Subordinate control "launched" changes requested

[Falcrack]

I would like to make a request, that if a wing of ships has the status of "launched" selected, that instead of the ships automatically docking when there are no enemy ships around, that they simply stay launched. I really hate this thing where they are launching, then docking, then launching, then docking all the time. If they have the "launched" status, I would like them to be out in space, not returning to my carrier in the middle of the fight when I want them to be active. This is a big source of headaches in fights with carrier based fighters, where I have to keep babysitting my fighters to keep them from trying to land. The only time I want them to land when "launched" is selected is for automatic resupply and repairs.

[Alan Phipps]

I think that one of the devs once explained that launched/docked just means armed/disarmed in which disarmed means that already-docked ships will not launch when the other docked ships with the same appropriate behaviour that are armed would do so. Hence the launched/docked setting only affects the behaviour of already-docked ships and those settings neither force nor prevent actual subordinate docking.

[Falcrack]

I think that one of the devs once explained that launched/docked just means armed/disarmed in which disarmed means that already-docked ships will not launch when the other docked ships with the same appropriate behaviour that are armed would do so. Hence the launched/docked setting only affects the behaviour of already-docked ships and those settings neither force nor prevent actual subordinate docking.

In my experience, launched ships set on intercept are always trying to redock when there are no enemies present. Then an enemy ship comes into range, but they are still stuck on their dock command, forcing me to manually clear their docking command and telling them to go attack the new ships. So I would much rather they never try to dock when they are set on launched, and only try to dock if they are explicitly set to "docked".

[Alan Phipps]

Understood, but that would mean a new pair of user options besides the existing pair of launched/docked renamed to armed/disarmed - so non-trivial.

[Falcrack]

Understood, but that would mean a new pair of user options besides the existing pair of launched/docked renamed to armed/disarmed - so non-trivial.

I don't think it would necessitate new user options. Just make "launched" mean launched. If they are set on launched, they should simply stay launched, and hence armed. If they are set on docked, then they are also disarmed.

[Alan Phipps]

There is still the complication of 4 or more states being required:

Launch straight away and escort carrier until required to do your job or something else.
Launch when set behaviour dictates and do your job then escort carrier (and do not redock nor autorepair/resupply when all seems clear).
Launch when set behaviour dictates and do your job and then redock (and autorepair/resupply) when all seems clear.
Do not launch under any circumstances.
Dock now.

[GCU Grey Area]

Not too keen on this myself. Very much like my fighters to dock at their carriers between waves, so would not like that to be changed. Would not be opposed however to an additional 'stay launched' setting (though doubt I'd ever use it in practise). For the moment though would suggest maybe using auxiliaries to deploy fighters (since these lack the auto-dock between waves feature) but often have a decent number of S docks.

[Falcrack]

Not too keen on this myself. Very much like my fighters to dock at their carriers between waves, so would not like that to be changed. Would not be opposed however to an additional 'stay launched' setting (though doubt I'd ever use it in practise). For the moment though would suggest maybe using auxiliaries to deploy fighters (since these lack the auto-dock between waves feature) but often have a decent number of S docks.

May I ask, why do you like your fighters set on launch to dock between waves? In my experience, this just leads to a large number of problems, mostly with fighters being stuck on docking commands when there are clearly hostile enemy craft present which they should be fighting. If they are in space when a new wave comes, they can respond to the new threats much more quickly than if they are all stuck on the carrier.

And I am not too keen on the idea of having to use auxiliary ships as a substitute for carriers to work around this problem.

[GCU Grey Area]

May I ask, why do you like your fighters set on launch to dock between waves?

Tend to specialise my fighters for particular roles - e.g. slow, heavily shielded fighters as Attack wings to use against capitals & fast, nimble fighters I use as Interceptors. They're more or less useless if roles are reversed so it's fairly critical that they dock when there are no suitable targets around, otherwise they just get torn apart by enemies for which they're are poorly equipped. Carrier's auto-dock feature mostly works fairly well for this (main exception is Raptor which has a poor design for efficient deployment & retrieval of fighters).

[LameFox]

If added options are an issue, maybe fighters with certain roles could have their dock order overridden by the carrier if it detects a new hostile nearby. I have wondered about this in the past, having seen a split carrier sit near a gate and watch its fighters, slowly trying to dock, get picked off by Xenon because they did not retaliate until launched again.

[Falcrack]

May I ask, why do you like your fighters set on launch to dock between waves?

Tend to specialise my fighters for particular roles - e.g. slow, heavily shielded fighters as Attack wings to use against capitals & fast, nimble fighters I use as Interceptors. They're more or less useless if roles are reversed so it's fairly critical that they dock when there are no suitable targets around, otherwise they just get torn apart by enemies for which they're are poorly equipped. Carrier's auto-dock feature mostly works fairly well for this (main exception is Raptor which has a poor design for efficient deployment & retrieval of fighters).

Why not just keep attack wings set to docked until they are needed vs capitals, and keep interceptors set to launched so they can deal with fighters without redocking all the time? If attack fighters are set to dock, then they will only attack when given explicit commands, then they will redock when that threat is dead.

[GCU Grey Area]

Why not just keep attack wings set to docked until they are needed vs capitals, and keep interceptors set to launched so they can deal with fighters without redocking all the time? If attack fighters are set to dock, then they will only attack when given explicit commands, then they will redock when that threat is dead.

It's mostly the Interceptors I want to keep out of the way when there are no enemy fighters nearby, just enemy capitals. They're much safer stored inside the carrier than stationary outside it, an easy turret shot for any enemy capital which gets close enough. Also a docked Attack fighters approach simply isn't going to work at all for OOS gate defence fleets.

[Falcrack]

Why not just keep attack wings set to docked until they are needed vs capitals, and keep interceptors set to launched so they can deal with fighters without redocking all the time? If attack fighters are set to dock, then they will only attack when given explicit commands, then they will redock when that threat is dead.

It's mostly the Interceptors I want to keep out of the way when there are no enemy fighters nearby, just enemy capitals. They're much safer stored inside the carrier than stationary outside it, an easy turret shot for any enemy capital which gets close enough. Also a docked Attack fighters approach simply isn't going to work at all for OOS gate defence fleets.

So, your concern is that when no fighters are around, you want your interceptors docked so they don't get blapped by capital turrets. Fair enough, but in that case, you could simply quickly switch your interceptor wings to docked status and then they would dock and stay safe.

Most of the time, I find there are other fighters or drones in big fights that I want to be intercepted, so I would keep them launched, but there may be rare cases where it might be best to dock them. But I would still prefer to tell them to dock myself, rather than the game make the assumption as to what I want them to do.

As to OOS attack wings, yes I can see why you would want them to stay launched. I imagine the issue of having them go back to dock when in launched status is mostly useful for OOS situations where you are not paying attention to the fight. In cases where I am in the fight, I want to have as much control over what my fighter wings are doing as possible, but I can see where you would want launched fighters to redock in OOS defense situations.

[snwboardn21]

Understood, but that would mean a new pair of user options besides the existing pair of launched/docked renamed to armed/disarmed - so non-trivial.

That is the behavior of frigates, launched the docked fighters stay launched - docked they dock after completing orders

Just adapt the frigate behavior for carriers?

[Alan Phipps]

@ Falcrack: ".. you could simply quickly switch your interceptor wings to docked status and then they would dock and stay safe..."

That's the issue though, currently setting 'docked' does not make deployed ships dock immediately on the carrier. It just makes them remain permanently docked once a direct order or their behaviour has separately docked them. Hence both launched and docked current options would have to be split apart and/or otherwise tinkered with to do all the things that you want. Even then somebody will want them to act differently from as coded.

@ snwboardn21: Frigates do not repair/resupply their fighters as do carriers though, which can be a playstyle preference.

[GCU Grey Area]

So, your concern is that when no fighters are around, you want your interceptors docked so they don't get blapped by capital turrets. Fair enough, but in that case, you could simply quickly switch your interceptor wings to docked status and then they would dock and stay safe.

Most of the time, I find there are other fighters or drones in big fights that I want to be intercepted, so I would keep them launched, but there may be rare cases where it might be best to dock them. But I would still prefer to tell them to dock myself, rather than the game make the assumption as to what I want them to do.

As to OOS attack wings, yes I can see why you would want them to stay launched. I imagine the issue of having them go back to dock when in launched status is mostly useful for OOS situations where you are not paying attention to the fight. In cases where I am in the fight, I want to have as much control over what my fighter wings are doing as possible, but I can see where you would want launched fighters to redock in OOS defense situations.

Not keen on that much micro-management in battles. Prefer to play an active role in the battle myself, rather than spend too much time giving orders on the map. To automate battles as much as possible I generally have my fleet command carriers running Protect Position default behaviour, with destroyers & around 1/3 of their fighters set to Attack & remaining fighters set to Intercept (I use the same setup for OOS gate defence fleets). As soon as enemies enter their operational zones appropriate ships are dispatched to deal with the threat, then they return & dock (or resume formation in the case of destroyers). Having to constantly monitor the map & choose which wings should be docked & which should be launched just doesn't sound as much fun as flying around blowing enemy ships to bits.

[Manawydn]

So, your concern is that when no fighters are around, you want your interceptors docked so they don't get blapped by capital turrets. Fair enough, but in that case, you could simply quickly switch your interceptor wings to docked status and then they would dock and stay safe.

Most of the time, I find there are other fighters or drones in big fights that I want to be intercepted, so I would keep them launched, but there may be rare cases where it might be best to dock them. But I would still prefer to tell them to dock myself, rather than the game make the assumption as to what I want them to do.

As to OOS attack wings, yes I can see why you would want them to stay launched. I imagine the issue of having them go back to dock when in launched status is mostly useful for OOS situations where you are not paying attention to the fight. In cases where I am in the fight, I want to have as much control over what my fighter wings are doing as possible, but I can see where you would want launched fighters to redock in OOS defense situations.

So what do you do when you got like 5 or 6 fleets, and need to make some adjustments then?

Would you rather have
A: A "reactive docking" type of situation where the Fleet Lead can assess the threat and decide whether or not it needs to release it's interceptors, and brings them back home to dock when task is complete

or

B: A single-command like situation that you need to micromanage each and every single time for each an every single fleet?

C: (And please pick C) -Both. Why both? Because then you get to decide if you want your subordinate group or fleet to be more restricted with it's abilities, or more liberal with them. We need a fleet template and management system that lets the players themselves make that choice instead of us asking devs to implement this one or that one. Give us the rulebook and let us make the rules. All rules are contained within the book. Rules are based on priority, not exclusivity. You can still make rules that are exclusive, because exclusivity can also be the only priority, and you will not be capable of making or enacting any rules that are incompatible with the book. Problem solved, ideally. Putting it in to code is the hard part