Idiots

[Pares]

...

Is X4 realistic? No. Should the game be believable? Yes. Is it believable, that powerful warships costing millions of credits are commanded by utterly incompetent morons who can't execute even the simplest commands? No. Should the game be fun? Yes. Is Space Idiocracy simulation fun? No.

Stop comparing X4 to real life. People play games to escape real life. The decision to dumb down the AI decision making for the sake of this frustrating, grindy, tedious half-baked skill system was incredibly stupid. Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to make their already barely capable AI even worse?! The lack of tools to manage and train pilots effectively makes the whole thing even worse. It's a huge mistake Egosoft has to learn from. And if they want to implement an experience/skill progression system, there are plenty good and working examples as to how to do it right. Hint: not by shooting your AI algorithms in the leg.

Honestly (here I go again) what I personally would like to see instead of the current completetly black box implementation is a clearly communicated and simple trait based system. After a few battles a pilot might gain the "Battle-hardened" trait which gives the piloted ship +X% HP. After a few trading runs a pilot might gain the "Well connected" trait making all his/her trades +X% more profitable. A captain piloting a builder ship could gain the "Master builder" trait accelerating station build speed by +X%. You get the basic idea. Would it be realistic? Maybe not in every case, no. Is ship HP realistic? No. Is it still in the game for gameplay reasons? Yes.

There would be not star ratings so commands would be unlocked by purchasable, researchable, plot reward or lootable software.

I have to say the fact that they didn't touch the most complained about mechanic in the game in any meaningful way since release doesn't make me very hopeful about Egosoft's viewpoint on the issue. But then again they did update the Paranid ships, so...

[builder680]

@Ragnos28

You should dub highway to the danger zone over those clips LOL

[GCU Grey Area]

These are 5 star pilots using "coordinate attack": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O9Q5dXb77s&t=251s
These are other clips were I made a point in showing the pilots skills before engagement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMJTqHbJnAY&t=1380s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQQrinUcvvk&t=508s
Same ships, same pilots.

You need to give them better orders. A vague order to attack that thing over there is not enough. They work much better if you give them clear orders, including where you want them to attack from. That's where the difference between fully trained destroyer captains & 0* Piloting/0* Morale captains becomes readily apparent. Still need to keep an eye on them & be ready to order ships back into the firing line if they become a bit too enthusiastic (particularly against non-Xenon stations, where the margin for error is much lower), however with properly trained captains this becomes the exception rather than the rule.

[Ragnos28]

@Ragnos28

You should dub highway to the danger zone over those clips LOL

Yeap...must be that morale thing Zalzany was talking about

[Ragnos28]

These are 5 star pilots using "coordinate attack": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O9Q5dXb77s&t=251s
These are other clips were I made a point in showing the pilots skills before engagement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMJTqHbJnAY&t=1380s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQQrinUcvvk&t=508s
Same ships, same pilots.

You need to give them better orders. A vague order to attack that thing over there is not enough. They work much better if you give them clear orders, including where you want them to attack from. That's where the difference between fully trained destroyer captains & 0* Piloting/0* Morale captains becomes readily apparent. Still need to keep an eye on them & be ready to order ships back into the firing line if they become a bit too enthusiastic (particularly against non-Xenon stations, where the margin for error is much lower), however with properly trained captains this becomes the exception rather than the rule.

@GCU, my dude, I gave 5 star pilots the best posible option for them..."coordinate attack".
"They work much better if you give them clear orders, including where you want them to attack from"...it is irelevent from where they will atack, because they will rarely keep their distance. Because artillery, in X4, NEED to hug targets for some reason.
"Still need to keep an eye on them" by that you mean, by any chance, the "flee" command that is interpreted, by 5 stars pilots as well, as use thrusters that drain shields and go as fast as you can towards the graviton turret that fire at them?

I have a test for you, take your destroyers with 5 stars captains and order them, with "coordinate attack" or not, to atack a xenon SPP and make a clip of it, to test that exception rather than the rule thing.

Coincidentally, I'm in a process of making a clip in which I go to a xenon defence station, save, fire my 5 stars destroyer captains, go to a station and hire 1 star pilots put them in charge and order them to atack. After, I give the same atack orders to 5 stars captains, to see the outcome.

[Ragnos28]

@GCU
Check this out, fresh from the "oven": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJCRVXfNoA4

I'm above the station, my destroyers as well...and this happen.

[GCU Grey Area]

@GCU, my dude, I gave 5 star pilots the best posible option for them..."coordinate attack".

You're kidding right? Coordinate attack is far from the best possible option. By far the worst option if there are any non-combatants in the fleet (e.g. unarmed M freighters full of missile parts), since it doesn't respect assigned roles & launched/docked status. Recommend avoid at all costs. Tried it again recently & it's still dreadful.

"They work much better if you give them clear orders, including where you want them to attack from"...it is irelevent from where they will atack, because they will rarely keep their distance. Because artillery, in X4, NEED to hug targets for some reason.

For the most part mine DO keep their distance. By far the most common time my destroyers take fire is if I mess up their reposition orders (when it's time to send them round to the far side of a station) & inadvertently give them a flight path which takes them a bit too close to intact turrets (safest to use 2 fly to's in such situations, but sometimes I'm lazy).

"Still need to keep an eye on them" by that you mean, by any chance, the "flee" command that is interpreted, by 5 stars pilots as well, as use thrusters that drain shields and go as fast as you can towards the graviton turret that fire at them?

Nope, avoid letting your destroyers go into panic mode (a.k.a. Flee) at all costs - sometimes they don't exactly pick an ideal route to get them out of danger. As I said, keep an eye on them & as soon as you notice any of them taking fire give them a fly to order to get them out of there. Just make sure you do that BEFORE Flee kicks in. Best to avoid a full 180° turn though, it's a slow manoeuvre & may expose engines to enemy fire.

I have a test for you, take your destroyers with 5 stars captains and order them, with "coordinate attack" or not, to atack a xenon SPP and make a clip of it, to test that exception rather than the rule thing.

Have done that many, many times. No idea how to make a clip of it though & don't have any video making software. Best I can do is screenshots - here's are a bunch of well behaved destroyers bombarding a Xenon SPP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/np9y0hwbq0crc ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Coincidentally, I'm in a process of making a clip in which I go to a xenon defence station, save, fire my 5 stars destroyer captains, go to a station and hire 1 star pilots put them in charge and order them to atack. After, I give the same atack orders to 5 stars captains, to see the outcome.

Suggest setting them up in a firing line at around 10km from the target before the attack orders.

[builder680]

@GCU

The point here is that these are 5-star captains who have to be hand-held (seriously, look at the multiple paragraphs you wrote describing how to properly attack a stationary target when YOU have the range advantage) to use said range advantage against a stationary target. This is OBVIOUS stuff. Whether or not someone agrees that ships SHOULD have a range advantage is irrelevant, the fact is that they DO. At 5 stars you should not have to babysit to make sure your ships use their range advantage. This is what I mean when I say the skill system only results in the culmination of "questionably adequate" behavior at 5 stars. Before this, they're even DUMBER. And that's just one type of behavior on a certain kind of ship against a certain kind of target. The AI goes out of its way to behave in the most moronic fashion possible in every conceivable scenario, sometimes even at 5 stars. IMO it simply shouldn't be like this. Kneecapping an already stupid AI, along its entire real-life weeks-long journey to "max" performance is not the way to create a "skill" progression system.

[flywlyx]

Stop comparing X4 to real life. People play games to escape real life. The decision to dumb down the AI decision making for the sake of this frustrating, grindy, tedious half-baked skill system was incredibly stupid. Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to make their already barely capable AI even worse?! The lack of tools to manage and train pilots effectively makes the whole thing even worse. It's a huge mistake Egosoft has to learn from. And if they want to implement an experience/skill progression system, there are plenty good and working examples as to how to do it right. Hint: not by shooting your AI algorithms in the leg.

Honestly (here I go again) what I personally would like to see instead of the current completetly black box implementation is a clearly communicated and simple trait based system. After a few battles a pilot might gain the "Battle-hardened" trait which gives the piloted ship +X% HP. After a few trading runs a pilot might gain the "Well connected" trait making all his/her trades +X% more profitable. A captain piloting a builder ship could gain the "Master builder" trait accelerating station build speed by +X%. You get the basic idea. Would it be realistic? Maybe not in every case, no. Is ship HP realistic? No. Is it still in the game for gameplay reasons? Yes.

There would be not star ratings so commands would be unlocked by purchasable, researchable, plot reward or lootable software.

I have to say the fact that they didn't touch the most complained about mechanic in the game in any meaningful way since release doesn't make me very hopeful about Egosoft's viewpoint on the issue. But then again they did update the Paranid ships, so...

Yeah, I think most players are only looking for a simple RTS system like Homeworld(1998), and tons of priority lists to make their own AI.
Ego misunderstands what a good game should be nowadays. Basically, everybody wants configurable AI now. And they are still trying to do everything for players.
And they make a really bad excuse for these disabilities, "human-alike"?
It really feels like an insult sometimes. I can't stop thinking how bad Ego's Dev team driving their cars.

[GCU Grey Area]

@GCU

The point here is that these are 5-star captains who have to be hand-held (seriously, look at the multiple paragraphs you wrote describing how to properly attack a stationary target when YOU have the range advantage) to use said range advantage against a stationary target. This is OBVIOUS stuff. Whether or not someone agrees that ships SHOULD have a range advantage is irrelevant, the fact is that they DO. At 5 stars you should not have to babysit to make sure your ships use their range advantage. This is what I mean when I say the skill system only results in the culmination of "questionably adequate" behavior at 5 stars. Before this, they're even DUMBER. And that's just one type of behavior on a certain kind of ship against a certain kind of target. The AI goes out of its way to behave in the most moronic fashion possible in every conceivable scenario, sometimes even at 5 stars. IMO it simply shouldn't be like this. Kneecapping an already stupid AI, along its entire real-life weeks-long journey to "max" performance is not the way to create a "skill" progression system.

Well I like it. Gives me a useful command & control role during station demolition. If they could do all of that automatically - line up with mechanical precision at precisely the optimal distance from the target every time with just a single attack order, I'd have nothing more to do than be a passive observer to the fireworks. Personally would find that rather dull, to the point where it would scarcely be worth bothering with. Also very much like the way my demolition fleet becomes noticeably better at the job over time & having personal control over who I pick to command my destroyers (usually high morale fighter pilots) & how well they are trained. For me the skill system makes the whole process of station demolition more enjoyable.

Yeah, I think most players are only looking for a simple RTS system like Homeworld(1998)...

You might be, I'm not. Neither of us knows what 'most players' are looking for.

[Ragnos28]

You're kidding right? Coordinate attack is far from the best possible option. By far the worst option if there are any non-combatants in the fleet (e.g. unarmed M freighters full of missile parts), since it doesn't respect assigned roles & launched/docked status. Recommend avoid at all costs. Tried it again recently & it's still dreadful.

No, no...the main complain when I show my destroyers doing some stupid shit, is...boo, you clips are false you did not use the wonderfull tool the devs have provided, the amazing "coordinate attack"...well that and...the ships are not in formation...you know the fomations that the ships don't keep anyway ...and the...pilots must be 5 stars....and from then on I'm always...here "coordinate attack", formations Eagle, that require 4 stars and of cource...my favorite...5 star pilots.
You see, I know the "coordinate attack" don't work and the destroyers are better of just with simple atack orders (there is a clip of that as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWCpPz25MaA&t=1122s) but some people need to be shown stuff.

For the most part mine DO keep their distance. By far the most common time my destroyers take fire is if I mess up their reposition orders (when it's time to send them round to the far side of a station) & inadvertently give them a flight path which takes them a bit too close to intact turrets (safest to use 2 fly to's in such situations, but sometimes I'm lazy).

Can we exchange destroyers? You'll get terran destroyers and 5 star 5 moral pilots
No, no my friend....no reposition orders round to the far side of a station for 5 stars pilots the very paragons of efficiency and clever decision making, I mean really, what is this?
Because manual reposition can be done by 0 stars 0 morale pilots, just like that one marine that you promote to pilot in your captured ship.

Note: I will check in game what is the distance diference betwin split main battery and terran ones, to see if that is a factor.

Nope, avoid letting your destroyers go into panic mode (a.k.a. Flee) at all costs - sometimes they don't exactly pick an ideal route to get them out of danger. As I said, keep an eye on them & as soon as you notice any of them taking fire give them a fly to order to get them out of there. Just make sure you do that BEFORE Flee kicks in. Best to avoid a full 180° turn though, it's a slow manoeuvre & may expose engines to enemy fire.

Ahh...I give the order to flee, because the destroyer begin to take dmg and I want to save it. Left on its own the 5 star pilot will just stay there till the end, been there, done that. And the full 180° turn, is EXACTLY what I want the pilot to do, as in run away from danger, even with the risk to the engines.

Suggest setting them up in a firing line at around 10km from the target before the attack orders.

I might do that..but for 5 stars pilots!? la creme de la creme? the 10 years veterans? the elite? the best that they can be (literally)?...no no. Direct atack orders for 1 star, direct atack orders for 5 stars. That is the purpose of the test.

In conclusion, @GCU, this is what I want destroyers to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWCpPz25MaA&t=1122s
No manual placement for 5 stars pilots around the station, at 10 km or whatever, at least in initial stage, no...simple atack orders, what they did in the clip...I want THAT, but I only get that once in a blue moon and that is the problem, no consistency in behavior, even for the all migty 5 star pilots, that are the best that we are ever gone get in the game.

[Ragnos28]

Well I like it. Gives me a useful command & control role during station demolition. If they could do all of that automatically - line up with mechanical precision at precisely the optimal distance from the target every time with just a single attack order, I'd have nothing more to do than be a passive observer to the fireworks. Personally would find that rather dull, to the point where it would scarcely be worth bothering with. Also very much like the way my demolition fleet becomes noticeably better at the job over time & having personal control over who I pick to command my destroyers (usually high morale fighter pilots) & how well they are trained. For me the skill system makes the whole process of station demolition more enjoyable.

Well, I don't like it. The destroying of fortifications is the dull part, that means that the fleet battle is over, the enemy forces are spent and only an immobile target remains. Just like RL when sieges where just means to draw armies in to the field.
The only "tactics" that artillery should require is a big sign in front of it that says...FIRE THAT WAY...that's it.

[flywlyx]

You might be, I'm not. Neither of us knows what 'most players' are looking for.

There are tens of games with real time space fleet battle. What "most players" are looking for is very obvious.

[flywlyx]

Well, I don't like it. The destroying of fortifications is the dull part, that means that the fleet battle is over, the enemy forces are spent and only an immobile target remains. Just like RL when sieges where just means to draw armies in to the field.
The only "tactics" that artillery requires is a big sign in front of it that says...FIRE THAT WAY...that's it.

Fleet battle is pretty dull too, X4's AI doesn't have any clue about strategy and tactics.
Their number is the only challenge.

[Ragnos28]

Fleet battle is pretty dull too, X4's AI doesn't have any clue about strategy and tactics.
Their number is the only challenge.

They do have their moments.
For example the xenon capitals travel drive in top of your Asgard, especialy if you atack a station for example. I had that happen to me yesterday, with an I and K, If I did not have a fleet and was pulling the "lone Asgard" thing, I might have been toasted, had a shread of hull left.
You can still be handed your arse to you, if you neglect the need for fighters escorts, for example.
But yeah...the AI have no idea how to properly use a carrier for example, and their destroyers, if by some luck they have a distance advantage, they just MUST come closer, just like with stations.
As such, we get what we can from fleet combat.

[GCU Grey Area]

They do have their moments.

Agree with that. This one was rather fun: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qk5cwkgjx3lx ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[Ragnos28]

They do have their moments.

Agree with that. This one was rather fun: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qk5cwkgjx3lx ... 1.jpg?dl=0

Heh...aparently, we have diferent command styles...I'm always at the helm of the biggest, baddest ship in the fleet

[GCU Grey Area]

Heh...aparently, we have diferent command styles...I'm always at the helm of the biggest, baddest ship in the fleet

Yeah, prefer a bit more mobility on the battlefield. A 1000m/s Cobra, as I was using as my primary ship in that particular game, is pretty much ideal in that regard. Stats here, if you're curious: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksb1y7pqghbo5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Sometimes I fly a destroyer, but most of the time I'm happier in a frigate. Almost never fly XL's myself. Definitely like having them around (it's not a proper fleet without a carrier) but really do not enjoy flying anything with single digit turn rates.

[Ragnos28]

Heh...aparently, we have diferent command styles...I'm always at the helm of the biggest, baddest ship in the fleet

Yeah, prefer a bit more mobility on the battlefield. A 1000m/s Cobra, as I was using as my primary ship in that particular game, is pretty much ideal in that regard. Stats here, if you're curious: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksb1y7pqghbo5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0. Sometimes I fly a destroyer, but most of the time I'm happier in a frigate. Almost never fly XL's myself. Definitely like having them around (it's not a proper fleet without a carrier) but really do not enjoy flying anything with single digit turn rates.

After looking at your prints, I was thinking to rock again a split fleet
Now, my Raptor + bombers/fighters Chimera can kill everything that flyes, but for stations I would need destroyers. So I check the range on main batteries...split main battery 6.7 km, terran main battery 8.9 km..auch.
So I reach the conclusion that if I do a split start, the only fleet I would need is the Raptor + Chimeras and if I put plasma on L turetts, I can deal with stations just with the Raptor, just gone take a long time, plus if I put flak on M turetts, no amount of drones will ever be a threat.

So, for split start....BSG style playthrough

[GCU Grey Area]

After looking at your prints, I was thinking to rock again a split fleet
Now, my Raptor + bombers/fighters Chimera can kill everything that flyes, but for stations I would need destroyers. So I check the range on main batteries...split main battery 6.7 km, terran main battery 8.9 km..auch.
So I reach the conclusion that if I do a split start, the only fleet I would need is the Raptor + Chimeras and if I put plasma on L turetts, I can deal with stations just with the Raptor, just gone take a long time, plus if I put flak on M turetts, no amount of drones will ever be a threat.

So, for split start....BSG style playthrough

Yeah, the range of Rattlesnake guns does leave a lot to be desired, can be quite tricky to use for demolition work. They do still have a range advantage over the Xenon but it's narrow. Careful ship placement was essential. This is why for my second Split game (using the ZYA start) I went to all the trouble of stealing the Argon Fleet to use for station demolition. This did have rather unfortunate consequences for the Argons in their various wars: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psu8n793f7oqa ... 1.jpg?dl=0