Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

[GCU Grey Area]

Personally fine with friendly fire being a thing & would not want it radically changed, at least not to the extent demanded in this thread. It in no way makes assisting NPC fleets "impossible" as the thread title suggests. I do exactly that in most of my games - I don't like to claim sectors for myself, would much rather help my NPC allies to extend their own territory & that means fighting alongside them. Just have to be a bit careful about how I equip my ships (flak in particular is best avoided, for obvious reasons) & what orders I give - i.e. friendly fire is just part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

[Ragnos28]

Personally, I like the concept of rules and consequences to my actions in my games, even single player ones. Even if I play chess by myself, I would still want the pieces on the board to move acording to the rules of chess and, maybe, not have some dice rolling involved

Anyway, I did proposed a posible solution for the problem mention in this thread and a way to implement it.

The way I see it is having an dialog option "Offer to assist against....xenon, split, whatever" to the local fleet leader or something. When that offer is accepted.."Afirmative"...your ships in the sector will be treated by the allied AI as its own ships. That will eliminate the frendly fire issue, because when you see an argon Behemoth hiting another argon Behemoth, while trying to kill a Xenon M, the two will not start to pew pew each other
Viceversa will also apply and your ships will say a "target invalid" when and if order to atack allied ships. Also the opposing ships will turn automatically red. That will be in affect, while hostile ships are in the sector.

[phrozen1]

OMG. What are you guys even talking about? Why are you defending this???

I don't want my NPC-Ships of my fleet shooting at allied faction ships in a fight where i try to help them.
But they do, all the time in every slightly bigger battle.
Btw. factions shoot their own ships all the time but thats no problem.
My own ships shoot each other and sometimes i loose my own ships because of that. OK.

I just dont want to loose rep when i help a faction with my fleet, it's not fun and makes no sense. Nobody can make me believe this is "fun" or this is the "think"-part of x4.
It's just an unsolved problem. And there are many possible solutions which even could add to the gameplay.
But beeing forced to leave the sector and look at the fight from the map is not a solution.

Just look at the mod Shuulo posted on page 1. It solves the problem pretty good and i don't see much potential for exploits.

[Exitialis101]

I would love it if Egosoft found a solution to allow us to help allied fleets with our own fleets.

I made a topic with a poll about this a while ago. It seems like the majority who voted are for some kind of change.

Topic:
viewtopic.php?f=146&t=435850&sid=ee7a8f ... 1&start=30

[Nanook]

Personally fine with friendly fire being a thing & would not want it radically changed, at least not to the extent demanded in this thread. It in no way makes assisting NPC fleets "impossible" as the thread title suggests. I do exactly that in most of my games - I don't like to claim sectors for myself, would much rather help my NPC allies to extend their own territory & that means fighting alongside them. Just have to be a bit careful about how I equip my ships (flak in particular is best avoided, for obvious reasons) & what orders I give - i.e. friendly fire is just part of the Think aspect of the game as far as I'm concerned.

Care to enlighten us as to how you 'solved' the friendly fire issue with the "Think aspect of the game"? Because I don't believe you can have a large engagement without that being a major problem. But I'm ready to be educated on how it can be done.

[GCU Grey Area]

Care to enlighten us as to how you 'solved' the friendly fire issue with the "Think aspect of the game"? Because I don't believe you can have a large engagement without that being a major problem. But I'm ready to be educated on how it can be done.

Careful choice of weapons for the most part. Shorter range weapons or those which have a high projectile speed seem to cause noticeably fewer friendly fire incidents than using longer range or inaccurate weapons. Would definitely recommend avoiding anything with a significant blast radius if you're planning to fight alongside allied forces (e.g. flak, blast mortar, torps). Shield bypassing weapons can also cause problems.

Main thing you need to avoid is complete destruction of allied S/M ships or subsystems on one of their capital ship - that sort of thing really annoys them to the point where they'll turn hostile. However they generally tolerate the occasional burst of friendly fire that hits them as long as it doesn't destroy anything important.

I also try to avoid using fleets too close to friendly NPC stations. If I'm trying to defend one I'll position my fleet (i.e. protect position behaviour) to intercept enemy forces before they can reach it, but if any does manage to get past I deal with them personally.

When defending a gate I'll generally put the centre of the protect position zone around 15-20km above the gate, so as enemy forces emerge from the gate my ships dive down to attack, rather than operating in the same plane as allied NPC forces (e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tatawvg5yk8d ... 1.jpg?dl=0). Can never completely eliminate the risk of friendly fire but can do a fair bit to mitigate it.

[Exitialis101]

Care to enlighten us as to how you 'solved' the friendly fire issue with the "Think aspect of the game"? Because I don't believe you can have a large engagement without that being a major problem. But I'm ready to be educated on how it can be done.

Careful choice of weapons for the most part. Shorter range weapons or those which have a high projectile speed seem to cause noticeably fewer friendly fire incidents than using longer range or inaccurate weapons. Would definitely recommend avoiding anything with a significant blast radius if you're planning to fight alongside allied forces (e.g. flak, blast mortar, torps). Shield bypassing weapons can also cause problems.

Main thing you need to avoid is complete destruction of allied S/M ships or subsystems on one of their capital ship - that sort of thing really annoys them to the point where they'll turn hostile. However they generally tolerate the occasional burst of friendly fire that hits them as long as it doesn't destroy anything important.

I also try to avoid using fleets too close to friendly NPC stations. If I'm trying to defend one I'll position my fleet (i.e. protect position behaviour) to intercept enemy forces before they can reach it, but if any does manage to get past I deal with them personally.

When defending a gate I'll generally put the centre of the protect position zone around 15-20km above the gate, so as enemy forces emerge from the gate my ships dive down to attack, rather than operating in the same plane as allied NPC forces (e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tatawvg5yk8d ... 1.jpg?dl=0). Can never completely eliminate the risk of friendly fire but can do a fair bit to mitigate it.

So your solution to NPC friendly fire is to restrict the choices of weapons, restrict strategies, restrict, restrict...
For a game about freedom of choice that is low.

I have confidence in Egosoft and I think that the majority of players who want some change in this system will see it.

[Slashman]

Care to enlighten us as to how you 'solved' the friendly fire issue with the "Think aspect of the game"? Because I don't believe you can have a large engagement without that being a major problem. But I'm ready to be educated on how it can be done.

Careful choice of weapons for the most part. Shorter range weapons or those which have a high projectile speed seem to cause noticeably fewer friendly fire incidents than using longer range or inaccurate weapons. Would definitely recommend avoiding anything with a significant blast radius if you're planning to fight alongside allied forces (e.g. flak, blast mortar, torps). Shield bypassing weapons can also cause problems.

Main thing you need to avoid is complete destruction of allied S/M ships or subsystems on one of their capital ship - that sort of thing really annoys them to the point where they'll turn hostile. However they generally tolerate the occasional burst of friendly fire that hits them as long as it doesn't destroy anything important.

I also try to avoid using fleets too close to friendly NPC stations. If I'm trying to defend one I'll position my fleet (i.e. protect position behaviour) to intercept enemy forces before they can reach it, but if any does manage to get past I deal with them personally.

When defending a gate I'll generally put the centre of the protect position zone around 15-20km above the gate, so as enemy forces emerge from the gate my ships dive down to attack, rather than operating in the same plane as allied NPC forces (e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tatawvg5yk8d ... 1.jpg?dl=0). Can never completely eliminate the risk of friendly fire but can do a fair bit to mitigate it.

So your solution to NPC friendly fire is to restrict the choices of weapons, restrict strategies, restrict, restrict...
For a game about freedom of choice that is low.

I have confidence in Egosoft and I think that the majority of players who want some change in this system will see it.

I dunno...it sounds like thinking to me...but hey I say tomato and you say zucchini.

I mean I suppose I may have the word freedom misinterpreted. Does it actually mean that anything I do works out for me? I thought it was freedom to make a choice and that choice may have consequences but I am free to make it.

If all strategies and weapons are the best choices in all situations...then there is no point to strategy. What you want is to have no consequences for something that you find annoying.

[Exitialis101]

I dunno...it sounds like thinking to me...but hey I say tomato and you say zucchini.

Sure, thinking to avoid something that should not need to be avoided. Have you never wanted to aid allies only to find yourself not being able to because of NPC friendly fire?

I mean I suppose I may have the word freedom misinterpreted. Does it actually mean that anything I do works out for me? I thought it was freedom to make a choice and that choice may have consequences but I am free to make it.

I mean I suppose I may have the word freedom misinterpreted too. Does it mean that you have to restrict your strategies because of an unrealistic game mechanic that forces you to let your allies get butchered while you watch, only to fight when they are dead?

If all strategies and weapons are the best choices in all situations...then there is no point to strategy.

That is not what I want, and you likely know that. Now you are jumping to conclusions because of one small, yet big mechanic. NPC Friendly FIre needs to be fixed somehow.

What you want is to have no consequences for something that you find annoying.

I never said no consequences, now you are putting words in my mouth. I want to be able to fight alongside allies, in the same sector, using the NPC weapons of my choice and the strategies of my choice without the game making me a hostile to those allies. Is that so much to ask?

[Slashman]

Sure, thinking to avoid something that should not need to be avoided. Have you never wanted to aid allies only to find yourself not being able to because of NPC friendly fire?

So you think that you should be able to use any and all big splash damage weapons and have the NPCs ignore them?

Look, I'm not gonna waste time here trying to find a way to make you feel better about using the tools that you already have to avoid an outcome that you do not want. GCU Grey Area already said how he avoids big NPC friendly fire mistakes, but you want to go down the road of what should be instead of what is. The strategy of using less splash damage weapons and positioning your fleet...which sounds to me like a valid strategy and makes sense, versus going in with whatever weapons you feel like and mixing it up with the enemy and NPCs in a free for all...which sounds like no strategy to me.

Until and IF Egosoft makes a fix for this, you can do the smart thing and follow his advice or spend all your days in frustration. It doesn't matter to me, but I have found that when I follow GCU Grey Area's advice, I usually have much less head-banging frustration and can enjoy my game and move along with my objectives. But hey...you do you!

[Exitialis101]

Sure, thinking to avoid something that should not need to be avoided. Have you never wanted to aid allies only to find yourself not being able to because of NPC friendly fire?

So you think that you should be able to use any and all big splash damage weapons and have the NPCs ignore them?

Look, I'm not gonna waste time here trying to find a way to make you feel better about using the tools that you already have to avoid an outcome that you do not want. GCU Grey Area already said how he avoids big NPC friendly fire mistakes, but you want to go down the road of what should be instead of what is. The strategy of using less splash damage weapons and positioning your fleet...which sounds to me like a valid strategy and makes sense, versus going in with whatever weapons you feel like and mixing it up with the enemy and NPCs in a free for all...which sounds like no strategy to me.

Until and IF Egosoft makes a fix for this, you can do the smart thing and follow his advice or spend all your days in frustration. It doesn't matter to me, but I have found that when I follow GCU Grey Area's advice, I usually have much less head-banging frustration and can enjoy my game and move along with my objectives. But hey...you do you!

I use Terrans with Terran weapons, so I suppose I shouldn't? I should restrict that and go away from RP choices because of a game mechanic that is currently wrongly implemented.

I also doubt using GCU's strategy even works when there is a cluster of ships on all sides, I would like to see a video of such a confrontation where NPC friendly fire can be avoided. Or I simply will not believe it.

Also, others have mentioned turret control and switching turrets on/off to avoid FF. That is another bad argument. You would be have to pause in the middle of the battle numerous times just to manage turrets.

Another thing, I made a poll on Reddit where another majority was in favour of some change, link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/ ... lies_poll/

What would be best, however, was if Egosoft themselves polled us about NPC Friendly FIre.

[Lord Dakier]

Careful choice of weapons for the most part. Shorter range weapons or those which have a high projectile speed seem to cause noticeably fewer friendly fire incidents than using longer range or inaccurate weapons. Would definitely recommend avoiding anything with a significant blast radius if you're planning to fight alongside allied forces (e.g. flak, blast mortar, torps). Shield bypassing weapons can also cause problems.

Rangers I know there is a tank shooting at us, but drop the RPG's we have friendlies in the way.
Shouldn't we just get them to move out the way?
No, no! Drpo the RPG's. Bullets only, they're much less likely to cause friendly fire.

[grapedog]

GCU also said one way to avoid friendly fire is positionimg his forces away from allies, which while valid sometimes, also sucks. He isn't participating in the big battle, he is screening for it.

And if i build a defense station, bordering a xenon gate, the game itself has a mechanic where friendly factions use my platform as a rally point. If a swarm of xenon comes through, i have to leave. Even when i leave allies alone, they come to me.... so i should just not build defense platforms now? Or i should restrict my weapon choices whem i have no control over the allies that come to aid me and get hit in the process? I love the fact the NPCs rally around my defense platform... but not when i have to leave any big fight.

The mechanic isn't working as it should.

[GCU Grey Area]

GCU also said one way to avoid friendly fire is positionimg his forces away from allies, which while valid sometimes, also sucks. He isn't participating in the big battle, he is screening for it.

Not quite. I put the Protect Position zone off-centre from the fight (usually above) because that's where I want my carriers & auxiliaries to lurk. The size of the zone however is configured to include enemy forces I'd like my ships to attack. My ships do play an active role in hostilities - destroyers & fighters descend to do battle with enemy forces & then fly back up to resume formation or dock with their command carrier when the fight's over. Working on the principle that if my ships (& therefore a lot of their bullets) are mostly moving in a direction perpendicular to allied NPC ships (& their bullets) there's less chance of them intersecting each other in an unfortunate manner than if, say, both forces are shooting at the same targets from opposite sides. Incidentally, prefer to position my forces on the vertical axis (relative to NPC ships), rather than off to one side, because NPC ships don't use that axis as much.

[Nanook]

I think it's great that you can manage to arrange your battles in such a way. However, in 'real game life' it seldom works out that way. So much depends on the friendly and enemy ships cooperating with your plan. In my experience, they aren't so cooperative.

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?

[Ragnos28]

I think it's great that you can manage to arrange your battles in such a way. However, in 'real game life' it seldom works out that way. So much depends on the friendly and enemy ships cooperating with your plan. In my experience, they aren't so cooperative.

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?

You get "horde of Xenon" atacking stations? All I get are lonely I and K that sit under plasma turetts fire like is a gentle summer rain

Also, in your defend friendly station scenario, If xenon capitals are on the other side of the station (based on you/your fleet position), maybe ordering your Asgard/destroyers/torpedo boats/torpedo fighters to engage the xenon capitals directly (w/o previous repositioning) with the idea that nothing wrong can happen, is not the optimal strategy.

[GCU Grey Area]

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?

Definitely not "oh well". Usually such circustances arise when a new sector has been captured from the Xenon & I'm waiting for my NPC allies to finish building a defence platform to claim the sector. Definitely want that thing built (who knows when they'll decide to build another if it's destroyed) & definitely don't want it to turn hostile (I'm usually the one supplying most of the building materials). Generally use multiple fleets to defend the building site. Fleet #1 is positioned above the gate to the Xenon sector, to intercept enemies as soon as they emerge. Fleet #2 is positioned closer to the defence platform, though the platform itself is generally just outside the Protect Position zone (so my forces will break off pursuit if enemy ships get too close to the station). Very little gets past 2 of my fleets, just the occasional S or M class ship & very few of those. If there are no NPC ships around to deal with the leftovers, or the defence platform is still in a very early stage of construction & has no turrets yet, I'll mop them up myself. For context, my standard fleets generally consist of 1 carrier, 1 auxiliary, 5 destroyers & around 50 fighters.

[LameFox]

I think it's great that you can manage to arrange your battles in such a way. However, in 'real game life' it seldom works out that way. So much depends on the friendly and enemy ships cooperating with your plan. In my experience, they aren't so cooperative.

Tell me, what's your plan for a horde of Xenon attacking a friendly station you'd like to help protect? Friendly fire around friendly stations causes some of the worst incidents. Or do you just let the station be destroyed and say "oh well"?

You get "horde of Xenon" atacking stations? All I get are lonely I and K that sit under plasma turetts fire like is a gentle summer rain

Also, in your defend friendly station scenario, If xenon capitals are on the other side of the station (based on you/your fleet position), maybe ordering your Asgard/destroyers/torpedo boats/torpedo fighters to engage the xenon capitals directly (w/o previous repositioning) with the idea that nothing wrong can happen, is not the optimal strategy.

I do, sometimes. Lucky for me though in the latest case the station was mine and nobody 'helped', so FF didn't apply, but it lasted about 10-15 minutes and by the time it was over the map between the station and the gate had about 7 K wrecks in it, and I don't know how many smaller ships died. A lot. If any allies had tried to get into that I think the plasma coming off the station would stand a fair chance of causing problems, considering it moves so slow a fighter could ram it from behind.

This varies a lot though, mostly it's just small groups of fighters and Ps trickling through.

I can certainly imagine it would have sucked if I wanted to save a neutral station from that.

[Ragnos28]

I do, sometimes. Lucky for me though in the latest case the station was mine and nobody 'helped', so FF didn't apply, but it lasted about 10-15 minutes and by the time it was over the map between the station and the gate had about 7 K wrecks in it, and I don't know how many smaller ships died. A lot. If any allies had tried to get into that I think the plasma coming off the station would stand a fair chance of causing problems, considering it moves so slow a fighter could ram it from behind.

This varies a lot though, mostly it's just small groups of fighters and Ps trickling through.

I can certainly imagine it would have sucked if I wanted to save a neutral station from that.

I have invested close to a billion in turetts on all factories that can have them and disc defence modules on my stations and nobody atack me From time to time, I see some disguise pirate trying to mess with my stations, I turn it hostile and watch the fireworks, but that is such a rare occurrence

I have such fond memories from 3.3 when I used to place this at xenon gates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLGzoanFueU&t=30s Post 4.0, I only buid these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-waOVbfEX4 in sectors that I claim. I have never seen them fire at anything

[Nanook]

I see the confusion now. You all are talking about mid-late game where you have huge fleets of destroyers and such. I doubt you even remember what it's like to play an early game where fighters play the biggest roles, both friendly and enemy. The hordes of Xenon I'm talking about are just that - fighters. How do you defend a friendly station with several dozen Xenon S and M class fighters attacking it without having a friendly fire problem?

In my game, this happens on a regular basis in Hatikvah's Choice I when the Xenon come boiling out of Tharka's Cascade, and attack my friends in the Hatikvah Free League. I can't send in any of my fighters to help out for fear of 'friendly fire'. Even if just I go in, there's a fair chance I'll hit the station a few times while fighting off the attackers. Not that my little peashooters will do much damage, but if I hit them one too many times, the whole sector may go red on me.

That's an unacceptable game mechanic to me. So I'm reduced to sending in my ships without me being in the sector to take part in the action. I become just a spectator. Not fun.