Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

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Pares
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Pares » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:55

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
While I would agree with that, I don't really see how would the AI make a diference betwin turetts fire and fire from the main batery of my AI controled Asgard (something also outside of your control) or the main batteries of my AI controled destroyers, that result in damage or destruction of the allied ships.
How about making AI ships simply not capable of doing friendly fire damage? Limit friendly fire damage only to the guns which the player directly fires?

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:58

grapedog wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:49
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41


Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
You're just being obtuse now, and I'm done with you.
That may be the case, but can we at least conclude that I'm not hurt by the changes in cristal mining and shipyards profits? :lol:

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 13:03

Pares wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:55
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:41
While I would agree with that, I don't really see how would the AI make a diference betwin turetts fire and fire from the main batery of my AI controled Asgard (something also outside of your control) or the main batteries of my AI controled destroyers, that result in damage or destruction of the allied ships.
How about making AI ships simply not capable of doing friendly fire damage? Limit friendly fire damage only to the guns which the player directly fires?
Like I said, the solution as I see it is for Egosoft to introduce a real "ally" mechanic in which my ships get treated by the "ally" AI in the same way as its own ships, no retaliation in case of friendly fire, for as long as there are hostile targets in the area. With a dialog option like...offer to assist against...xenon, split, etc...affirmative...and then your ships/stations (so I include grapedog example, as upset as maybe he is now :P) get "ally" status. That mechanic can be completed with an invalid target message, if you order your ships to atack "allied" forces.

Exitialis101
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Exitialis101 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 16:53

Does anyone know if there is an official response to this issue? There have been a few threads about it over the years. Would love to know what Egosoft thinks.
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Nanook » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:55

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41
....
Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
We're talking about friendly fire damage, not friendly fire destruction, obviously. :roll: And most of the friendly fire incidents occur, in my experience, when you or your troops are helping to defend either a station or a large friendly ship. I rarely see such incidents between two fighters. The game also knows what you're targeting, so that also factors in. And it knows the size of the various hitboxes of the involved ships and stations. So it could easily either negate any damage when a friendly ship/station fires through a friendly hitbox at an enemy on the other side, or not let the AI-controlled ships even fire in those cases.

The game obviously knows exactly who fires every shot in a battle, so it's entirely feasible to do one or the other. For whatever reasons, Egosoft hasn't chosen to do either of the above options, instead choosing to penalize the player for participating in large battles, and even for attempting to protect friendly ships/stations. Maybe it's their idea of making the game more challenging. :twisted:
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:35

Nanook wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 19:55
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 12:41
....
Corect me if I'm wrong, the clear and reasonable thing you are asking is to destroy ships w/o the rest of them turning red, just because you are "helping" and the AI should know this...how exactly?
We're talking about friendly fire damage, not friendly fire destruction, obviously. :roll: And most of the friendly fire incidents occur, in my experience, when you or your troops are helping to defend either a station or a large friendly ship. I rarely see such incidents between two fighters. The game also knows what you're targeting, so that also factors in. And it knows the size of the various hitboxes of the involved ships and stations. So it could easily either negate any damage when a friendly ship/station fires through a friendly hitbox at an enemy on the other side, or not let the AI-controlled ships even fire in those cases.

The game obviously knows exactly who fires every shot in a battle, so it's entirely feasible to do one or the other. For whatever reasons, Egosoft hasn't chosen to do either of the above options, instead choosing to penalize the player for participating in large battles, and even for attempting to protect friendly ships/stations. Maybe it's their idea of making the game more challenging. :twisted:
The thing is the AI have no way of "knowing" that player is trying to help it, because Egosoft did not implement an "allied" system. Sure you might have positive reputation with a faction but you are not a "real" ally, case in point, my example of suporting the ally + 30 argon against the ally +28 split, both allies, but I like the argon ally, more :P Plus, the player can always change his mind about the "alliance" mid-fight.

On your point of the game knowing what you're targeting, that is not always true. The Asgard main battery or the destroyers main guns do not require me to target, just point the gun towards the admin center of the defence station that prevent me to take over the sector and buzz. I'm innocent, I never target the station, I never mark the station as hostile, it was an accident, I swear :roll: I know, in my example you fire the weapon, but AI controled Asgard/destroyers can fire the main weapons also. That is why the aggro mechanic take in consideration in order to be triggered, the damage/the hit not the targeting.

I see the situation like this: the AI ships have a scripted behavior like...if anyone other that my own ships hit me twice I turn red. Does not matter if I hit it, if my turetts hit it while trying to get that xenon M that is behind the friendly destroyer or if my AI controled Asgard or destroyers use the main weapons to hit that xenon M that is behind or near the station.

I think you are on to something with the not let the AI-controlled ships fire at hostile targets that are behind non-hostile targets, like the fighter planes in ww1 with machine guns behind the propeller, but even so, you can't count for the splash dmg from the flak turetts, for example. Not so much for the negate damage idea, frankly I would not want to see the 600k+ MJ Asgard weapon doing no dmg because no target is being selected (in case of the player controled Asgard) or because the selected target is behind a non-hostile ship/structure (in the case of AI controled Asgard), because that would make no sense in a space game simulation. There are enough things in game that break the immersion, I don't really need another one.

I too find it anoying, when my fighters squadrons aggro the fighters/stations of the factions I try to help and I must reload or play exterminatus on all forces in the sector, but the thing is I understand why that happens. It's not some evil Egosoft plot to torment the player. I also understand when players say that "AI hit me all the time and say...your fault cuz you got in the way, hi hi...but when I hit them, not on purpose, is ww3"...but I also understand that the AI does not have the situational awareness the player have.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Nanook » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 10:13

Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:35
....
On your point of the game knowing what you're targeting, that is not always true....
The point I was trying to make is that the game knows where every shot comes from. Targeting is actually irrelevant. Since the game knows where every shot comes from, it can then decide whether to apply that damage, or not even let the guns fire, depending on the situation. However, the game also knows what you, the player, is targeting, and if you target a friendly, then it can apply the damage as well as the appropriate AI response. So, friendly bullet hits friendly target - no damage. Friendly bullet hits enemy - damage. I wouldn't think the overhead on such a simple algorithm would be too steep. But maybe it is.

And if the player decides he/she wants their ships to attack friendlies, there's an option to set a ship/station as hostile, and so your ships would be able to attack it.

I think someone at Egosoft didn't fully understand the ramifications of the current friendly fire issues. At least, I hope that's the case and it gets fixed soon. Because it is a real problem.
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:47

Nanook wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 10:13
Ragnos28 wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 21:35
....
On your point of the game knowing what you're targeting, that is not always true....
The point I was trying to make is that the game knows where every shot comes from. Targeting is actually irrelevant. Since the game knows where every shot comes from, it can then decide whether to apply that damage, or not even let the guns fire, depending on the situation. However, the game also knows what you, the player, is targeting, and if you target a friendly, then it can apply the damage as well as the appropriate AI response. So, friendly bullet hits friendly target - no damage. Friendly bullet hits enemy - damage. I wouldn't think the overhead on such a simple algorithm would be too steep. But maybe it is.

And if the player decides he/she wants their ships to attack friendlies, there's an option to set a ship/station as hostile, and so your ships would be able to attack it.

I think someone at Egosoft didn't fully understand the ramifications of the current friendly fire issues. At least, I hope that's the case and it gets fixed soon. Because it is a real problem.
The only problem I have with your "friendly bullet hits friendly target - no damage. Friendly bullet hits enemy - damage" proposed mechanic is that it introduce an element of "magic" in a space simulation game and from my understanding, the devs are not so keen on that :sceptic: Tho, if that policy had change, I would like the reintroduction of the Xenon fleets that spawn based on the combat rank of the player on patrol missions like in X3 TC, please :mrgreen:

Anyway, like someone else on this thread pointed out, I would like to hear the position from someone on Egosoft staff on this issue, so we don't waste time and energy arguing, when maybe there is nothing to be gain, gameplay wise.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by LameFox » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:56

Along the theme of this thread, just today I was warned by a Split Wharf I decided to save from a K. Half their station was in ruins and they threaten me because one of my turrets shot a defence drone that had run into the K and was scraping along the hull. :roll:
***modified***

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 12:11

LameFox wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:56
Along the theme of this thread, just today I was warned by a Split Wharf I decided to save from a K. Half their station was in ruins and they threaten me because one of my turrets shot a defence drone that had run into the K and was scraping along the hull. :roll:
Sometimes, the problem with helping the old lady cross the street is that the old lady does not want to cross the street :roll: After all, you prevented the split to die a glorious death in combat :split:

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Eyeklops » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 23:46

After reading the conflicting viewpoints here if Egosoft were to make a change it might be best served as a game "option". That could be the easiest way to make both camps happy.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by grapedog » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 00:38

Eyeklops wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 23:46
After reading the conflicting viewpoints here if Egosoft were to make a change it might be best served as a game "option". That could be the easiest way to make both camps happy.
Most of the opinions here against fixing friendly fire are simply wrong and under the mistaken impression it will be exploitative.

If it is adjusted so it fixes the obvious problem, without letting the player exploit the system easily, even the naysayers won't have a leg to stand on.

It shouldn't need a switch, it should just work, and currently it doesn't work... the AI can do things the player cannot, the AI has options the player doesn't have. And if the AI tried to help the player like the player helps the AI, it would be a lot worse. I guess we're lucky that the AI ignores us for the most part. You can already see what happens when the AI rallys around a player defense platform in a highly contested area... if you're in the fight personally, your station will eventually turn the friendly fleet red, and then destroy them. That isn't working like it should...

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Nanook » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 02:33

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:47
...
The only problem I have with your "friendly bullet hits friendly target - no damage. Friendly bullet hits enemy - damage" proposed mechanic is that it introduce an element of "magic" in a space simulation game and from my understanding, the devs are not so keen on that...
Oh, so you don't consider Kha'ak/Xenon/SCA ships magically appearing along your line of travel in deep space as magic? While they don't technically 'spawn', they are created in some other far away sector and suddenly instantly transported there. Or how about respawning minerals in places where they were depleted? If that's not 'magic', I don't know what is. Another fine example is the ability of AI-controlled ships to travel through other ships as well as stations. The game already has a lot of so-called magic programmed in. So I don't see the 'bullet magic' as that much of a difference. So you see, you really don't have a problem with it after all. :P
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 11:29

Nanook wrote:
Sun, 5. Dec 21, 02:33
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 11:47
...
The only problem I have with your "friendly bullet hits friendly target - no damage. Friendly bullet hits enemy - damage" proposed mechanic is that it introduce an element of "magic" in a space simulation game and from my understanding, the devs are not so keen on that...
Oh, so you don't consider Kha'ak/Xenon/SCA ships magically appearing along your line of travel in deep space as magic? While they don't technically 'spawn', they are created in some other far away sector and suddenly instantly transported there. Or how about respawning minerals in places where they were depleted? If that's not 'magic', I don't know what is. Another fine example is the ability of AI-controlled ships to travel through other ships as well as stations. The game already has a lot of so-called magic programmed in. So I don't see the 'bullet magic' as that much of a difference. So you see, you really don't have a problem with it after all. :P
I like this example "the ability of AI-controlled ships to travel through other ships as well as stations". I do remember fondly some in game moments, when I'm like ...space simulation, hell yeah :mrgreen: then see the ships "swiming" in the texture of other ships..and me like...yeah, I'm gone pretend I did not see that, put my fingers in my ears and go la la la :roll: Or when I show X4 footage on my Youtube channel and I go..this is a great space simulation game..and someone in the comments go...dude, you ships pass through each other..and I'm like...yeah...but we chose not to look at the screen in that moment, so it's ok :roll:

Regarding the "Kha'ak/Xenon/SCA ships magically appearing along your line of travel in deep space"...ok, then give me back my patrol and taxi, spawning the Xenon apocalypse, missions from X3 TC, Egosoft, prety please. :mrgreen: You know...I have a little problem with the xenons and I require transportation...what problem?...small problem, dont worry about it..ok...10 I's, 20 K's, 100 P pop up :o ...Holly sh...What did you do man? what did you do? :lol:

Now on the "beloved" friendly fire issue. Friendly fire happen in RL military conflicts all the time, the diference is that the forces involved don't start fighting each other, because they are real allies, with treaties and stuff. Let's say that US troops begin to be under artilery fire from a somewhat friendly miltary force, that the US have no treaties with. What their reaction would be? Somehow, I don't think it will be...yeah, that's ok, I mean the shells fall in a friendly way :doh:

That is why I don't want a dmg negation mechanic, but a real "ally" mechanic, where I can ask...yo, dudes, want me to help against these guys?...yeah...ok then, include my ships and my station under the same "protocol" as your own ships as in if friendly fire occur, don't go out guns blazing, for as long as there are enemies in the sector. In other words, I want for my ships/stations to be treated by the AI as its own ships, for the duration of the engagement.

Anyway, like I was saying, what WE want, is totally irrelevant, until someone from Egosoft says...yeah, we are looking in to it. Because, until such event occur, we talk talks :roll: And only then, we go..dear devs, pick me, pick me (as in mine or someone else sugestion) :D

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Slashman » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 17:35

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 5. Dec 21, 11:29


Now on the "beloved" friendly fire issue. Friendly fire happen in RL military conflicts all the time, the diference is that the forces involved don't start fighting each other, because they are real allies, with treaties and stuff. Let's say that US troops begin to be under artilery fire from a somewhat friendly miltary force, that the US have no treaties with. What their reaction would be? Somehow, I don't think it will be...yeah, that's ok, I mean the shells fall in a friendly way :doh:

That is why I don't want a dmg negation mechanic, but a real "ally" mechanic, where I can ask...yo, dudes, want me to help against these guys?...yeah...ok then, include my ships and my station under the same "protocol" as your own ships as in if friendly fire occur, don't go out guns blazing, for as long as there are enemies in the sector. In other words, I want for my ships/stations to be treated by the AI as its own ships, for the duration of the engagement.

Anyway, like I was saying, what WE want, is totally irrelevant, until someone from Egosoft says...yeah, we are looking in to it. Because, until such event occur, we talk talks :roll: And only then, we go..dear devs, pick me, pick me (as in mine or someone else sugestion) :D
I think you have an interesting idea here. I'm just wondering what level it should be implemented at. Do you require the player to sign a separate treaty and pledge their ships and service to the faction where destroyed property comes with a severe penalty but not aggression? What penalty would be sufficient? Or should there not be one?
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 19:01

Slashman wrote:
Sun, 5. Dec 21, 17:35
I think you have an interesting idea here. I'm just wondering what level it should be implemented at. Do you require the player to sign a separate treaty and pledge their ships and service to the faction where destroyed property comes with a severe penalty but not aggression? What penalty would be sufficient? Or should there not be one?
I notice that ships belonging to the same faction, AI or the players, don't retaliate in case of friendly fire. Case in point, if the player decide to test the freshly buffed main gun of the Asgard and did not check if any of his destroyers are in the way :oops: the other destroyers in the fleet don't go...that our friends you kill, you sadistic SoB :evil: The same with the factions ships, when an argon Behemoth shot another argon Behemoth while trying to get the Xenon M, the two don't start pew pew each other.

So, I see an dialog option like...Offer to assist against....split, xenon, HOP...affirmative. Message: Now your assets in the sector have "ally" status, meaning that the ally assets will not retaliate in case of friendly fire. Warning! Orders to atack allied assets or if the main weapons of a player piloted ship cause destruction of an ally asset, this condition will be revoked.
So, no retaliation, even in case of ships destroyed as a result of friendly fire, as the ships will act like belonging to the same faction. And if Nannok's theory of the game knowing who's naughty and who's nice, is true, meaning the game knowing what ship target what, is a mechanic that would be dificult for the player to abuse.

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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by cornpopped » Tue, 7. Dec 21, 20:34

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Exitialis101
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Exitialis101 » Tue, 7. Dec 21, 21:19

I've asked a dev about this, so far no response. Maybe they are having an internal discussion about it? Either way, the mod is a life saver for now, just hope it will remain updated through the versions of the game.
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by Exitialis101 » Fri, 10. Dec 21, 08:43

Sorry for double posting, but I saw this in the new patch notes:
Fixed accidental friendly fire from turrets on player ship being treated as intentional.
Great step in the right direction I think!

Edit: Whops, that was from another patch.
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Re: Player Fleet helping Faction Fleet - Still impossible

Post by phrozen1 » Sat, 11. Dec 21, 21:06

Exitialis101 wrote:
Fri, 10. Dec 21, 08:43
Fixed accidental friendly fire from turrets on player ship being treated as intentional.
Great step in the right direction I think!

Edit: Whops, that was from another patch.
I must say i never noticed a difference. :gruebel:

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