The best ship?

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S!rAssassin
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Re: The best ship?

Post by S!rAssassin » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 07:30

PhotonPulse wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 01:58
The regular dragon corvette cause it can hold 40 missiles which the dragon corvette cannot. Then install 6 torpedo launchers and cruise with travel drive on towards Xenon Ks launching 6 torpedos at a time while only just avoid hitting the K with the ship and destroying them on a few flybys without taking damage.
Have bombarded K with Dragon in v.2.x and spend more 50 heavy torpedoes on it. Have get disappoint... Expensive, not effective...

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 08:46

jlehtone wrote:
Mon, 22. Nov 21, 20:26
What is "better" then, the one that does not die as often or the one that can be replaced without any sweat?

What ship is best .. to kill? (The unarmed Boron Dolphin is off the table.)
The way I see it, at least for the "big boys", best ship is one that, no matter the threat, does not have to turn tail or wait for reinforcements.
Case scenario...you meet 1 I + 4 K's + 20-30 P/M escorts. Ship type - Carrier. I like the Collosus, good aesthetic, true carrier, launch fighter escort fast. Can it handle the before mention combat scenario? Not really, most of my 40 Eclipse will melt just from dealing with the K's, let alone the I. Even if you put torpedoes launchers on some Eclipses, they will be turn to shreads by the S/M escorts.
Now, take the Raptor in the same scenario. 100 Chimera, 60 with 1 torpedo launcher, 40 with 1 missile launcher, all with 4 neutron gatling. Forget 1 I, 5 K's, with such a large fighter escort, an entire xenon sector will be purge of all enemy ships (as I have shown).

The result? My Collosus is on patrol near my HQ , chasing Kha'ak, while my Raptor is out there, depopulating Xenon sectors :mrgreen:

Now, I wonder what the best battleship is...I know we just have the one, but still :lol:

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 08:56

grapedog wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 03:40
PhotonPulse wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 01:58
The regular dragon corvette cause it can hold 40 missiles which the dragon corvette cannot. Then install 6 torpedo launchers and cruise with travel drive on towards Xenon Ks launching 6 torpedos at a time while only just avoid hitting the K with the ship and destroying them on a few flybys without taking damage.
Sounds expensive...
Me, with my self sustained shipyard, that has an operating budget of 750kk, fully paid....yeah, expensive :gruebel:

Meh...I know that using torpedoes when you dont have your own wharf/shipyard is crazy expensive, but I could not help having a little giggle at the mention of the word "expensive" :D

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Re: The best ship?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 10:06

Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 08:46
The way I see it, at least for the "big boys", best ship is one that, no matter the threat, does not have to turn tail or wait for reinforcements.
Case scenario...you meet 1 I + 4 K's + 20-30 P/M escorts. Ship type - Carrier. I like the Collosus, good aesthetic, true carrier, launch fighter escort fast. Can it handle the before mention combat scenario? Not really, most of my 40 Eclipse will melt just from dealing with the K's, let alone the I. Even if you put torpedoes launchers on some Eclipses, they will be turn to shreads by the S/M escorts.
Now, take the Raptor in the same scenario. 100 Chimera, 60 with 1 torpedo launcher, 40 with 1 missile launcher, all with 4 neutron gatling. Forget 1 I, 5 K's, with such a large fighter escort, an entire xenon sector will be purge of all enemy ships (as I have shown).

The result? My Collosus is on patrol near my HQ , chasing Kha'ak, while my Raptor is out there, depopulating Xenon sectors :mrgreen:

Now, I wonder what the best battleship is...I know we just have the one, but still :lol:
Not exactly fair comparing a fleet of 40 fighters to one consisting of 100 - the carrier's just the delivery system. That fleet of yours is worth around 400 million, about 50 for the carrier & 350 for the fighters, assuming mk3 engines (or more than double that if you fit mk4's). Can get an awful lot of cheap Argon ships for that sort of money, easily capable of taking on the scenario you propose.

Honestly prefer the Argon option myself - have used Raptors in previous games & frankly the thing's appalling for deploying & retrieving fighters, which is after all the primary purpose of a carrier. Takes around a minute or so for fighters to finally leave the front of the ship after an attack order is given, which is an eternity in a game where enemy ships can approach at several km/second. Furthermore if a second enemy fleet arrives while some of your fighter are still trying to dock it gets very messy very quickly, since Raptor has no dedicated launch tubes (i.e. no alternative means to launch fighters while some of them are still trying to dock).

Have played 2 Split games to date & for my second went to all the trouble of stealing capital ships for my primary fleet from the Argons for use in in-sector battles - just didn't want to put up with all the issues I'd had with the Raptor in my first Split game (particularly disliked losing ships simply due to the lengthy delay before fighter support could finally engage the enemy).

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 11:12

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 10:06
Not exactly fair comparing a fleet of 40 fighters to one consisting of 100 - the carrier's just the delivery system. That fleet of yours is worth around 400 million, about 50 for the carrier & 350 for the fighters, assuming mk3 engines (or more than double that if you fit mk4's). Can get an awful lot of cheap Argon ships for that sort of money, easily capable of taking on the scenario you propose.

Honestly prefer the Argon option myself - have used Raptors in previous games & frankly the thing's appalling for deploying & retrieving fighters, which is after all the primary purpose of a carrier. Takes around a minute or so for fighters to finally leave the front of the ship after an attack order is given, which is an eternity in a game where enemy ships can approach at several km/second. Furthermore if a second enemy fleet arrives while some of your fighter are still trying to dock it gets very messy very quickly, since Raptor has no dedicated launch tubes (i.e. no alternative means to launch fighters while some of them are still trying to dock).

Have played 2 Split games to date & for my second went to all the trouble of stealing capital ships for my primary fleet from the Argons for use in in-sector battles - just didn't want to put up with all the issues I'd had with the Raptor in my first Split game (particularly disliked losing ships simply due to the lengthy delay before fighter support could finally engage the enemy).
I see the amount of fighters a carrier can...carry...in the same way as I see the amount of turetts a capital ship can bring to the battle. The ship with more turetts, win :)

Yes, it is true that the Raptor is slow to launch fighters (compared to other carriers), but when the "swarm" begin to came out of the "mouth", in that moment I know that EVERYTHING in that sector will die :mrgreen:
In my experience, I notice that is easy to resend in the battle the fighters that are trying to land. Select all, remove all orders, atack all targets in range or begin selecting the targets that you want to prioritize.

Since you mention stealing ships...on that regard I like fielding a Raptor in stead of an Asgard, do to the fact that is so damn easy to steal an Asgard. A Raptor?..not so much. Plus, the infrastructure required to build and equip 100 Chimeras, makes it a worthy end game goal. You can't steal a Raptor or 100 Chimeras. :D
I was one of those that build their Asgard...but what "pride" is in the fact that I own one, when others came and say...yeah...a few transports with marines...presto..an Asgard...what is the big deal? :? The way I see it, the Asgard should self destruct like the Valhala in X3 TC, when captured (and no teleport out of the sector when reaching the last stage of capture, either :twisted: ).

To give you an idea of how efective the Raptor is in my game, the combat in the est side of my map is handled by a terran fleet:

1 Asgard
3 Syn + 3 Osaka
2 Tokyo + 40 Kalis each (I recently made the swich, so far so good and always a good idea to use heavy fighters for carriers instead of regular fighters)
1 Aux ship + 40 Jian on defence + 40 torpedo falx on atack (the torpedo boats wing is an fast response in case some I's, K's try to jump on my vulnerable Aux ship, as the destroyers are derpy and terran fighters don't do much in dmg against capitals)

while in my west side of the map, the replacement for that fleet, is:
1 Raptor + 60 torpedo Chimera on atack + 40 Chimera on intercept
That is the whole fleet :mrgreen:

I call my terran fleet the demolition fleet and the other the "exterminate all ships in the sector" fleet, the hammer and the katana (not the ship, mind you :P ).

Edit: after facing the AI controled Raptor in the split plot, I have swich my Raptor loaudout to beam on L turetts and split flak everywere else (yay, now split have flak as well, I can use only split tech, on the Raptor at least). Now, is such a beast when dealing with small fry..it's beautiful..snif :mrgreen:

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Re: The best ship?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 13:01

Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 11:12
Yes, it is true that the Raptor is slow to launch fighters (compared to other carriers), but when the "swarm" begin to came out of the "mouth", in that moment I know that EVERYTHING in that sector will die :mrgreen:
That's just too damn slow for me. Definitely prefer carriers which can do this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfchws4mpgvxb ... 1.jpg?dl=0 the instant they receive an attack order & have my fighters moving off at full speed as soon as they clear the launch tubes. If I need more than one to field the same number of fighters so be it, can afford at least 3 of them for the same cost as a Raptor anyway.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 13:34

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 13:01
Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 11:12
Yes, it is true that the Raptor is slow to launch fighters (compared to other carriers), but when the "swarm" begin to came out of the "mouth", in that moment I know that EVERYTHING in that sector will die :mrgreen:
That's just too damn slow for me. Definitely prefer carriers which can do this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfchws4mpgvxb ... 1.jpg?dl=0 the instant they receive an attack order & have my fighters moving off at full speed as soon as they clear the launch tubes. If I need more than one to field the same number of fighters so be it, can afford 4 of them for the same cost as a Raptor anyway.
When my shipyard has an operating budget of 750 kk, fully paid....I really care about expenses...I lose my sleep over it :lol: And I really don't want to babysit 4 carriers, but only be concern about ONE ship.

Also, I would love to see how an Collosus can handle this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo And take note that I have made a lot of tactical mistakes in that battle, like lossing all my turetts in the first seconds of the engagement or not alowing the fighters to land for repairs and keep taking explosion dmg.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 14:15

Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 13:34
When my shipyard has an operating budget of 750 kk, fully paid....I really care about expenses...I lose my sleep over it :lol: And I really don't want to babysit 4 carriers, but only be concern about ONE ship.

Also, I would love to see how an Collosus can handle this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo And take note that I have made a lot of tactical mistakes in that battle, like lossing all my turetts in the first seconds of the engagement or not alowing the fighters to land for repairs and keep taking explosion dmg.
That's one of the problems with player owned shipyards - essentially they provide access to an infinite fleet at zero cost. For most games I avoid building them & prefer to buy my ships from NPC factions whenever possible.

As for babysitting carriers, I don't tend to. I use them as fleet command vessels, stick them on Protect Position behaviour with a bunch of destroyers & around 1/3 of their fighters on Attack, remaining 2/3 on Intercept, & just leave them to get on with it. Mostly they do alright running on automatic. Sometimes if it gets a bit too hectic I give them explicit orders on what to kill & in what order. However most of the time my main input is just to move the Protect Position zone around the map, to bring them close enough to enemy ships I'd like them to destroy for their default orders to kick in.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 14:35

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 14:15
Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 13:34
When my shipyard has an operating budget of 750 kk, fully paid....I really care about expenses...I lose my sleep over it :lol: And I really don't want to babysit 4 carriers, but only be concern about ONE ship.

Also, I would love to see how an Collosus can handle this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccNBsTc8hzo And take note that I have made a lot of tactical mistakes in that battle, like lossing all my turetts in the first seconds of the engagement or not alowing the fighters to land for repairs and keep taking explosion dmg.
That's one of the problems with player owned shipyards - essentially they provide access to an infinite fleet at zero cost. For most games I avoid building them & prefer to buy my ships from NPC factions whenever possible.

As for babysitting carriers, I don't tend to. I use them as fleet command vessels, stick them on Protect Position behaviour with a bunch of destroyers & around 1/3 of their fighters on Attack, remaining 2/3 on Intercept, & just leave them to get on with it. Mostly they do alright running on automatic. Sometimes if it gets a bit too hectic I give them explicit orders on what to kill & in what order. However most of the time my main input is just to move the Protect Position zone around the map, to bring them close enough to enemy ships I'd like them to destroy for their default orders to kick in.
Yes...a lot of my combat tactics would drastically change if cost would be a factor, to the point that I would eliminate carriers from combat fleets all together, also lose the torpedo boats (that I love to use). Hell, even eliminate fleet combat play...why lose a ship, any ship...when I could just use an Asgard and never lose a ship. Sure it would take a long time to kill the small fry, but is not like they would pose any danger to me.

Hmm...you have fighters on atack with comander and they atack automatically? I give direct orders to wings under atack stance :gruebel: Now if we can have an option to give wings orders like "atack only capital ships", that will make my handeling of torpedo fighters a lot easier :roll:

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Re: The best ship?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 15:25

Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 14:35
Yes...a lot of my combat tactics would drastically change if cost would be a factor, to the point that I would eliminate carriers from combat fleets all together, also lose the torpedo boats (that I love to use). Hell, even eliminate fleet combat play...why lose a ship, any ship...when I could just use an Asgard and never lose a ship. Sure it would take a long time to kill the small fry, but is not like they would pose any danger to me.
Somewhat different perspective here. For me the fear of losing expensive destroyers is the main reason I use fighters & carriers in all my fleets - fighters are a lot cheaper to replace & are a lot easier to manage, repair & resupply if you use carriers to deploy them. They keep enemy capital ships busy shooting at cheap ships (which they mostly miss anyway), while my destroyers bombard them from long range. Constant fire from my fighters also negates travel mode, making it significantly harder for enemy capitals to close with mine.
Hmm...you have fighters on atack with comander and they atack automatically? I give direct orders to wings under atack stance :gruebel: Now if we can have an option to give wings orders like "atack only capital ships", that will make my handeling of torpedo fighters a lot easier :roll:
'Attack Capitals' would certainly be a useful option to have. However for now if there's an important priority target that hasn't been picked up fast enough by default orders I tell my command carrier to kill it & the order cascades down to the destroyers & Attack fighters, meanwhile the Interceptors keep enemy fighters off their backs (my Attack fighters are often woefully equipped to deal with enemy fighters by themselves).

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 17:13

PhotonPulse wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 01:58
The regular dragon corvette cause it can hold 40 missiles which the dragon corvette cannot. Then install 6 torpedo launchers and cruise with travel drive on towards Xenon Ks launching 6 torpedos at a time while only just avoid hitting the K with the ship and destroying them on a few flybys without taking damage.
Or hold down space bar and fly straight at the K with a Syn.

I do agree that such torpedo bombers do work. Just they are ineffective compared to alternatives.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 08:46
The way I see it, at least for the "big boys", best ship is one that, no matter the threat, does not have to turn tail or wait for reinforcements.
Case scenario...you meet 1 I + 4 K's + 20-30 P/M escorts.
Asgard. Just works... One-shots the I, turrets kill one K, one-shots the other K, then goes on to kill 5 more Ks. The S/M ships are of no concern and the immediate capitals are dead you can let your turrets massacre them.

Of course this is all optimal play, but it still works even if you mess up badly and ram the I at 4 km/sec causing you to fail to one-shot it and so end up parked right in front of the gravaton batteries on the I for an extended periond. Had this happen to me yesterday, yet still it was a decisive victory without shields even dropping below 40%. There literally is nothing the Xenon can throw at a player flow Asgard to kill it.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 08:56
Me, with my self sustained shipyard, that has an operating budget of 750kk, fully paid....yeah, expensive
It is expensive on time. With Asgard or Syn you literally travel mode into a K and keep shooting it until it is dead. If the K is under 10 km away it is like 10 seconds to kill them. If they are further it is roughly a minute or so to kill them due to travel mode. No ammo expended, no having to dodge fire, no multiple runs needed, the K straight up dies from the superior damage.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:18

Are you still discussing "best ship", or now in "best fleet" or "best tactics"?

If I get killed in any ship, then no ship is best?

What does prevent one from assigning 100 fighters on one Colossus?
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Re: The best ship?

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:22

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:18
What does prevent one from assigning 100 fighters on one Colossus?
Probably the fact that Collossus can't store 100 fighters?

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Re: The best ship?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:40

Tokyo can store 40 and carry 18 on deck. 58 total. Yet, TER Patrol Tokyo has 65 fighters in its fleet. (Then again, no more than handful seem to ever dock into it.)

The main question is, how would player AI cope with surplus?
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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:41

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:18
Are you still discussing "best ship", or now in "best fleet" or "best tactics"?

If I get killed in any ship, then no ship is best?

What does prevent one from assigning 100 fighters on one Colossus?
Still discussing best ship. The problem with asigning 100 fighters to one Colossus come with the carrier capability to repair ship automatically. Because while you can just send 100 fighters in the hostile xenon sector, after taking some 3-4 explosion dmg in the "face", your fighters will not look so good for future engagements/targets. That is why atm I like the explosion dmg mechanic, even tho I did not like the idea initially, and I like it because that made the carriers pivotal in fighter based engagements and I do love my carrier action :mrgreen:

In conclusion, you do need a Raptor to handle 100 fighters, as far as repairing and launching fighters automatically, is concern.
Last edited by Ragnos28 on Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:55, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:50

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:40
Tokyo can store 40 and carry 18 on deck. 58 total. Yet, TER Patrol Tokyo has 65 fighters in its fleet. (Then again, no more than handful seem to ever dock into it.)

The main question is, how would player AI cope with surplus?
Are you sure? I don't think you can order a fighter to land on your to Tokyo, when 40 fighters are already on board :gruebel: I will try it, but I am fairly sure that I will not be able to do it.

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Re: The best ship?

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 19:05

TER Patrol Tokyo is a NPC ship. To be fair, it has actually only a handful of Gladius on its "groups". Each of those Gladius have their Gladius/Kukri escort wings. Quite different order of battle from player Carriers.

Do such NPC Carrier fleets repair at Carrier, or do they just die? I've mainly seen them die.
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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 19:08

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 15:25
Somewhat different perspective here. For me the fear of losing expensive destroyers is the main reason I use fighters & carriers in all my fleets - fighters are a lot cheaper to replace & are a lot easier to manage, repair & resupply if you use carriers to deploy them. They keep enemy capital ships busy shooting at cheap ships (which they mostly miss anyway), while my destroyers bombard them from long range. Constant fire from my fighters also negates travel mode, making it significantly harder for enemy capitals to close with mine.
Hmm...I only need destroyers for station demolition, even in Asgard lead fleets, as I do not enjoy the dead times of the main battery recharging. For engaging capital ships, my torpedo Chimeras or torpedo boats are more effective and fast to engage (that is why all my fleets, with the exception of the split, have a dedicated torpedo boat wing). By the time the destroyers as much as point their "noses" towards the target, my torpedoes have made the capitals go boom.
Your tactics, with fighters negating travel mode while your destroyers engage capitals is the tactic use by the Xenon, so you are on to something :D That tactic is what make the use of a solo Asgard so frustating, when you want to travel drive towards the next K or I, but you can't, because the mighty Xenon N pew pew you :mrgreen:

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Re: The best ship?

Post by Ragnos28 » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 19:12

jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 19:05
TER Patrol Tokyo is a NPC ship. To be fair, it has actually only a handful of Gladius on its "groups". Each of those Gladius have their Gladius/Kukri escort wings. Quite different order of battle from player Carriers.

Do such NPC Carrier fleets repair at Carrier, or do they just die? I've mainly seen them die.
I don't know if npc carriers repair ships :gruebel: I've seen my damage traders landing on the carriers or aux ships for repairs, when my fleet is in sector, but not sure if the NPC ships do the same with their carriers and aux ships. By the amount of police ships that have 1% hull, I guess they don't :gruebel:

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Re: The best ship?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Nov 21, 19:13

mr.WHO wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:22
jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 23. Nov 21, 18:18
What does prevent one from assigning 100 fighters on one Colossus?
Probably the fact that Collossus can't store 100 fighters?
You can still assign more fighters than it can store. Certainly wouldn't recommend it, in particular it's a bit awkward if you want to move the fleet & there's a significant disparity between the carrier's travel speed & that of the excess fighters, however they can definitely be assigned. They'll receive appropriate orders (e.g. Intercept if valid targets are nearby), whether they've got space to dock or not. They still return for repairs (& presumably to rearm, though did not test that specifically). Only difference is there's always a queue for the docks & if one ship takes off to do something another will dock in it's place. Tested with a Colossus & 64 Eclipses.

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