The point of distribute wares trader was, to move wares more efficiently using less ships. In reality this isn’t that much better than just assigning ships to station and have additional distribute ware traders for high volume products. The problem I encountered with distribute wares was that this command prefers nearest station that needs the ware it trades. So it will always prefer to sell 10 Hull parts to the station in the same sector as opposed to selling the full cargo hold to a station that’s starving in the neighboring sector. I ended up with stations receiving minimal amounts of wares from trades, while other starved and stopped production. I could have solved it by just adding more traders but that was besides the point. So in my opinion best way is to have station traders and in addition add some distribute wares/autotraders for specific wares.

Selling overhead to npc should be possible, if you adjust your prices accordingly. You‘ll basically want a trade station that buys at 1cr below all your other stations. You can then use repeat order to either sell directly from trade station to npc or build to a second trade station and assign traders to second station for selling.

Thank you very much for your feedback, @rene6740. By now I'll stick with station traders and a few (maybe S type) traders with distribute wares!

More than once I've seen in this thread people say that you can't have a station that needs multiple raw resources.

That is totally incorrect. You can have a station that needs all 3 gases and all 3 minerals, and it operates totally fine with assigned miners.

I agree with you, @grapedog. In fact, for any person who reads this post, I would like to remark that I'm migrating from my PHQ megacomplex because a) lag issues (main problem), b) docking problems and c) it became "too big" for me. BUT I've been playing for years with this megacomplex which used all raw resources and hadn't much problems. It was running fine an producing a lot of wares with very few micromanagement.

Furthermore, I'd like to try new approaches like the small factories cluster and optimize the PHQ for other tasks like terraforming and keep it visually simple (personal preference).