Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

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mr.WHO
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Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by mr.WHO » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 20:53

Well not a big suprise, given that heat sink is assigned to the weapon, instead of to the ship, but a little naive part of me was wondering if maybe there is some positive suprise.


Gladius: armed with 4 x mk.1 Plasma Cannons.
Eclipse: armed with 4 x mk.1 Plasma Cannons.

Both overheat after 3 shots.


Turrets doesn't matter as they do not generate heat at all.

Then, there are Terran high-powered weapons, that have heat capacity technically only marginally better, but practically there is no meaningful difference:
Terran Pulse vs normal Pulse - doesn't matter as your fingers on a trigger will get hurt faster than the weapon overheat.
Terran Proton vs Bolt - doesn't matter as well, you only overheat if you fire with long and constant barrages.
Terran Meson vs Boson Lance - both crappy overheat after 1 shot, but Meson doing actually useful dammage...if you hit something with non-existing gimbal.

Pretty much the only noticable advantage is Destroyer battery and that's all (I don't mention XL Laser as it's one-a-kind weapon)

Medium turrets are carbon copy of Argon turrets, minus tracknig speed.
Large turrets only tiny marginally better than their commonwealth analogs.
Not to mention how crappy Terrans are with missiles (Egosoft forgot to add missiles to most of Terran ships and turret mount in a first place, <sight>) not even having Torpedos.


Terran weapon superiority is basically a joke.

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 21:25

I understand the points you are making but where are you quoting from about the Terran ships as stated in the thread title?
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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by xant » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 21:32

Alan Phipps wrote:
Wed, 12. Jan 22, 21:25
I understand the points you are making but where are you quoting from about the Terran ships as stated in the thread title?
It is a quote from Bernd when he did an AMA on reddit after CoH was announced. August 2020, the exact quote is:

"The balancing of the terran ships and their weapons is by far not done yet but there is a chance that their weapons are not fully compatible with other races. The idea with many of their new ships is that they can dissipate heat better than all other ships (thanks to their larger surface area in cool wings) and their weapons take special advantage of this fact. But this is not set in stone yet, so do not take my word for it."

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Imperial Good » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 22:26

Heat dissipation should refer to their ability to cooldown rather than absorb heat. As such going from red heat to no heat should be faster, assuming they followed through on that idea.

High Energy weapons generally seem to have better stats than their counterparts, which is why they are limited to Terran ships and Terran ships have fewer gun slots (which means better cooling).

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 13. Jan 22, 08:11

Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 12. Jan 22, 22:26
Heat dissipation should refer to their ability to cooldown rather than absorb heat. As such going from red heat to no heat should be faster, assuming they followed through on that idea.

High Energy weapons generally seem to have better stats than their counterparts, which is why they are limited to Terran ships and Terran ships have fewer gun slots (which means better cooling).
The idea would be cool and unique...if actually implemented.

That's why I compared Gladius with Eclipse havign exactly the same weapons - there is absolutely no difference.

In reality, heat dissipation is the same for every ship and every weapon, the only difference is that each weapon has different "max heat capacity" and heat build-up per shot.
Terran Pulse and Proton seems to have ~100MJ more heat capacity than commonwealth alternatives, bus as I wrote in OP, for these weapons it doesn't matter at all to be noticable difference.


It's really frustrating that Egosoft has all these cool ideas, but then decide to commit by only like 30% and stop (e.g. Large turrets rebalance, but forgetting that medium turrets and missiels exist, or leaving many ship stats as copy/paste).

Seriously, if Egosoft would actually commit to finish the rough edges X4 would 9/10 material, isntead of 7/10.

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Kajar » Fri, 14. Jan 22, 13:49

The problem with that idea is that heat is completely handled weaponside and ships have nothing to do with it, other than number of weapon slots. With how the game works, i don't see a way to make it happen.
Proton Barrage and Meson Stream being terran only could be seen as the result of the idea since only terran ships can use those weapons.
Terran weapons tend to be somewhat better actually, they have quite the dps advantage over commonwealth weapons, as much as 25% in some cases.

Still, i would like to see a big combat overhaul as there are quite a few balance issues with a number of weapons very underperforming compared to others of the same price class.

As for the heat mechanic itself:
Every weapon has a max heat value of 10000. If the heat level goes above that, the weapons overheat.
Heat generated is a flat value per bullet fired. 5122 for S Plasma mk1 for example. Allowing you two shots until overheat.
S Pulse Mk1 53 per shot
S Ter Pule Mk1 145 per shot.
The value in the encyclopedia is roughly the heat per second. Similar how the damage values are damage per second.
Cool down rate for most weapons is 2000 per second and a delay after firing is usually 1.13 seconds.
Cool down rate is halved for each extra weapon with heat.

I hope that clears that bit up a little.

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 14. Jan 22, 15:12

Alternatively, it would be simplier to just add another modifier to ship hull, like:
"Heat dissipation speed" +100 MJ
"Heat capacity" + 100MJ


This would probably be more savegame compactibility friendly and would make different ships feel and perform even better, Like:
Terran being best at heat dissipation, while Teladi sux the most.
While Split would be the best at max heat capacity (lots of metal to heat up, plus it would work nicely with their high RoF weapons having longer burst, but then longer wait if you overheat).

The imagination is a limit.

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Zalzany » Sat, 15. Jan 22, 21:11

Biggest problem with this is "is not set in stone" it was a novel idea that never ever made it to final production. Its like googling stuff from any game dev team adn going "see here look 3 years ago they said they would like to see this thing! Where is this thing I was lied to!" Its like um they didn't say anything it was one of the things they wanted to see and got cut before it was released. I mean I would to see tons of stuff in few projects I started in real life, but I learn very quickly some things don't make it to final product at all. Wether its me fixing something around house and I got settle for not adding things I wanted or instead of replacing something with something much better, being frugal and replacing it with something that just works.

Same thing with devs I see all the time some gets excited says things they want to push, but won't ever gaurntee they even put out disclaimers out for all of it, but people don't read whole sentance. Just when people google years later they go "hey how come 6 months before this was released they said this thing that didn't make it to final version!" its like um it was a test version, and they couldn't get it to work right...

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Falcrack » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 07:02

I prefered the way X3 handled weapons, with them being limited by power generation, rather than the somewhat half baked overheating mechanic in X4.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 12:24

I just hope that X-22, grant that Egosoft received is for new X4 stand alone game (like X3 AP is stand alone to X3).

Current X4 + DLC savegame compactibility really hold the game back and prevent making if use it full potential :(

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by Rei Ayanami » Sun, 16. Jan 22, 18:58

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 16. Jan 22, 12:24
Current X4 + DLC savegame compactibility really hold the game back and prevent making if use it full potential :(
Not really, i'm sure this could be patched in and have the savegame loader fill in the missing/outdated data (such as a possible new heat disspiation parameter for ships) if the savegame is older than the patched game version.
Even if entirely new savegame format was needed, it could still be resolved with a patch that is able to load and convert older savegame formats, ditching outdated data fields and filling in defaults for missing new data fields.

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Re: Terran ships better at heat dissipation - basically a Bullsh*t

Post by jlehtone » Mon, 17. Jan 22, 19:26

Paranid capitals in 5.0. Shall they not be new ships? On upgrade the existing ships from save will remain but the Shipyards will replace blueprints, and thus after upgrade only new version of ships can be built. That is one way to make "new stats" available.

However,
aversin wrote:
Fri, 14. Jan 22, 13:49
The problem with that idea is that heat is completely handled weaponside and ships have nothing to do with it, other than number of weapon slots. With how the game works, i don't see a way to make it happen.
if true, ships can't save the day.
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