Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

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Ragnos28
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Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:02

Hello everybody,

In this clip I test the performance of 0-1 stars pilots vs 5 stars pilots, combat scenario, direct atack orders against a xenon defence station, the "softest" of the xenon stations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQqWfYNQkQU

Conclusion...5 stars perform better but, giving the end results, not by much.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:16

Comparing 1-star vs 5-star in X4 is like comparing consitently r_tarded person with mildly r_tarded person.


Overall, why even bother with pilot level in the first place? I takes ages to train them (or a lot of money with terraforming > academy) but then, what do to with them?

Put them on Fighters? Nope, die too easy...and it's pain in the ass having to manually re-assign 100 pilots one-by-freaking-one.
Put them on Corvettes/Frigates? Nope, die too easy as well.
Put them on Destroyers? Nope, die too easy when facing defence station.
Put them on XL? Yes...but they still manouver like r_etarded elephant...the only difference is that usually they have enough hard skin to flee from their stupidity and they are big enough to be noticed by player.



Seriously the whole pilot logic should be remade to have 4/5 star pilots actually worthwhile.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:30

The thing is, if I apply GCU method of manual positioning of destroyers around the station, it is posible that the 0-1 stars could handle the station, but there is no way I see myself putting up with that level of micro-management, even if it is just for a test...and that is coming from someone that rearm 100 Chimeras, one by one, from time to time :lol:

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:06

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:30
The thing is, if I apply GCU method of manual positioning of destroyers around the station, it is posible that the 0-1 stars could handle the station, but there is no way I see myself putting up with that level of micro-management, even if it is just for a test...and that is coming from someone that rearm 100 Chimeras, one by one, from time to time :lol:
That made me chuckle - your Chimera rearmament is just the sort of micro-management I do my best to avoid. Hence why my bombers invariably use heavy missiles (rather than torps), my carriers & auxiliaries always use the universal build method (even when playing as a Terran), & each carrier only has max of around 15-20 bombers, rest of them are entirely gun armed interceptors. I can just about cope with that level of bomber micro-management, but wouldn't touch your 100 Chimeras with a 10ft barge pole. What you go through to rearm those ships... Compared to that sticking a fly to order in each destroyer's queue, then arranging them neatly into a firing line on the map seems an utterly trivial task, at least as far as I'm concerned.

af_2017
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by af_2017 » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:20

Let's consider it from the point : "Let's leave the player a chance".
Because if 5 star pilots will be perfect, we all know how good npcs can perform:
- they make no mistakes
- they take decisions fast
- they do not need to press buttons
- they can see everything at once
With all these the player will have no chance.
Asking for better pilots will bring better pilots to all factions, that includes enemies also.
Not sure if I would like being perfectly and beautiful killed by npcs. I still want to have a chance to make some combats and win.
Nah, thanks, I'd rather stay a king in a world of retards.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:35

af_2017 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:20
Let's consider it from the point : "Let's leave the player a chance".
Because if 5 star pilots will be perfect, we all know how good npcs can perform:
Given how X4 works, there is no chance in hell the AI could be better than player.
What we ask, is for 5-star AI to not be intelectually challenged amoeba that need to be constantly babysit.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 17:15

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:06
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:30
The thing is, if I apply GCU method of manual positioning of destroyers around the station, it is posible that the 0-1 stars could handle the station, but there is no way I see myself putting up with that level of micro-management, even if it is just for a test...and that is coming from someone that rearm 100 Chimeras, one by one, from time to time :lol:
That made me chuckle - your Chimera rearmament is just the sort of micro-management I do my best to avoid. Hence why my bombers invariably use heavy missiles (rather than torps), my carriers & auxiliaries always use the universal build method (even when playing as a Terran), & each carrier only has max of around 15-20 bombers, rest of them are entirely gun armed interceptors. I can just about cope with that level of bomber micro-management, but wouldn't touch your 100 Chimeras with a 10ft barge pole. What you go through to rearm those ships... Compared to that sticking a fly to order in each destroyer's queue, then arranging them neatly into a firing line on the map seems an utterly trivial task, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah...I think for me is easier to cope with the micro-management of Chimera rearmament, because is not some faulty AI at work, we simply don't have this quality of life, UI option (why Egosoft, whyyy? :rant: ) to mass equipped ships with a saved configuration just like we can order a gazillion ships at the shipyard, with a saved profile configuration. And the anoying thing about the destroyers pilots AI is that, sometimes it is flawless, the ship take position in a line at the right distance and you are quick to take pictures, record and go....look look, this...give this, mine, mine :roll: and in the next instance...zdrang, boom...whyyyy? :rant: ..the same ships, the same pilots whyyy? :mrgreen:

Ahh finally...someone who has universal build method and use bombers :roll: I'm courios, how many bombers you cand rearm with what is in the cargo bay of the Raptor? :? I'm asking this because, if prefered building method is terran, the cargo of the Raptor is enough to rearm a hoping number of....3 Bombers :doh: and the resources required for torpedoes is computronic substrate that the Raptor can only carry 39 :(

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 17:28

af_2017 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:20
Let's consider it from the point : "Let's leave the player a chance".
Because if 5 star pilots will be perfect, we all know how good npcs can perform:
- they make no mistakes
- they take decisions fast
- they do not need to press buttons
- they can see everything at once
With all these the player will have no chance.
Asking for better pilots will bring better pilots to all factions, that includes enemies also.
Not sure if I would like being perfectly and beautiful killed by npcs. I still want to have a chance to make some combats and win.
Nah, thanks, I'd rather stay a king in a world of retards.
You know, the only thing I really want from my 5 stars captains is for my artillery not to "hug" fortifications. Would I, the player, be affected by the fact that AI destroyers keep their distance? Not really, because if the AI have working artillery, I would just send my own artillery or fighters squadrons. And the main battery is not some sniper weapon that can blow me up when I'm in my starting fighter (hehe, I just have some flashback from X3TC when passing near a hostile destroyer was a really fast Game Over screen, when flying your starter fighter :lol: )

dmk
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by dmk » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:01

af_2017 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:20
With all these the player will have no chance.
that's correctly only if
af_2017 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 15:20
- they make no mistakes
implying of General Artificial Intelligence, which they would not have anyway,
so they would still bound to some script logic, and player would figure that and find holes in that logic, and win.
so player will have a chance even against most perfect npc crews,
but i think that only really few npc should have five stars, and after that change they(enemy npcs) become no problem at all, especially if non laser L turrets projectiles became slower, i.e. allows player to react to it, not only superhuman ai reaction for evasion.

af_2017
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by af_2017 » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:40

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 14:02
Conclusion...5 stars perform better but, giving the end results, not by much.
Sometimes if tests of different things give you same result could mean that the tests performed in not very correct area.
That is, your video does prove that the pilots do not differ actually in siege of Xenon defense platform using these ships.

There's a video about pilot skills in x4, first 5 minutes are about "obvious" things which we can find out from user interface of the game; the rest is more interesting since it covers not obvious areas: https://youtu.be/nSsAAtj0Zz0?t=348
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

jlehtone
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 16:45

af_2017 wrote:
Tue, 18. Jan 22, 15:40
Sometimes if tests of different things give you same result could mean that the tests performed in not very correct area.
That is, your video does prove that the pilots do not differ actually in siege of Xenon defense platform using these ships.
You mean that one cannot use blanket statements: "5* is clearly better than 1*" and "5* is no different from 1*".

However, if one is interested in station siege and skill has no practical effect on that task, then that is so. You just need to know that sending anything but rookies into siege is waste of pilots, whose skill could actually make a difference in some other assignment.
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Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Let's give the rookies a chance, shall we?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 18. Jan 22, 19:18

Yes, I was curious if 5 stars pilots could make destroyers a "fire and forget" weapon against fortifications. The answer is no. On ocasion, that 5 star pilot, the very best the game can offer, will take that 100kk, with purple mods, destroyer and slam it in to the station gravitron turetts of the xenon station.
So lately, I have been using a combined approach, I send the destroyers with direct atack orders, w8 for them to start taking turett fire (and they will take it, 5 stars or not) and snipe the offending turett with the batteries of the Asgard (not only with the Asgard, every personal flown destroyer could do it).
In the case of xenon SPP, the destroyers with 5 star pilots sit out, and I do mean out, as in fly to a position away from the station, because if they are "defending" me, they will engage the station and die from the turetts even if my ship does not take fire from the station.
Now I'm zen about the whole thing, like in I a quote attributed to Dalai Lama that says "If a problem is fixable, if a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it's not fixable, then there is no help in worrying. There is no benefit in worrying whatsoever", because now I know what works and what does not work.

So for my particular situation, blasting stations, 5 stars pilots don't do much for me.

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