Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

[Techedge]

Perhaps we should also be allowed to do targeted modding, but with the costs calculated from the odds. Like if for a 1-100% range you'll on average get a 100% once every hundred rerolls, then let us pay the cost directly instead of mashing the button. And yes, that means paying for all those hundred rerolls, but with only one click this time.
That way you can either play the roulette for a lower cost or pay the lump sum for the guarantee.

Like this idea best of everything in the thread so far. Keep existing mod system as it is, but add a 'throw money at the problem' button which guarantees a perfect mod but costs an absolute fortune & eats a mountain of resources for the convenience.

The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.

[GCU Grey Area]

The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.

Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.

[alt3rn1ty]

Oh yes please ..

The amount of times I have wished all my weapons, and engines on ships of the same type (for Patrols etcetera) were the same speed, but its just about impossible to get them all synced if using in game modifications so I tend not to use the modifications if I want them all performing the same.

Also plus 1 for reducing the amount of High Energy Catalysts required by re-rolls mentioned earlier, getting them is a PITA and they are mostly wasted on re-rolls.

[Techedge]

The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.

Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.

Oh, I understand your point, but I don't share it.
And that's fine, as we all have our own style of play and none can be really considered "right".

[gorgofdoom]

Ehh.....

I have more problems with the mod system than just this. Current rendition requires about 200 clicks to get an M ship into a sufficiently modded state. Not to mention modding a raptor at around 3000 clicks.... this system is so punishing to my mouse i've set up an auto-clicker just to handle this stuff.

So i will make a more broad suggestion:

1) A 'ship modifier' role for an NPC that is based on said NPC's engineering skill would determine the quality of installed mods at our own shipyard. At NPC yards it should still be RNG based, as we cannot control who installs the mods. the main benefit being that all the mods installed will be consistent, barring the NPC gaining skill.

2) Mod templates, please! once a template is applied this NPC could search for ships with unapplied templates consisting of available resources & generate an order for them to be applied when the ships current assignment is completed.

[Raptor34]

Why not introduce a separate improvement research system instead?
I mean, I don't think it was intended for you to mod all your ships rather than your personal ones so they are more personalized.
Keep the mod system as is with QoL improvements so you can click less, and have a research system so you can upgrade ships but with corresponding higher costs. Like you're building your own higher quality ships. And while research would make use of drop components, the upgrades themselves would use regular goods.
Perhaps even link it to the terraforming system, and make it cost quite a lot because you are building better stuff than the races. Then it could be a late game resource sink.

Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?

[TKz]

Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?

I agree, game is already way too easy once you have a few factories. If you can then have ALL your ships moded and the factions cannot, it feels like a cheat code
I only use mods on a very few personal ships, that become absolutely OP in player hands (you can clear 3 I, ~10 K and hundreds of N/M/P in a single sector in a few minutes with only a moded Rattlesnake).
That's why I don't like solutions like "mods only gives the highest possible roll" that would basically be a "I WIN BUTTON" after only a few hours of gameplay.

[Pares]

The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.

Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.

Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.

[Pares]

Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?

I agree, game is already way too easy once you have a few factories. If you can then have ALL your ships moded and the factions cannot, it feels like a cheat code

There are definitely modded NPC ships flying around, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[GCU Grey Area]

Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.

That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.

[Alan Phipps]

[Sorry GCU, I couldn't resist!]

... Captain, we have successfully overclocked the ship's combat computer and we are getting great processing speeds now! ... Yes, Captain, that is indeed great news but I wouldn't roll the mod out across the fleet just yet. ... You see the combat computer now only works for 5 seconds before it overheats and needs to be cooled down for a few minutes. ... Yes Captain, I'll get the mod removed - you can take the modding cost out of my pay.

[abisha1980]

Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.

That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.

that's because it will brake QM if it do but that do not take away that all based on equal distribution.
if intel produce a batch of chips some are better then others, others are worse then standard but the batch amount will always have the same distribution.

if you install a water cooler on your CPU you can overclock it better simple fact same go's with modding a spaceship equipment, car, CPU, GPU etc, etc

[GCU Grey Area]

[Sorry GCU, I couldn't resist!]

... Captain, we have successfully overclocked the ship's combat computer and we are getting great processing speeds now! ... Yes, Captain, that is indeed great news but I wouldn't roll the mod out across the fleet just yet. ... You see the combat computer now only works for 5 seconds before it overheats and needs to be cooled down for a few minutes. ... Yes Captain, I'll get the mod removed - you can take the modding cost out of my pay.

Kind of my point - sounds to me just the sort of thing you might get if you salvaged the cooling systems from several bullet-ridden, burnt out wrecks. First few you try might turn out to be just a little bit leaky & provide sub-optimal results.

[Pares]

Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.

That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.

It's not my opinion, this is how it works in the game. You press the button and get random result each time with no regards to the previous iteration. Not sure how does that relate to PC overclocking more than gambling machines. Higher frequency -> higher performance (+) - higher heat generation (-) and higher instability (-), these things are in direct relationship. I don't see the "push button for random result" in this at all, but whatever.

[GCU Grey Area]

Not sure how does that relate to PC overclocking more than gambling machines.

It's an analogy. A real world situation where pushing something beyond the specifications at which it was designed to run has unpredictable results.

[flywlyx]

It's an analogy. A real world situation where pushing something beyond the specifications at which it was designed to run has unpredictable results.

You always can reverse to last set up IRL.

[GCU Grey Area]

You always can reverse to last set up IRL.

Yeah, that part isn't analogous. Unlike overclocking a PC, ship mod disassembly in X4 is a destructive process where some of the parts are destroyed. Consequently no way to revert - most of the High Energy Catalyst used in one attempt to mod a gun is from a different batch to that used in the next attempt. Maybe think of it as overclocking a PC where the motherboard (analogous here to the main modding component) is always retained but most of the other parts (HEC etc) are discarded if they don't provide a satisfactory result.

[flywlyx]

Yeah, that part isn't analogous. Unlike overclocking a PC, ship mod disassembly in X4 is a destructive process where some of the parts are destroyed. Consequently no way to revert - most of the High Energy Catalyst used in one attempt to mod a gun is from a different batch to that used in the next attempt. Maybe think of it as overclocking a PC where the motherboard (analogous here to the main modding component) is always retained but most of the other parts (HEC etc) are discarded if they don't provide a satisfactory result.

Then it is obviously more efficient to keep the previous set and modify a new set. It is pointless to destroy the old set since the result is unpredictable and current set might be the best set in history.

[Raptor34]

Yeah, that part isn't analogous. Unlike overclocking a PC, ship mod disassembly in X4 is a destructive process where some of the parts are destroyed. Consequently no way to revert - most of the High Energy Catalyst used in one attempt to mod a gun is from a different batch to that used in the next attempt. Maybe think of it as overclocking a PC where the motherboard (analogous here to the main modding component) is always retained but most of the other parts (HEC etc) are discarded if they don't provide a satisfactory result.

Then it is obviously more efficient to keep the previous set and modify a new set. It is pointless to destroy the old set since the result is unpredictable and current set might be the best set in history.

One of the downsides of the new equipment system. Sure they have logistics advantages when it comes to manufacturing, which is actually worth more to me tbh, but under the old system you could in theory just store your modded guns somewhere if they are good but not optimal.
That and easier to move gear around.
Huh, might actually be a good thing to add to the upcoming pirate DLC actually.

[TKz]

There are definitely modded NPC ships flying around, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I checked ALL ships in Second Contact (war between TRI and ARG/ANT), and there are a lot. Not a single one had a modification, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Even if factions can mod their ships, they don't use it, and if we can mod all our ships in a centralized manner / with a blueprint, it will be a big problem balance wise.