v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ideas)

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TheRealPegasusJF
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v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ideas)

Post by TheRealPegasusJF » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 02:56

Forgive me if this is beating a dead horse, and I admit I saw another thread that was similar but the subject was not as focused as I would like. Let me tell you about the two games (the only games I've played) I had before/after the general Xenon nerf. If you wish to get to the point just go to (end of story)

(story)
I started a came when this game first game out, and a new one whe COH came out. The differences were astonishing.

Early game: The Xenon made serious inroads, conquering Ianamus Zura VII then VI, sizable invasion attempts in Hatikvah's Choice I, conquering Family Tkr, and finally almost wiped out the Zyarth Patriarch home works (attacking Open Market). The Teladi ultimately managed to retake Inanamus Zura VI, the Zyarth retook some sectors. I managed to take care of Family Tkr, and made it my own sector. Basically, sometimes fighting K's off in Hatikvah's choice I in a Behemoth was a challenge, and ultimately I managed the situation by building defence stations at hatikvah's and Open Market. One interesting note, the Holy Order always seems to have a field day against the Xenon in the Faulty Logic string of sectors in both games. I don't begrude that, makes them more of a challenge.

More recent COH game: Greatly enjoying the Terran additions, but the Xenon in this game have been a huge disappointment. They to my knowledge haven't flipped a single sector (maybe a border sector in Zyarth space flipped). Once the Terrans sent their Yaki kill fleet, both Tharka's Crusade and Matrix 79b sectors are basically empty of large ships. It hasn't been a deal breaker as I continue to play this game every now and then, but I haven't noticed any real movement since then.
(end of story)

Now, I understand there is a substantial number of players the would rather not be bothered with the Xenon. I grant that is fair enough, and I know there are mods that may help satiate our battlelust. However, my understanding mods can affect the MP aspects of our game as well as Steam achievements. That has made me reluctant to use them. The good news is I expect the foundation is already built: the new game customization options. I believe the difficulty of the Xenon could be reduced to a slider, or maybe with a few related options so the Xenon will again pose a credible (or overwhelming if one likes) threat again. On the flip side, it could be reduced or even removed if one wishes. Perhaps for the higher end you can put in a calculator on how much Xenon one's computer could reliably stand.

Finally, I think it would be good for Egosoft to put in the option of some serious Xenon/Khaak based end game content for advanced players. In my first game, I had at least 3 (maybe up to 5) major fleets with several destroyers escorting a carrier. I would really like something to put those fleets to the test. There was this mod I looked at (Xenon Awaking) on steam that IIRC sent in fleets as the player (or time) progresses. I like the idea but this blurb made me decline using it:

"The turrets of the argon, antigone, paranid, holyorder, trinity, and teladi aircraft carriers and destroyers were adjusted to be close to the split aircraft carriers and destroyers."

This I strongly disaggree with. IMHO the Xenon are well balanced as is, outside of introducing a new ship with better capabilities there should be no changes. In my mind, Xenon difficult show be dependent in the numbers they can deploy, which fits their "insane rogue AI" backstory quite well. As is, a new player is just able with a single destroyer (save the Rattlesnake and maybe the Oddy) take on a single K. To be concise: I would be very happy to face a horde of Xenon when I have the resources to take them.

Well, that's it. The end game idea is just a hope but for Xenon customization I beg you Egosoft, please implement this into the main game as soon as possible.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 04:03

Plot Twist...

In 4.20 beta 2 the Xenons seem to be back as 3.30 :xenon: :xenon: :xenon:

It is not possible to make X4 more difficult by using numbers. There would be too many things to balance...
Instead it is much easier to do it through gameplay.

I created two custom starts that completely transform the game. One of these is vanilla and can be used for MP.

Try to have a look ;)

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Ragnos28 » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 10:39

-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 04:03
Plot Twist...

In 4.20 beta 2 the Xenons seem to be back as 3.30 :xenon: :xenon: :xenon:
One can only hope :roll:

Meanwhile, my fleet is inbound to sector Matrix #451 to kill the invincible intervention Asgard that the AI has no chance of killing it :doh: I just hope that my xenon don't go extinct by the time 4.2 launch :cry:

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 10:51

-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 04:03
Plot Twist...

In 4.20 beta 2 the Xenons seem to be back as 3.30 :xenon: :xenon: :xenon:
Do you need a new game start to notice the differences? I still witness tons of turretless K floating everywhere.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 10:39
Meanwhile, my fleet is inbound to sector Matrix #451 to kill the invincible intervention Asgard that the AI has no chance of killing it :doh: I just hope that my xenon don't go extinct by the time 4.2 launch :cry:
You can dock a builder to TER shipyard to chock their production of XL ships.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 11:47

flywlyx wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 10:51
-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 04:03
Plot Twist...

In 4.20 beta 2 the Xenons seem to be back as 3.30 :xenon: :xenon: :xenon:
Do you need a new game start to notice the differences? I still witness tons of turretless K floating everywhere.
I used about 30 minutes of SETA (actual 4 or 5 hours) to see some Xenon K take over a station they were previously attacking and couldn't destroy.
It appears that the Xenon Ks have managed to repair their weapons and have firepower again.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 22:30

TheRealPegasusJF wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 02:56
... my understanding mods can affect the MP aspects of our game as well as Steam achievements. That has made me reluctant to use them. The good news is I expect the foundation is already built: the new game customization options. I believe the difficulty of the Xenon could be reduced to a slider, or maybe with a few related options so the Xenon will again pose a credible (or overwhelming if one likes) threat again.
Lets imagine that there is MP and slider. I send my Goner Ranger to your Universe. Rangers are unarmed preachers, which roam safely in my Xenon-free Universe. You, on the other hand, have cranked the slider to eleven. The Ranger can barely fit into cracks between all the Xenon that you are having fun with. Is that really "same rules for everyone"?

We both want the "Combat Pro" achievement (even though only one has enemies). You got it before you did blink twice in your new game, because the smorgasbord was well stocked from word go; I have to hunt for months. Which one can feel that they did achieve something?

The game customizations allow you to start with some of what you already have. They don't change the rules. A "slider" definitely changes the rules.


Besides, the lack of numbers is not the problem that Xenon face in 4.10. It is the combat resolution that makes them underdogs. It does not matter if you have thousand ships when they are practically unarmed and as dangerous as single ship. It does not help that Xenon could build thousand ships ("jobs"), if all their transports are already dead and all wharfs out of resources. No resources to build transports => no transports => no resources to build transports. Once you are in antlion's pit, you can't climb.


The economy is around destruction of assets (ships and stations). Conflicts, often with Xenon, consume assets. They are replaced with resources. If you reduce conflicts, then you reduce consumption. Stocks fill and there is no need to produce more resources. For player that means less/no place to sell to; less income. You do need credits (and resources) for building stations and ships, don't you?

In other words, no Xenon is bad for player business.

If NPC factions can destroy stations and "flip" sectors, then weaker factions are reduced to cinder and again market for player shrinks. If that steamrolling faction is Xenon, even more so, and player has to fight.

Ideally, you want Xenon that can kill ships with ease, but not spread fast. That should maximize profitsss without huge risk to your assets.

We'll see how the next release adjusts the dynamics. :goner:
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by grapedog » Thu, 18. Nov 21, 23:20

I started a new modded game a week ago, with XR ship pack and reactive factions being the main changes... even before the patch, the xenon were troublesome. Now they're an outright scourge.... the entire NW is xenon now, and ZYA is in serious trouble. I don't want to save them, as im ANT in this playthrough... but i think im gonna have to help them hold the line. The xenon over the first 24 hours didn't lose a single sector.... but rhey're pushing hard now, and own a bunch they shouldn't.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 05:07

-=SiR KiLLaLoT=- wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 11:47
I used about 30 minutes of SETA (actual 4 or 5 hours) to see some Xenon K take over a station they were previously attacking and couldn't destroy.
It appears that the Xenon Ks have managed to repair their weapons and have firepower again.
True, it takes me 2 days to see significant differences, I choked all the races and Xenon is coming back slowly.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by LameFox » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 05:28

jlehtone wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 22:30
The game customizations allow you to start with some of what you already have. They don't change the rules. A "slider" definitely changes the rules.
They have already an established way to solve this, if they are worried about MP: simply add it to the creative start that is marked 'modified'. Although I am not yet sure whether that even matters. Have they said that in the future what happens to your venture ships will be related to how they are treated in others' games? Or do they simply continue to appear as flavour while the outcome of the mission is its own thing?

Personally, whatever the settings are, I find it hard to believe any will come back alive, if they really need to succeed in someone else's game world...
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 20. Nov 21, 11:02

LameFox wrote:
Sat, 20. Nov 21, 05:28
They have already an established way to solve this, if they are worried about MP: simply add it to the creative start that is marked 'modified'.
It has been possible for players to modify their game since 1.0. The OP does not want to mod.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by flywlyx » Sun, 21. Nov 21, 08:39

jlehtone wrote:
Thu, 18. Nov 21, 22:30

Lets imagine that there is MP and slider. I send my Goner Ranger to your Universe. Rangers are unarmed preachers, which roam safely in my Xenon-free Universe. You, on the other hand, have cranked the slider to eleven. The Ranger can barely fit into cracks between all the Xenon that you are having fun with. Is that really "same rules for everyone"?
I don't think MP works that way, the ship sent to another universe doesn't really serve a purpose.
And from my point of view, the nightmare universe is an excellent feature for multiverse. If every universe is the same, why do we even need a multiverse?

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Biggtex » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 02:45

Nah no sliders, please.

Just turn of CoH.

Hopefully 4.2 bug smashing makes the xenon smashing not so easy.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Omni-Orb » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 03:52

I feel having people with different difficulty options will hinder Egosoft from making a better game.
The real issue here is that the asgard was added sortof "too early" without any real balanced counters from the other races.
And not only that, the intervention corps asgard is simply too strong of an attack on a scattered xenon race which has a limited ship capacity randomly divided on all their sectors. I feel that a way to fix it would be to have a unique ship capacity limit for each xenon cluster or for each xenon shipyard/wharf.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Imperial Good » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:04

Honestly I think X4 needs a sort of dynamic difficulty mechanic. If the player ignores the Xenon then Xenon activity is reduced or kept only near/in Xenon sectors, with the odd raiding party to remind them the Xenon do exists. If the player goes on a crusade to destroy all Xenon in the universe then the Xenon start to majorly up their game in response, with more production, larger fleet limits and trying to purge entire regions of the universe of life. In such a mode fleets with multiple Is might start to appear, providing the player with maximum challenge.

This would offer players a passive way to tailor their experience just by playing. The best part is it would not lock them down to one style of play once choosen, but allow them to change based on how they feel. If they start to ignore the Xenon after purging a few sectors of them, the Xenon eventually calm down and contract back to their more passive state.

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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Omni-Orb » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:22

Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:04
Honestly I think X4 needs a sort of dynamic difficulty mechanic.
Its a very good idea and should surely become one of many parts in the difficulty system.
However xenon have many clusters right now and if we destroy a cluster its really difficult if not impossible for them to retake the cluster since they have to travel across many hostile sectors. Im not sure if they even try to. The fact that they have many clusters makes them weaker, even though its good because they cover a larger territory that way. However i feel they should have some way of traveling to different clusters without traversing hostile sectors, even if im pretty sure that can also be a bad idea.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by LameFox » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:33

PhotonPulse wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:22
However xenon have many clusters right now and if we destroy a cluster its really difficult if not impossible for them to retake the cluster since they have to travel across many hostile sectors. Im not sure if they even try to. The fact that they have many clusters makes them weaker, even though its good because they cover a larger territory that way. However i feel they should have some way of traveling to different clusters without traversing hostile sectors, even if im pretty sure that can also be a bad idea.
If they lose one does it allow them to strengthen the others? Or are they each capped separately? I always thought they'd just be able to expand elsewhere.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by Omni-Orb » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:56

LameFox wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:33
If they lose one does it allow them to strengthen the others? Or are they each capped separately? I always thought they'd just be able to expand elsewhere.
They have a set amount of total ships that can exist, So less sectors mens they have that same amount of ships on less sectors. Which means if they have one cluster left then all the total amount of ships they would normally have across the whole universe will be made in that last cluster. Thats how i understand it, please correct me if im wrong.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by LameFox » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 05:01

Ok, that's how I thought it would happen. I think that should mean they won't suffer too much if they lose a cluster though? If anything it might allow the others to strengthen their positions, provided they can acquire the resources for extra ships.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 26. Nov 21, 09:34

LameFox wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:33
If they lose one does it allow them to strengthen the others? Or are they each capped separately?
Yes.

Jobs have two caps; galaxy and per sector. Some jobs hit the per sector limit soon, some not.

Let say that a job has sector=2, galaxy=5 cap.
If faction has only one or two sectors, then they have at most two or four such jobs in total.
If faction has three or more sectors, then they have at most five such jobs in total and no more than two per sector.
If faction's sectors reduce from seven to three, they can keep five jobs. "Strengthen the remaining sectors."
If faction's sectors reduce below three, they "lose some fleet" with each sector.

Let say that another job has sector=6, galaxy=6 cap. The max size of those fleets is same no matter how many sectors faction has.
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Re: v4.3 plea: Xenon aggression/ship count customization options for both warlike and peaceful players (and end game ide

Post by TheRealPegasusJF » Sat, 27. Nov 21, 07:53

Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 26. Nov 21, 04:04
Honestly I think X4 needs a sort of dynamic difficulty mechanic. If the player ignores the Xenon then Xenon activity is reduced or kept only near/in Xenon sectors, with the odd raiding party to remind them the Xenon do exists. If the player goes on a crusade to destroy all Xenon in the universe then the Xenon start to majorly up their game in response, with more production, larger fleet limits and trying to purge entire regions of the universe of life. In such a mode fleets with multiple Is might start to appear, providing the player with maximum challenge.

This would offer players a passive way to tailor their experience just by playing. The best part is it would not lock them down to one style of play once choosen, but allow them to change based on how they feel. If they start to ignore the Xenon after purging a few sectors of them, the Xenon eventually calm down and contract back to their more passive state.
I think this is brilliant and an excellent enhancement to my original idea. I hope you can forward this idea to the devs. That said I believe that even for the more non-aggressive playstyle the Xenon should occasionally knock off a sector or two (perhaps the original owners can take it back not long after).

Thanks for everything for giving you insight to my original idea. I see the flaws I had previously and very much appreciate your input.

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