'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 21. Nov 21, 19:31

flywlyx wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 08:22
They are pretty good at keeping distance since 4.1.
But if it is a player destroyer, I think it needs 3 stars pilot to act smart.
Tell that to my 4 star Syn which decided to fly into the kill zone of a Xenon Defence Station... In 4.10 none of the destroyers maintain a safe distance, especially after they try to reposition.
LameFox wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 08:58
I am pretty sure the marines still die in the pods until they have breached (or maybe begun to breach?) the hull. So at high health like this it wouldn't be doomed if anything was there to shoot them. Pods are super weak. There is a long period where they are quite vulnerable before the stage begins, and if something was picking them off then those who survive to enter the ship (if any) may be repelled by its own marines if thinned out enough.
Once pods contact hull, marines are safe to take as long as they want to cut. They can then take 2 hours to cut the hull and there is nothing the AI can do to stop them. The ship can even turn friendly again while they are cutting.
LameFox wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 08:58
A bit dumb that attacks are always suicidal. I guess maybe it saves needing extra AI scripting to rebuild their fleet or something, but in game it feels pretty silly.
It is likely to try and keep the economy ticking over. If all the factions retreated ships that were about to die they would seldom order new ships.
LameFox wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 08:58
That said clearing whole Xenon sectors is a bug with its OOS performance and should be fixed when 4.2 goes live AFAIK.
Or made worse. Currently the Asgard deals a tiny fraction of its actual low attention damage because it does not point at the target and the damage is only forwards. If they point at the stations they die a lot faster in low attention.

And dealing with an earlier point if they fix the "face tanking" aspect of the Asgard it will then easily clear entire Xenon sectors. XL Main Battery out ranges the Xenon turrets, and deals huge damage. This topic is proof, you can solo entire Xenon sectors with an Asgard. I have done so in mine.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by LameFox » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 00:42

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 19:31
Once pods contact hull, marines are safe to take as long as they want to cut. They can then take 2 hours to cut the hull and there is nothing the AI can do to stop them. The ship can even turn friendly again while they are cutting.
The ship they are on can't stop them but I think others can. I have in the past tried setting up boarding ops 'hands off' to see if the AI settings would work without my intervention, and if the pods were killed after landing but before breaching, then it ended. Unless this was some sort of bug?

Things that will target them seem to include: laser towers, defence drones, passing fighters that get involved, and the turrets on other ships flying nearby (even traders passing but not joining the fight will fire at them).
Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 19:31
It is likely to try and keep the economy ticking over. If all the factions retreated ships that were about to die they would seldom order new ships.
I believe very few would retreat successfully, considering they cannot jump, nor engage travel drive under fire. But I also think this game needs a sink for the economy that is not necessarily combat related, as it creates very silly situations sometimes, like a combination of plot choices making the whole game stagnate.
Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 19:31
Or made worse. Currently the Asgard deals a tiny fraction of its actual low attention damage because it does not point at the target and the damage is only forwards. If they point at the stations they die a lot faster in low attention.

And dealing with an earlier point if they fix the "face tanking" aspect of the Asgard it will then easily clear entire Xenon sectors. XL Main Battery out ranges the Xenon turrets, and deals huge damage. This topic is proof, you can solo entire Xenon sectors with an Asgard. I have done so in mine.
I know in player hands it can, but from what I have seen of their behaviour in-sector the AI is not very good at using them. I often tag along specifically because once the fleet is dead I might be able to borrow one before the Xenon (or whoever it's attacking) get to kill it.

Against stations for instance, the AI pilots will happy lean on the trigger of those L class weapons it has, which I always put on another fire group so my own captains won't use them, because of how badly they harm the XL weapon's recharge. Terrans also seem to suffer from a paradoxical situation where the "best" weapon loadout for their L ships is actually the absolutely least useful one because of how costly their beam turrets are.

Then again, everyone seems to have different results with Xenon. I suppose if they have the resources to send more ships, it will die IS, but if not, it will eventually grind things away even with those guns.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:50

LameFox wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 00:42
The ship they are on can't stop them but I think others can. I have in the past tried setting up boarding ops 'hands off' to see if the AI settings would work without my intervention, and if the pods were killed after landing but before breaching, then it ended. Unless this was some sort of bug?
Sounds like a bug. As the pods disappear the instant they contact the target ships's hull. Although honestly I have not tried shooting up the pod remains or boarded in 4.10 (last time was 4.00).
LameFox wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 00:42
I believe very few would retreat successfully, considering they cannot jump, nor engage travel drive under fire. But I also think this game needs a sink for the economy that is not necessarily combat related, as it creates very silly situations sometimes, like a combination of plot choices making the whole game stagnate.
There are trade stations and terraforming projects for that.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by LameFox » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:58

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:50
Sounds like a bug. As the pods disappear the instant they contact the target ships's hull. Although honestly I have not tried shooting up the pod remains or boarded in 4.10 (last time was 4.00).
I have never seen pods vanish on contact when boarding in any version of this game. :o If they are bugged it must be very consistent. Even after the marines have left the pods, they are still there and destructible, and only despawn later.
Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:50
There are trade stations and terraforming projects for that.
Trade stations and things like piracy don't really seem to be enough to keep it afloat when creating a peaceful universe.

Terraforming I have not tried, because even though I do not rush to end all my enemies as the OP did, there is no challenge that remains in the game once I have production sufficient to terraform. At that point there is no reason for me to continue so I start over.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 03:10

LameFox wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:58
Trade stations and things like piracy don't really seem to be enough to keep it afloat when creating a peaceful universe.
The Terran trade stations consume hundreds of millions worth of production per hour. It might not be ship building but you can still make a ton of money selling to trade stations.
LameFox wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 02:58
Terraforming I have not tried, because even though I do not rush to end all my enemies as the OP did, there is no challenge that remains in the game once I have production sufficient to terraform. At that point there is no reason for me to continue so I start over.
Terraforming offers repeat projects where based on the planet's current population (which you control and can grow), you send down some huge amount of resources and they pay you some large sum of money.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Slashman » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 03:26

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 19:31

Or made worse. Currently the Asgard deals a tiny fraction of its actual low attention damage because it does not point at the target and the damage is only forwards. If they point at the stations they die a lot faster in low attention.

And dealing with an earlier point if they fix the "face tanking" aspect of the Asgard it will then easily clear entire Xenon sectors. XL Main Battery out ranges the Xenon turrets, and deals huge damage. This topic is proof, you can solo entire Xenon sectors with an Asgard. I have done so in mine.
Does facing actually make a difference in low attention? I have never heard of facing mattering in low attention.
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Re: 'FIGHT' Here is a game report on how quick the Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by S!rAssassin » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 09:23

flywlyx wrote:
Sat, 20. Nov 21, 21:09
Xenon stations' problem is not only location, the biggest weakness is turret range
...and without missiles!

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 11:16

Slashman wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 03:26
Does facing actually make a difference in low attention? I have never heard of facing mattering in low attention.
Yes it does. Damage is broken down by direction.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Slashman » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 14:48

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 11:16
Slashman wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 03:26
Does facing actually make a difference in low attention? I have never heard of facing mattering in low attention.
Yes it does. Damage is broken down by direction.
Huh...that's interesting...I thought the point of low attention combat was to remove any physics or directional consideration. I would really like to see how low attention is actually broken down...
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 16:04

Slashman wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 14:48
Huh...that's interesting...I thought the point of low attention combat was to remove any physics or directional consideration. I would really like to see how low attention is actually broken down...
It is my understanding that damage is broken down to 6 directions (forward, backwards, left, right, up and down). Guns are forward only. Turrets it is based on the arc of the turret so can apply to multiple directions. You can see a summary of these damages in the information tab of a ship. Something like an Asgard will have 4k in all directions due to turrets, and some huge number like 400,000 MW forward due to XL main battery with an exceptional mod applied to it.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Slashman » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 17:09

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 16:04
Slashman wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 14:48
Huh...that's interesting...I thought the point of low attention combat was to remove any physics or directional consideration. I would really like to see how low attention is actually broken down...
It is my understanding that damage is broken down to 6 directions (forward, backwards, left, right, up and down). Guns are forward only. Turrets it is based on the arc of the turret so can apply to multiple directions. You can see a summary of these damages in the information tab of a ship. Something like an Asgard will have 4k in all directions due to turrets, and some huge number like 400,000 MW forward due to XL main battery with an exceptional mod applied to it.
Ah I see! Good to know.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by KextV8 » Mon, 22. Nov 21, 17:29

Sirus5 wrote:
Sun, 21. Nov 21, 12:17

in getting my marines to the right level etc.
You dont really need to level the marines. Just use more of them. Ive never bothered leveling marines up and have captured every ship in the game that I could. Sometimes you just have to send in multiple tries with crappy cheap marines. But that's still less effort than training them up.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Omni-Orb » Wed, 1. Dec 21, 20:16

I was hoping to get answers from Egosoft on combat difficulty overall.
And i didnt really like where this thread went with the usual discussion about weapon ranges and AI.
Maybe i made the post too long.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Rastuasi » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 00:19

PhotonPulse wrote:
Wed, 1. Dec 21, 20:16
I was hoping to get answers from Egosoft on combat difficulty overall.
And i didnt really like where this thread went with the usual discussion about weapon ranges and AI.
Maybe i made the post too long.
The issue you're going to get with this is that there's always the other side. There are plenty who claim that the xenon are too strong and that they wipe the universe too easily. You'll find it really hard for any of the Egosoft to mention anything on this as it's a hot topic that no one agrees on. That's why they went for the middle and leave the rest up to mods. There are mods that make the xenon harder or even outright remove them.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by alt3rn1ty » Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:34

Rastuasi wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 00:19
PhotonPulse wrote:
Wed, 1. Dec 21, 20:16
I was hoping to get answers from Egosoft on combat difficulty overall.
And i didnt really like where this thread went with the usual discussion about weapon ranges and AI.
Maybe i made the post too long.
The issue you're going to get with this is that there's always the other side. There are plenty who claim that the xenon are too strong and that they wipe the universe too easily. You'll find it really hard for any of the Egosoft to mention anything on this as it's a hot topic that no one agrees on. That's why they went for the middle and leave the rest up to mods. There are mods that make the xenon harder or even outright remove them.
Yep I'm one, with my play style it took me about a year to get to the point where I could wipe out Xenon, by which time they had dug in deep, conquered a frightening amount of sectors threatening my trade routes being cut off which was my kick up the arse to do something about them. Took a long time to eradicate them, they still persist in trying to exist. But then I don't go boarding Asgards (which were not a thing when I started current playthrough pre-CoH), built my own eventually.

Edit : Forgot to mention in my case NPC factions were slowly but surely losing ground to the Xenon, I was hoping before I built up my economy (hampered by performance balancing on a laptop which can't handle having a player with lots of stations / fleets) that they would be able to hold their own but eventually I had to switch to Xenon extinction being my main priority and economy build up to support that cause was the critical route to enable that campaign. When Split Vendetta came along, getting Blueprints for Rattlesnakes became desirable, used these personally and AI in small fleets to steadily push back the tide. When CoH came along the Asgards were extremely helpful, especially when used personally, but upsetting the Terrans and grabbing their property was not an option for my overall plans, so again building rep and getting blueprints to build them became a side track to finally squishing Xenon.

If I were playing just the vanilla X4 Foundations with no Split Vendetta or Cradle of Humanity I don't have any real idea how long it would take. With my play style probably about the same amount of time.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Omni-Orb » Sat, 4. Dec 21, 18:08

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Fri, 3. Dec 21, 10:34
When CoH came along the Asgards were extremely helpful, especially when used personally, but upsetting the Terrans and grabbing their property was not an option for my overall plans, so again building rep and getting blueprints to build them became a side track to finally squishing Xenon.
Asgards are pretty much a gamebreaker when it comes to combat. I recently tried for the first time to do trading and station building with a terran start, and in 3 days played i was building asgards really quick and had 4 billion credits, and i guess if i wanted to the combat part of the game would be too easy by then with a fleet of 10 or more asgards. It didnt take me a year of gametime it took me a few days and a bit of SETA.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by alt3rn1ty » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 12:05

PhotonPulse wrote:
Sat, 4. Dec 21, 18:08
~ It didnt take me a year of gametime it took me a few days and a bit of SETA.
Yeah that's something else I can't use, SETA being too fast in this game (and not having any settings to adjust it) causes too much script lag on my machine, which further causes random ship losses I would not otherwise experience in normal game time, and other problems with trading that I would not experience without SETA upsetting what is a bit of a balancing act for my games economy and amount of ships / stations I can allow myself without affecting the games performance.
In my experience the Xenon are aggressive enough to be a major concern versus what I can produce in response, in normal game time, and without using third party mods. So ideas of upping the Xenon's aggressiveness as alluded to in these topics is really a bad idea for players in my situation and how the game has progressed.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Omni-Orb » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 13:35

alt3rn1ty wrote:
Sun, 5. Dec 21, 12:05
So ideas of upping the Xenon's aggressiveness as alluded to in these topics is really a bad idea for players in my situation and how the game has progressed.
They dont need to be more agressive, just more difficult to detroy. As it is now, i can with a single asgard destroy all the xenon in the universe, go behind enemy lines and destroy their ship production. If anything they should have bigger fleets and focus more on defending their own sectors.
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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by capitalduty » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 13:57

PhotonPulse wrote:
Fri, 19. Nov 21, 19:25
""
You are no supposed to board Asgards with rookie marines...something went wrong there, also I can imagine terran retaliation to this action to be massive for a beginner player.

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Re: 'FIGHT': This is how quick all Xenon can be destroyed.

Post by Omni-Orb » Sun, 5. Dec 21, 14:46

capitalduty wrote:
Sun, 5. Dec 21, 13:57
You are no supposed to board Asgards with rookie marines...something went wrong there, also I can imagine terran retaliation to this action to be massive for a beginner player.
Actually im not sure why it is this way however it doesnt decrease reputation with terrans. If all we do is board something without firing on it then we take no reputation loss.
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