Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

[Scoob]

I personally think Egosoft should be less worried about how players might abuse a mechanic in a single player game. If a player wants to 'abuse' a game mechanic, it's their game to abuse. I think Egosoft should be more concerned with making it fun for the vast majority of non-abusing players. The friendly fire issues when helping an NPC faction in the game are much more serious than any possible exploit some players may take advantage of, IMO. But that's just me.

I agree. It' a single player game. This issue reduces the fun. Sure, it could perhaps be abused by careful ship positioning as Imperial Good says, but that's a bit of an edge case vs. how most people play I suspect.

[Lord Dakier]

I personally think Egosoft should be less worried about how players might abuse a mechanic in a single player game. If a player wants to 'abuse' a game mechanic, it's their game to abuse. I think Egosoft should be more concerned with making it fun for the vast majority of non-abusing players. The friendly fire issues when helping an NPC faction in the game are much more serious than any possible exploit some players may take advantage of, IMO. But that's just me.

This x100.

We're in a singleplayer game. if it's such a big deal then make an option that enables this feature but turns the game modified. I'm really unsure how you can call this out as exploiting, but not look at how broken some Terran and Split ships are compared to non-DLC ships.

[phrozen1]

I think this part of the gamplay is a core-aspect of X4.
The player is encouraged to build fleets and help factions several times.
Not fixing this issue just doesn't seem right.
And blaming it on possible exploits is not a valid excuse in my book.

No solution is not a solution.

[Eyeklops]

Have to agree with the general sentiment here. Being IS and not have a friendly faction get butthurt because my flak turrets eviscerated their fighters would be nice. I support the option to enable "consequence free" AI friendly fire.

[Ragnos28]

What you want is an option to disable the "agrro" mechanic and the reputation mechanic.

Case in point, the split have taken the sector Eleventh Hour from the argon. I don't like that, want to help my argon bros. I'm at +28 rep with the split and +30 with the argon. I bring my fleet in Eleventh Hour, some destroyers on defend, some fighters on intercept. Personally, I don't fire a single shot. The split have about 12 Rattlesnakes, 50 fighters, 2 Monitors, 1 Raptor etc. I only give an order to the destroyers to atack 1 Rattlesnake in the middle of a group. That cascade aggro the entire split fleet...but, I only have given orders to atack a single ship...after that is AI vs AI, my destroyers engage all the other ships automatically, the fighters on intercept also engage S/M ships automatically. After that, because I'm not satisfied with the performance of my argon allies, I order my destroyers to atack a single Behemoth, the same scenario as with the split, my fleet destroy all argon ships as well.

So, in this scenario, my fleet will destroy 12 Rattlesnakes, 50 fighters, 2 Monitors, 1 Raptor + all the Argon ships in the sector and I will not lose a single reputation point? Neat

[LameFox]

Not sure I follow. You're saying that if accidental shots didn't provoke retaliation, no attack would? The game does know if your ships are targeting something on purpose, even if they choose a target based on something other than you giving the order directly.

[Y-llian]

We don’t need to turn off friendly fire completely. We just need a sensible mechanic to emolliate unintended friendly-fire incidents. Imperial’s reparations idea is one such example.

In the past, I suggested a cool down mechanic. You comm your ally before a fight and say you’re going to assist in this area e.g. Eleventh hour. Ally says kewl, friendly-fire will be forgiven for x period of minutes in this area. Rule: you cannot have more than one friendly-fire timer active at a time. After it expires there’s a cool down before you can ask again. Friendly-fire is only really a problem in high attention and that’s the area where we need solutions. Not saying my idea is the best, just throwing it out there.

[LameFox]

I wonder if it could be set up so factions take into account the presence of their enemies when taking friendly fire. So if you hit one surrounded by neutrals (to them) they're upset at being collateral damage, but if there are hostiles nearby they're more 'accidents happen'.

[Ragnos28]

In the past, I suggested a cool down mechanic. You comm your ally before a fight and say you’re going to assist in this area e.g. Eleventh hour. Ally says kewl, friendly-fire will be forgiven for x period of minutes in this area. Rule: you cannot have more than one friendly-fire timer active at a time. After it expires there’s a cool down before you can ask again. Friendly-fire is only really a problem in high attention and that’s the area where we need solutions. Not saying my idea is the best, just throwing it out there.

You are certainly on to something The way I see it is having an dialog option "Offer to assist against....xenon, split, whatever" to the local fleet leader or something. When that offer is accepted.."Afirmative"...your ships in the sector will be treated by the allied AI as its own ships. That will eliminate the frendly fire issue, because when you see an argon Behemoth hiting another argon Behemoth, while trying to kill a Xenon M, the two will not start to pew pew each other
Viceversa will also apply and your ships will say a "target invalid" when and if order to atack allied ships. Also the opposing ships will turn automatically red. That will be in affect, while hostile ships are in the sector.

[Ragnos28]

Not sure I follow. You're saying that if accidental shots didn't provoke retaliation, no attack would? The game does know if your ships are targeting something on purpose, even if they choose a target based on something other than you giving the order directly.

When I have given the scenario in which a player would start the bording of an escorted Asgard, then start to "apologize" to the escorts, turn them "blue" and happily continuing the bording operation, some reply said that there is a diference betwin given an atack order and the AI ships atacking AI ships. Then I remember that my subordonates ships, will engage red targets w/o any order from me, so I could say..."you do those ships agrro? I did not give any order to atack, I'm innocent, I swear, why are they so mean to me? "

[LameFox]

Not sure I follow. You're saying that if accidental shots didn't provoke retaliation, no attack would? The game does know if your ships are targeting something on purpose, even if they choose a target based on something other than you giving the order directly.

When I have given the scenario in which a player would start the bording of an escorted Asgard, then start to "apologize" to the escorts, turn them "blue" and happily continuing the bording operation, some reply said that there is a diference betwin given an atack order and the AI ships atacking AI ships. Then I remember that my subordonates ships, will engage red targets w/o any order from me, so I could say..."you do those ships agrro? I did not give any order to atack, I'm innocent, I swear, why are they so mean to me? "

They probably just worded it strangely. A ship choosing to attack something still gets an order in its behaviour tab, so if the aggro is shifted to that then stray shots would not matter but intentional attacks would. I am not entirely sure how it works with turrets but even those are choosing targets, despite it not being visible to the player, so I think it's likely that distinction can also be made.

[grapedog]

Not sure I follow. You're saying that if accidental shots didn't provoke retaliation, no attack would? The game does know if your ships are targeting something on purpose, even if they choose a target based on something other than you giving the order directly.

When I have given the scenario in which a player would start the bording of an escorted Asgard, then start to "apologize" to the escorts, turn them "blue" and happily continuing the bording operation, some reply said that there is a diference betwin given an atack order and the AI ships atacking AI ships. Then I remember that my subordonates ships, will engage red targets w/o any order from me, so I could say..."you do those ships agrro? I did not give any order to atack, I'm innocent, I swear, why are they so mean to me? "

Who cares? It's a single player game. There are plenty of ways to cheese boarding actions already. Who cares if you decide to do it like that in your own game? I don't.... but I don't want friendly fire every time I try to engage in a big space battle. If you want to abuse it, go ahead. If I choose to, or not to, it should make no difference to anyone else....

But we should all want to have the option to participate in big space battles, without a friendly fire accident turning the whole thing into a huge mess for no good reason.

[Slashman]

Who cares? It's a single player game. There are plenty of ways to cheese boarding actions already. Who cares if you decide to do it like that in your own game? I don't.... but I don't want friendly fire every time I try to engage in a big space battle. If you want to abuse it, go ahead. If I choose to, or not to, it should make no difference to anyone else....

But we should all want to have the option to participate in big space battles, without a friendly fire accident turning the whole thing into a huge mess for no good reason.

I keep hearing people using that argument and it always starts and stops with them. Well its true...it is a single player game...that you paid what...$60 for? That's a single user and some other users on the boards. The fact is that it is not good business to have your games be highly exploitable no matter if it is single or multiplayer. For a number of reasons. Mainly you are seeing one solution to a problem and not thinking of the other implications for where it could cause problems.

The developers do not have the luxury of taking a myopic view of things and need to consider testing, money and manpower to implement your "easy fix". And then consider where it could also break other game logic and fix that. Or are you saying that it is fine to just let it break whatever it wants to so you can have this one scenario work out how you want it to?

Now I personally think that it could use some tweaking...but I'm not assuming that it would start and stop there or that the developers have no good reason for not allowing it to happen in the game currently.

[Eyeklops]

Who cares? It's a single player game. There are plenty of ways to cheese boarding actions already. Who cares if you decide to do it like that in your own game? I don't.... but I don't want friendly fire every time I try to engage in a big space battle. If you want to abuse it, go ahead. If I choose to, or not to, it should make no difference to anyone else....

But we should all want to have the option to participate in big space battles, without a friendly fire accident turning the whole thing into a huge mess for no good reason.

I agree. I'm not sure why these odd edge cases are being argued. I think the spirit of the thread is not about negating the aggro on player caused actions such as ordering a ship to attack or board a friendly. A boarding action or attack order is a clear player aggression and should be handled as such. Unintentional friendly fire due to AI misses is what needs addressed. The NPC AI already seems to get a pass on this because I will get frequent "oops, I'm sorry" comms from them. I think players should get the same pass and it should be done automatically. I say automatic because if I am busy in the map directing a war I don't want to constantly stop to apologize.

[Lord Dakier]

Who cares? It's a single player game. There are plenty of ways to cheese boarding actions already. Who cares if you decide to do it like that in your own game? I don't.... but I don't want friendly fire every time I try to engage in a big space battle. If you want to abuse it, go ahead. If I choose to, or not to, it should make no difference to anyone else....

But we should all want to have the option to participate in big space battles, without a friendly fire accident turning the whole thing into a huge mess for no good reason.

I keep hearing people using that argument and it always starts and stops with them. Well its true...it is a single player game...that you paid what...$60 for? That's a single user and some other users on the boards. The fact is that it is not good business to have your games be highly exploitable no matter if it is single or multiplayer. For a number of reasons. Mainly you are seeing one solution to a problem and not thinking of the other implications for where it could cause problems.

The developers do not have the luxury of taking a myopic view of things and need to consider testing, money and manpower to implement your "easy fix". And then consider where it could also break other game logic and fix that. Or are you saying that it is fine to just let it break whatever it wants to so you can have this one scenario work out how you want it to?

Now I personally think that it could use some tweaking...but I'm not assuming that it would start and stop there or that the developers have no good reason for not allowing it to happen in the game currently.

You're restricting players from properly using a BIG part of the game because some small minority might exploit it. This isn't removing paintbrushes from Elder Scrolls Oblivion because people can walk on them to complete the game in 20 minutes lol. That entire point you make is really, really weak.

As for the previous point about calling off enemies when boarding. Absolutely not, the only time I would be in favour of this is in player-owned space where you fleet is the police force.

[GCU Grey Area]

Personally fine with friendly fire being a thing & would not want it radically changed, at least not to the extent demanded in this thread. It in no way makes assisting NPC fleets "impossible" as the thread title suggests. I do exactly that in most of my games - I don't like to claim sectors for myself, would much rather help my NPC allies to extend their own territory & that means fighting alongside them. Just have to be a bit careful about how I equip my ships (flak in particular is best avoided, for obvious reasons) & what orders I give - i.e. friendly fire is just part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

[Ragnos28]

Personally, I like the concept of rules and consequences to my actions in my games, even single player ones. Even if I play chess by myself, I would still want the pieces on the board to move acording to the rules of chess and, maybe, not have some dice rolling involved

Anyway, I did proposed a posible solution for the problem mention in this thread and a way to implement it.

The way I see it is having an dialog option "Offer to assist against....xenon, split, whatever" to the local fleet leader or something. When that offer is accepted.."Afirmative"...your ships in the sector will be treated by the allied AI as its own ships. That will eliminate the frendly fire issue, because when you see an argon Behemoth hiting another argon Behemoth, while trying to kill a Xenon M, the two will not start to pew pew each other
Viceversa will also apply and your ships will say a "target invalid" when and if order to atack allied ships. Also the opposing ships will turn automatically red. That will be in affect, while hostile ships are in the sector.

[phrozen1]

OMG. What are you guys even talking about? Why are you defending this???

I don't want my NPC-Ships of my fleet shooting at allied faction ships in a fight where i try to help them.
But they do, all the time in every slightly bigger battle.
Btw. factions shoot their own ships all the time but thats no problem.
My own ships shoot each other and sometimes i loose my own ships because of that. OK.

I just dont want to loose rep when i help a faction with my fleet, it's not fun and makes no sense. Nobody can make me believe this is "fun" or this is the "think"-part of x4.
It's just an unsolved problem. And there are many possible solutions which even could add to the gameplay.
But beeing forced to leave the sector and look at the fight from the map is not a solution.

Just look at the mod Shuulo posted on page 1. It solves the problem pretty good and i don't see much potential for exploits.

[Exitialis101]

I would love it if Egosoft found a solution to allow us to help allied fleets with our own fleets.

I made a topic with a poll about this a while ago. It seems like the majority who voted are for some kind of change.

Topic:
viewtopic.php?f=146&t=435850&sid=ee7a8f ... 1&start=30

[Nanook]

Personally fine with friendly fire being a thing & would not want it radically changed, at least not to the extent demanded in this thread. It in no way makes assisting NPC fleets "impossible" as the thread title suggests. I do exactly that in most of my games - I don't like to claim sectors for myself, would much rather help my NPC allies to extend their own territory & that means fighting alongside them. Just have to be a bit careful about how I equip my ships (flak in particular is best avoided, for obvious reasons) & what orders I give - i.e. friendly fire is just part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

Care to enlighten us as to how you 'solved' the friendly fire issue with the "Think aspect of the game"? Because I don't believe you can have a large engagement without that being a major problem. But I'm ready to be educated on how it can be done.