ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

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Baconnaise
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by Baconnaise » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 13:30

Zyarth always gets rolled in my custom game seeds regardless of plot settings. Paranids up around emperors/litany of fury get rolled as well since it's two cutoff zones. Argon have tons of trouble in many seeds if I let it run on SETA for hours. The odd thing is I've noticed if you have paranids hop and paranid unify to trinity eventually you'll see HOP or Paranid take over an unclaimed zone completely outfitted with yards and wharf. I'm not sure what the timer is on respawn but if you don't claim a sector or the AI factions that are alive still one will respawn even Xenon.

af_2017
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by af_2017 » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46

Factions (and universe) which require players help is good design.
BUT the player can choose to play "relaxed miner/trader" and being happy as kid just flying ships collecting crystals; that is without intention to become an Emperor Of Mankind.
Currently if player will hide in asteroids for days it will find quite different universe than it was at the begining.
Some areas probably are being protected by story plots but ZYA eventually will occur in one sector and such.

That's nice that by design factions requires savior (from Xenon at least) but I think that should be story plots also.
There should be no terran shredding Xenon by default universe wide. Actually player can do it by his own but later.
Otherwise things look like player is late everywhere. And actually he is, since it starts the game in one ship but factions start with stations full of resources and fleets.

So seems these turnings should help:
- keep all factions staying in their sectors by default, let them mine/trade/build ships but do not capture other sectors (that still will look pretty much alive)
- there could be raids to neighbors but both sides should retreat (even if no resistance have been met) and do not expand
- allow them be more aggressive only if user joined corresponding wars
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I am not claiming being original in the suggestions.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

dougeye
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by dougeye » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 18:59

ok ive just solved this question.

5 asgards with two osakas each as escorts. 3 toyko fully loaded with top spec gladius fighters. k's go pop...... stations are helpless but its a grind destroying them even with the Asgards. (20-30 mins per station real time) My flagship asgard has an exeptional weapons mod, i think called annihilation on its main gun, something like + 45% damage and 65% quicker reload time. thankfully you can reassemble weapon mods without charge at your own shipyards.
I used to list PC parts here, but "the best" will suffice!

TKz
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by TKz » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:15

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
[...]
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I am not claiming being original in the suggestions.
Please no :shock:
A great thing of this game is replayability. I don't want a stale universe, I want a different experience each time.
Actually, I would like for the universe to be even more dynamic.

NightmareNight91
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by NightmareNight91 » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:19

TKz wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:15
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
[...]
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I am not claiming being original in the suggestions.
Please no :shock:
A great thing of this game is replayability. I don't want a stale universe, I want a different experience each time.
Actually, I would like for the universe to be even more dynamic.
I want it to be a bit random every playthrough, but ZYA getting rolled every single time is very stale, they just need cheaper ships, if only for the AI and not the player.

af_2017
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by af_2017 » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:34

TKz wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:15
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
[...]
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I am not claiming being original in the suggestions.
Please no :shock:
A great thing of this game is replayability. I don't want a stale universe, I want a different experience each time.
Actually, I would like for the universe to be even more dynamic.
Then the thing you really want is "randomly connected" sectors each time you start new game.
Because currently ZYA loses their position each time and things required to do to save them always the same.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

Rei Ayanami
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by Rei Ayanami » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:41

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
So seems these turnings should help:
- keep all factions staying in their sectors by default, let them mine/trade/build ships but do not capture other sectors (that still will look pretty much alive)
- there could be raids to neighbors but both sides should retreat (even if no resistance have been met) and do not expand
- allow them be more aggressive only if user joined corresponding wars
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I am not claiming being original in the suggestions.
I absolutely disagree. The universe being dynamic is one of the best features this game has. It forces you to pay attention, to plan ahead and can lead to exiting moments, like when a faction you want to protect gets invaded but you don't have proper ressources to fully defend them, so now you have to improvize.

What would be the point of factions throwing fleets into enemy territory when they can't get anything out of it? It'd just be a fake, static, boring show after a while.

What the game needs more is diplomacy options, (more) ways to influence a factions aggression/greediness levels (as a guild mission completion side effect, diplomacy talk if high enough reputation, bribing faction officials, paying black marketeers to illegally spread rumors and change faction relations) and perhaps even abilities to suggest sectors to a faction which that faction should invade next/concentrate defense on, or the ability to choose where in a sector to build defense stations, so we can place them more intelligently than what the AI had in mind.

Keeping the universe dynamic but greatly enhancing the ability to influence factions behavior would suffice, i'd say.

TKz
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by TKz » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 21:01

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:34
Because currently ZYA loses their position each time and things required to do to save them always the same.
Not in my games. Sometime they lose, sometime their economy is strong enough without any intervention. It depends on many things, but I suspect if they are able to get Tharka's Cascade XV (which they did without my help in my current game) they are in a good position.

af_2017
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by af_2017 » Mon, 10. Jan 22, 22:14

TKz wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 21:01
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:34
Because currently ZYA loses their position each time and things required to do to save them always the same.
Not in my games. Sometime they lose, sometime their economy is strong enough without any intervention. It depends on many things, but I suspect if they are able to get Tharka's Cascade XV (which they did without my help in my current game) they are in a good position.
Ok, whole two options, does not sound rich either.
Rei Ayanami wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 20:41
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
The intention here is keeping universe in somewhat initial state.
I absolutely disagree. The universe being dynamic is one of the best features this game has. It forces you to pay attention, to plan ahead and can lead to exiting moments, like when a faction you want to protect gets invaded but you don't have proper ressources to fully defend them, so now you have to improvize.

What would be the point of factions throwing fleets into enemy territory when they can't get anything out of it? It'd just be a fake, static, boring show after a while.

What the game needs more is diplomacy options, (more) ways to influence a factions aggression/greediness levels (as a guild mission completion side effect, diplomacy talk if high enough reputation, bribing faction officials, paying black marketeers to illegally spread rumors and change faction relations) and perhaps even abilities to suggest sectors to a faction which that faction should invade next/concentrate defense on, or the ability to choose where in a sector to build defense stations, so we can place them more intelligently than what the AI had in mind.

Keeping the universe dynamic but greatly enhancing the ability to influence factions behavior would suffice, i'd say.
I should admit that my point has been missed successfully.
I was talking that I want to be simple miner or trader or kha'ak killer but neither "Emperor Of Mankind" nor "Lord Of The Universe". I do not want to solve their problems meanwhile from the very beginning. But I may want to do it later and for that time I do not want to be late. Easily could be the case when player is able to build his own Asgard there's nothing left to kill because terran already cleaned everything.
The activities which shapes the universe should start by player's decisions by taking part in some story lines. Till that the universe should not fall into hell mess.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

TKz
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by TKz » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 00:58

af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 22:14
Ok, whole two options, does not sound rich either.
Way better than a single option, and it does not mean that it cannot go other ways that I did not experienced :sceptic:
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 14:46
I should admit that my point has been missed successfully.
I was talking that I want to be simple miner or trader or kha'ak killer but neither "Emperor Of Mankind" nor "Lord Of The Universe". I do not want to solve their problems meanwhile from the very beginning. But I may want to do it later and for that time I do not want to be late. Easily could be the case when player is able to build his own Asgard there's nothing left to kill because terran already cleaned everything.
The activities which shapes the universe should start by player's decisions by taking part in some story lines. Till that the universe should not fall into hell mess.
I think that your point have been understood.
For my part, I do prefer that the universe could fall into hell mess in some instances.
And that I have to adapt to it. It's interesting gameplay, at least more interesting in my opinion than "the universe is waiting on me to take a decision before something happen".
Nobody forces you to solve any problems. Be a simple miner, you may have to adapt to the universe changing around at some point but if you decide to intervene into the universe problems, it will be possible, even extinct factions can be rebuilt.

Insects
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by Insects » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 03:23

I think it is a bit of a problem that people can buy the Split DLC, only to discover they are extinct by the time they get up that way and are ready to improve trade standing.

A new player doesn't know how to get up there quickly and establish some trade to stimulate their economy. It's pretty annoying for someone to pay for DLC and then find it's wiped from the game before they even found how to access it.

I think ES could do more to lock some of the Split Xenon intrusion gates until the player has established some trade/conflict with them.

af_2017
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by af_2017 » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 12:09

TKz wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 00:58
af_2017 wrote:
Mon, 10. Jan 22, 22:14
Ok, whole two options, does not sound rich either.
Way better than a single option, and it does not mean that it cannot go other ways that I did not experienced :sceptic:
Seems there are no more options. And I suspect that is defined by combination of:
1. OOS balance (that will get updates forever and will never end).
2. Either terran's Asgard got into the Xenon sectors near ZYA or did not.
And consequences in all cases are quite predictable: ZYA shredded by Xenon or did not.
What do you think?
TKz wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 00:58
For my part, I do prefer that the universe could fall into hell mess in some instances.
And that I have to adapt to it. It's interesting gameplay, at least more interesting in my opinion than "the universe is waiting on me to take a decision before something happen".
Nobody forces you to solve any problems. Be a simple miner, you may have to adapt to the universe changing around at some point but if you decide to intervene into the universe problems, it will be possible, even extinct factions can be rebuilt.
That's must be a matter of play style.
I prefer to do things I like to do and not I am forced to do. "Adapting" in this case is a "forced" action.
From this point, let factions make raid each other, loose some amount of ships, retreat, rebuild ships and repeat, that will run the production, transport will be flying busy delivering stuff, everything will look alive.
That's way better than helpless faction sitting in only one own sector left without ships. That's a desert. With the rest of the sectors occupied by Xenon. Which is not friendly place for happy miners/traders.
So let's make critical things(that is related to sector ownership) optional story lines.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

NightmareNight91
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by NightmareNight91 » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 14:02

Maybe the new DLC will change up the gate connections uo north and give ZYA a break from fighting 3 different xenon clusters and argons at once...as it stands now, in 100% of MY games I am forced to build stations and guard gates for ZYA.

jlehtone
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 16:34

NightmareNight91 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 14:02
Maybe the new DLC will change up the gate connections uo north and give ZYA a break ...
That would mean that you can't really have one DLC (ToA) without an another (SV).

You can't count on every player to purchase and enable all available DLC's. Currently there are four different "X4" to play (which already sounds taxing on tech support): X4, X4+SV, X4+CoH, and X4+SV+CoH. Add ToA and there will be eight? With the almighty RNG in every seed, that is a lot of juggling.

af_2017 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 12:09
That's must be a matter of play style.
I prefer to do things I like to do and not I am forced to do. "Adapting" in this case is a "forced" action.
From this point, let factions make raid each other, loose some amount of ships, retreat, rebuild ships and repeat, that will run the production, transport will be flying busy delivering stuff, everything will look alive.
That's way better than helpless faction sitting in only one own sector left without ships. That's a desert. With the rest of the sectors occupied by Xenon. Which is not friendly place for happy miners/traders.
So let's make critical things(that is related to sector ownership) optional story lines.
There is a philosophical question: "Is the player important?" that has no truly wrong answer.

In X3 player was not important. Nothing did change and everything did "look" alive. Nothing did ever change. (X2 was bit different; NPC Factories could die permanently.) Sure, you could gather a fleet and wipe every sector clean, but achieve nothing apart that short moment of warm feeling that a big explosion does give.

The X4 is alive. Not only look like it, but really is. Continuously changing. Being alive means ability to die, although most factions can't completely die even here; they can rebuild as long as they have trade partners. Before 4.20 Xenon could reach that desert of no ships, no means to rebuild, dead for all practical purposes. (The Kha'ak are still impervious.)

State can change in X4 and player's actions do have effect. Player is not entirely insignificant. Although, we can still gather a fleet and wipe everything and feel that that was way too easy.

Since player can make a difference, the actions -- and lack of actions -- of player have consequences (albeit some are limited). Doing completely freely anything that pleases us has limited viability. Like real life: must do some chores before we can play.

Some players are very pleased when a game "enforces a goal", gives a purpose, and despair if there is none given. Such goal-oriented play is obviously unlike sandbox, where sand remains sand no matter how much we play with it. We, who prefer the sandbox, pride in our ability to see a purpose even in the plain sand; it is our creation.

Alas, I do like those "Xenon" grains of sand in my box and the fact that I don't always find my hammer where I left it. Hence the idea of two boxes -- one peaceful and another with Space Invaders -- separated by "plot choice" ... is not my cup of tea.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

af_2017
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by af_2017 » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 18:34

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 16:34
There is a philosophical question: "Is the player important?" that has no truly wrong answer.
...
Alas, I do like those "Xenon" grains of sand in my box and the fact that I don't always find my hammer where I left it. Hence the idea of two boxes -- one peaceful and another with Space Invaders -- separated by "plot choice" ... is not my cup of tea.
Thank you for your thoughts and for sharing your experience!

The thing is that player does nothing special (mining and trading) but things will fall apart anyway. Regardless to his actions.
So the thing which happens in the game with ZYA might be considered as not obvious but still forced scenario (due to many factors) and player is not important.
What I suggest is making it optional and start it when the player is ready for it.
There are some similar decisions in the game which shape the universe: Paranid story and Terran story. Let's make the same with ZYA and Xenon.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 11. Jan 22, 19:01

af_2017 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 18:34
The thing is that player does nothing special (mining and trading) but things will fall apart anyway.
Not in my games. Trade is often my primary focus for the first few weeks of a new game. In my experience it can have a significant impact. Have been able to swing the balance of power in the Paranid civil war, for example, by simply adjusting my trade blacklists to embargo one faction while continuing to trade with the other. In the case of ZYA one of their problems is ships which require large amounts of resources. Making a point of shipping in those resources can really help. It can also be very profitable & if you buy those resources from one of their enemies it's all the more effective (i.e. starve ARG to supply ZYA).

budforceuk
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by budforceuk » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 19:00

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 19:01
af_2017 wrote:
Tue, 11. Jan 22, 18:34
The thing is that player does nothing special (mining and trading) but things will fall apart anyway.
Not in my games. Trade is often my primary focus for the first few weeks of a new game. In my experience it can have a significant impact. Have been able to swing the balance of power in the Paranid civil war, for example, by simply adjusting my trade blacklists to embargo one faction while continuing to trade with the other. In the case of ZYA one of their problems is ships which require large amounts of resources. Making a point of shipping in those resources can really help. It can also be very profitable & if you buy those resources from one of their enemies it's all the more effective (i.e. starve ARG to supply ZYA).
I don't disagree it can be a big factor.

But in my experience, on all 3 of my major playthroughs the ZYA get rolled.

On my 3rd and current playthrough, I've intentionally tried to do everything I can to help them, and I consider myself an experienced player (although I don't resort to some of the meta money making techniques (exploits?)) and they are still getting rolled.

Basically they are not defending themselves now at all, I am.

I'm still working on it, and I've wiped Xenon in Rhys/matrix and now almost all of Tharkas going back to the Yaki, I haven't cleared the ones to the North West, which are actively attacking but I'm fighting those off manually. I have a massive factory now feeding them resources.

Basically MASSIVE player involvement to help them. I imagine if it wasn't for this they would be wiped from most of their sectors, right now in my game they just about hold the original sectors but down many, many stations and basically no military force.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 19:35

budforceuk wrote:
Wed, 12. Jan 22, 19:00
But in my experience, on all 3 of my major playthroughs the ZYA get rolled.
Guess it depends on what you mean by 'get rolled'. Have see them pushed back to just their core sectors, but they just tend to rebuild their economy in Zyarth's Dominion & keep churning out ships. They do tend to be fairly reliant on Teladi imports at that stage. However even in my FRF game, where I was an outright enemy to ZYA from the start & throughout, they did OK. Noticeably worse than in my other games (where I wasn't constantly stealing their stuff), but at no point did they even come close to being wiped out. They just contracted a bit further than in those other games. However, by the time I brought that game to a close (after 24 in-game days) they'd stabilised the front with the Xenon & had gone on the offensive against the Argons, capturing 11th hour. This was what the map looked like in the final save of that game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0sv3x1ry65xfg ... 1.jpg?dl=0

budforceuk
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by budforceuk » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 21:17

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 12. Jan 22, 19:35
budforceuk wrote:
Wed, 12. Jan 22, 19:00
But in my experience, on all 3 of my major playthroughs the ZYA get rolled.
This was what the map looked like in the final save of that game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0sv3x1ry65xfg ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Mine they had Zyarths Dominion IV and Wretcheed Skies V and thats it. Rest taken by Xenon.

That was my first save the was progressed quite far, second save I didnt get as far but could see similar starting to happen.

Panos
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Re: ZYA are helpless against Xenon?

Post by Panos » Wed, 12. Jan 22, 23:34

I found where the problem is with ZYA. Is not the ships or anything else but GRAPHENE!!!!!! :o
There is barely any Methane in Family Zhin and Family Nhuut also while the graphene factories are too few and barely working.

That leads for ZYA suffering from Graphene production which halts production to everything related to it

Hull Parts
Advanced Composites
Plasma Conductors
Quantum Tubes
Weapon Components
Turret Components
Shield Components
Missile Components
Field Coils
Advanced Electronics.


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