Help with Tactics

[Karmaticdamage]

Snake can be made to fly in reverse faster then xenon capital ships can fly forward

Only if you are very lucky with as good as perfect rolls. Otherwise they will slightly out speed you while you are in reverse. You can of course drift backwards faster than they can fly but so can most destroyers. That said the Rattlesnake is agile enough to dodge single Is and move to favourable attack positions against multiple Ks.

One snake can kill an infinite number of Ks and Is, because they can't catch you.

Rattlesnake can be overwelmed between S/M ship spam and Xenon capitals using their travel mode to get into melee range. Unlike the Syn, if the Rattlesnake is in melee range it is pretty much dead due to its paper shields. Once had this happen to me before Cradle of Humanity where my high rolled modded Rattlesnake was nearly killed due to a K traveling into it as I was trying to intercept.

Syn is slow and has very few M turrets for flak

But it has significantly more L turrets and 2 extra shields making it considerably more tanky. Where as the Rattlesnake has to be careful not to take too many Gravaton hits, a Syn can fly straight at a K and win without a single point of hull damage.

I've never been overwhelmed when clearing out entire xenon reigons with a solo snake, I've taken on battle groups with 10+ capitals and hundreds of Ms/Ps and didn't take a scratch. I also put slashered argon flak on my snake, so that could be why the fighter clouds pose no threat. Snake shields start weak but they can be boosted up to 170k with terran mk3 shield and 70% shield hp mod, more then enough. All split ships are much better now thanks to terran shields.
Syn has two more L turrets then snake which I wouldn't call significant, but gives up 8 M turrets for it. The extra L turrets aren't going to do much if their being using for fighter defense, Snake doesn't have to sacrifice anti capital dps to defend itself from fighters. The syn is the most specialized and least versatile destroyer in the game, it shines as a capital killer with 8 L plasma, but it is the worst anti fighter platform.
You don't need god rolls to get a snake to go faster in reverse, 20% or better on drag from nanotube mod and 40% forward thrust from nudger will provide the results needed and are not hard to reroll for. Of course you could just turn around and fly forward a little bit if you feel the xenon capitals are getting to close, they won't use their travel drives to get closer to you if you're kiting them at L plasma range.

[Sirus5]

WOW -

So - Love all, 15-0, 15-15.... Deuce.... We have a tennis match going on

Thanks to both of you - some interesting facts are coming out and I am sure
that in fact both of you are right in lots of ways and each reply is well thought
out and valid.

1. Rattlesnake - Faster, more fragile - more capable against lots of fighters
2. Syn - much tankier, can go melee with anything without a scratch.

I salute both the protagonists here as I have gained valuable information from both
and unfortunately as I am not anything like as good as either of these amazing people -
I will have to go get both ships

[Imperial Good]

Soo - Now good sirs, you have put me in a dilemma - I badly want to keep my
Litigious Rodent's IFF as it's so fun, but I also want a Syn - and to get my free Syn
I have to get further in the plot which means no IFF -

IFF? You mean the Yaki camo? Litigious Rodent? You mean the Yaki ship?

I've taken on battle groups with 10+ capitals and hundreds of Ms/Ps and didn't take a scratch.

Never seen 10 Ks/Is at same area. Largest I have seen is 5Ks and 2 Is which were overlapping wings.

The Ps especially wear down the Rattlesnake due to the poor shielding on it and them focusing turrets. If you Pitch chase them they generally cannot hit you but that leaves you vulnerable to Ks and Is who are not trying to orbit you.

Snake shields start weak but they can be boosted up to 170k with terran mk3 shield and 70% shield hp mod, more then enough.

While the Syn can have over twice the shield with 3 times the regen by using balanced shield boost mods. Even single Gravaton turrets do nothing, needing at least 2 constantly firing to start to lower shield.

Syn has two more L turrets then snake which I wouldn't call significant, but gives up 8 M turrets for it.

It has 4 more forward facing L turrets than Rattlesnake. Where as Rattlesnake might get 5 turrets shooting straight (4 from front, 1 at top or bottom of back which is not reliable to aim), the Syn has no issue getting all 8 shooting straight. Well worth losing some weak M turrets for.

M turrets are also pretty weak now. They usually are the first to go when you kill a capital due to the explosion damage. My poor Asguard engineers can attest to this after rebuilding all the M turrets on it hundreds of times as every module killed strips most of them.

The extra L turrets aren't going to do much if their being using for fighter defense, Snake doesn't have to sacrifice anti capital dps to defend itself from fighters.

Snake has to sacrifice battery damage to defend itself from fighter swarms, like all destroyers, as turrets just are that inaccurate. Only the Asguard and Raptor (XL ships) can trade all turrets for good fighter protection due to their huge size creating a wall of fire that covers the inaccuracy.

The syn is the most specialized and least versatile destroyer in the game, it shines as a capital killer with 8 L plasma, but it is the worst anti fighter platform.

Unless you use the main batteries. Its long shape means that the AI love to circle right in front of the main batteries. Can easily solo swarms like that, turrets giving minimal help as usual due to inaccuracy.

You don't need god rolls to get a snake to go faster in reverse, 20% or better on drag from nanotube mod and 40% forward thrust from nudger will provide the results needed and are not hard to reroll for. Of course you could just turn around and fly forward a little bit if you feel the xenon capitals are getting to close, they won't use their travel drives to get closer to you if you're kiting them at L plasma range.

Except the I. Which flies faster than the K and has a huge speed when turning (due to its length).

I used the Rattlesnake a lot. I even have a video where I blow up dozens of Ks/Is with them. It certainly is capable of killing both the K and I. However Syn is such an upgrade from it, and that is using TER only equipment as well. Syn can just fly into a K without a care.

Then you get the Asguard and you realise how trash the Rattlesnake was. 10km kill of K is 2 seconds of beam. Like playing with cheat codes but legitimate unmodified. A single K even struggles to damage the Asguard. Let us not forget it can one shot an I.

1. Rattlesnake - Faster, more fragile - more capable against lots of fighters

It is less capable against lots of fighters due to its low shield regen. 3x the number of shields is huge. A single fighter with Plasma will start to wear down your Rattlesnake shields, as was seen in my video playthrough where a support Rattlesnake was badly damaged by some plot Paranid fighters. Not so much for the Syn, especially since you can afford to use balanced capacity/regen mods.

[Karmaticdamage]

Keep forgetting one thing over and over. Argon M flak with slasher mod installed. It's broken op, it makes fighters irrelevant, that is why the snake is better for solo then the syn. Not because of main guns or L turrets or shields or speed, but because the snake can equip more argon flak then the syn can. The same reason the osaka is better for solo then a syn. Osaka with its two main guns and three L plasma and ten flak is a great solo boat if you need more shields.
Snake can have 4 main guns and 4 L plasma facing forward which will do a lot more dps then syns three guns, while still having 12 flak cannons and 2 L turrets equipped with w/e for fighter defense. Ter L beams along with every other anti fighter L turret are crap. The best of the lot is split L pulse but even it is sub standard when compared to M flak or even M pulse. Maybe get on the horn and get ego to bring back the starburst shockwave cannon so rp terrans too can enjoy op anti fighter weapons.

[Imperial Good]

I used Argon M Flak. Outside of the clear double dipping damage bug (which will hopefully be fixed some day, same reason Blast Mortars obsolete S Plasma guns as they deal double encyclopaedia damage against targets in high attention) they suffer the same problem as other turrets do. They really destroy fighters at maximum range, but anywhere between or outside you might be better off using bolt, which hits surprisingly well now.

ke can have 4 main guns and 4 L plasma facing forward which will do a lot more dps then syns three guns, while still having 12 flak cannons and 2 L turrets equipped with w/e for fighter defense.

The damage difference is not as much as you might think. Not only are Terran batteries higher DPS than Split, but due to there being 3 they cooldown more efficiently. Average damage is pretty close.

Ter L beams along with every other anti fighter L turret are crap.

Tell that to my Slasher TER L Bolt turrets. Murder Ks and fighters no problem. The only signifcant anti-fighter defence my Asguard has and unsurprisingly neither KHK or XEN can overwhelm it. Especially since Ks are dead instantly due to the XL main battery.

They have issues hitting targets on the Syn due to its small profile. However I suspect that might be a bug. Same reason L lasers are not melting S ships like they should due to missing them.

The best of the lot is split L pulse but even it is sub standard when compared to M flak or even M pulse.

TER L pulse is also pretty good. Lower average damage than bolt but at 1200 MJ damage per hit one cannot really complain.

[Sirus5]

Wow - I have started a war of words - OMG I do hope such these two fountains of knowledge
don't tear themselves apart on my account and I have to thank them both for their excellent
knowledge and passion about each ship - reading between the lines I think they have slightly
different styles which suits their particular ship.

I am so grateful for this war of words because it gives me so much information on both sides of the fence.
that I am going to have to have one of each .

@Imperial Good - yes I did mean the Yaki Camo and Yaki Ship - I am about 24 hours in and got those recently.
I have concentrated on getting my HQ to have Claytronics, Hull Parts and things like that - plus getting most
reps up to 20 - Got a couple of Katana, a silly Yaki M6 which had the audacity to attack my Nodan and then
got scared when I got on his tail and he couldn't shake me, got the free Ody - several Hermes, Boa, some Alligators
etc. oh and too many minotaur raiders which keep attacking my things.

Thanks Gentlemen - much appreciated.

[Karmaticdamage]

split vs terran rivalry is as old as X3:TC, they had the best ships in that game too. Wish otas was still around to give us competitive argon ships.

[Sirus5]

OMG - OTAS - I remember Legends home (I remember further back to the Bayamon and capturing the Perseus )

So - @ImperialGood - Sir, thanks for your comments - I am dying to get a Syn and Asguard - but with only about 24 hours stick time...
It just aint possible yet - however, I have it on my ToDo list.

I have just bought a snake - and went and got Nanotube (-23.10 and -23.04 after a few rolls) and Nudger (44.7, -26.46, -25.01)
Giving me -
V(s) - 418
V(acc) - 123
V(boost) - 492
V(trav) - 4391

Am just sending it to swap the L plasma for paranid and the M pulse for Argon Flak, then off to the terrans for some Juicy Mk3 shields.
I don't expect to be able to do much with it yet as I haven't ever piloted a Destroyer before!!! - in all my X games from X-BTF through
X-Tension, X2, X3 and now X4, I have mostly stuck to things like Bayamon, then Spitfire and then Nodan!!! Although I have had the
occasional one in the fleet just used OOS.
This time through I have used mainly Nodan, Asp, Moreya and now Katana. (Young Gun Start).

Thanks again Gentlemen for all the fascinating insights and I will be getting a Syn and Asguard so I can experience the differences
myself one day.

[dtpsprt]

OMG - OTAS - I remember Legends home (I remember further back to the Bayamon and capturing the Perseus )

So - @ImperialGood - Sir, thanks for your comments - I am dying to get a Syn and Asguard - but with only about 24 hours stick time...
It just aint possible yet - however, I have it on my ToDo list.

I have just bought a snake - and went and got Nanotube (-23.10 and -23.04 after a few rolls) and Nudger (44.7, -26.46, -25.01)
Giving me -
V(s) - 418
V(acc) - 123
V(boost) - 492
V(trav) - 4391

Am just sending it to swap the L plasma for paranid and the M pulse for Argon Flak, then off to the terrans for some Juicy Mk3 shields.
I don't expect to be able to do much with it yet as I haven't ever piloted a Destroyer before!!! - in all my X games from X-BTF through
X-Tension, X2, X3 and now X4, I have mostly stuck to things like Bayamon, then Spitfire and then Nodan!!! Although I have had the
occasional one in the fleet just used OOS.
This time through I have used mainly Nodan, Asp, Moreya and now Katana. (Young Gun Start).

Thanks again Gentlemen for all the fascinating insights and I will be getting a Syn and Asguard so I can experience the differences
myself one day.

If you can fill up the Rattlesnake with good Marines you can just capture a Syn, then use it to capture the Asgard!!!

Spoiler

Show

You don't have to shoot at them, just fly really closely, disable your turrets start the boarding action and fly to a safe distance until the boarding is over or even another system. No rep loss!!!!

[Sirus5]

WAIT - WHAT

You mean I can capture without a rep loss -

WOW - okay - so not having done much boarding (most of my playthroughs have been S capturing)...

So - I have - 2* marines (4 of them), 1* marines (about 15) and 20 or 30 with less than 1* (That's JUST not going to do much)
This obviously means getting lots of marines and training them....
Not wanting to lose rep with most factions - I guess it's going to be a case of SCA ships
(Unless anyone has any bright ideas as to how I can train lots of marines in Vanilla any other way)...
Got Boa, Hermes for transport - Katana for getting engines etc...
I would really like an Elephant, but don't want to lose rep - although would FAF be an option.

Thanks @dtpsprt

[dtpsprt]

WAIT - WHAT

You mean I can capture without a rep loss -

WOW - okay - so not having done much boarding (most of my playthroughs have been S capturing)...

So - I have - 2* marines (4 of them), 1* marines (about 15) and 20 or 30 with less than 1* (That's JUST not going to do much)
This obviously means getting lots of marines and training them....
Not wanting to lose rep with most factions - I guess it's going to be a case of SCA ships
(Unless anyone has any bright ideas as to how I can train lots of marines in Vanilla any other way)...
Got Boa, Hermes for transport - Katana for getting engines etc...
I would really like an Elephant, but don't want to lose rep - although would FAF be an option.

Thanks @dtpsprt

SCA Behemoths and Poenix's are a good source of income (the Phoenix) and Destroyers (the Behemoth), also a very good "training ground" for your Marines

Spoiler

Show

You can "check" (scan) Builders near gates, or even better at the time of building (totally stationery) you can always find one with small resistance. Don't let the number of crew fool you, try to "board". If resistance is too much you can choose not to go through with it of course.

EDIT: If you board a ship without firing on it (or at least not destroying any elements) you loose reputation only temporary, especially in the "neutral" sectors (Nopileo's Fortune VI is the best, even Hatikvah's Choice I if necessary) where they don't have any friendly faction stations to send distress drones to...

[Eyeklops]

SCA Behemoths and Poenix's are a good source of income (the Phoenix) and Destroyers (the Behemoth), also a very good "training ground" for your Marines

Spoiler

Show

You can "check" (scan) Builders near gates, or even better at the time of building (totally stationery) you can always find one with small resistance. Don't let the number of crew fool you, try to "board". If resistance is too much you can choose not to go through with it of course.

EDIT: If you board a ship without firing on it (or at least not destroying any elements) you loose reputation only temporary, especially in the "neutral" sectors (Nopileo's Fortune VI is the best, even Hatikvah's Choice I if necessary) where they don't have any friendly faction stations to send distress drones to...

I agree with all of this.

I've stolen a few Asgards with a Shuyaku Vanguard filled to the brim with marines. I think the trade off of 10 million for the Shuyaku & marines was worth getting each Asgard well before I had the funds to build my own XL shipyard. I don't even care if the Shuyaku survives.

Some tips for & information for "flyby" boardings:

• Trying flyby boarding on faster capitals (Rattlesnake) is a lesson in frustration but it can be done. Maneuver your ship to "head them off" and force them to stop and try to go around you. While they are attempting to turn launch the marines and try to keep on the front of their nose. This still isn't foolproof but the best method I've found yet for acquiring Snakes.
• Flyby boarding can take a loooooooong time. Upwards of 20 minutes for a large ship with 100% hull. So long in fact the ship will go back to being friendly while your marines dance through the halls on a murderous rampage.
• Be wary in attempting to board well stocked Terran Tokyo Carriers with lots of missile launchers. I tried to board one 3 times and each time 90%~100% of my boarding pods (200+marines worth) got popped in less than 30 seconds. If you keep an eye out there are times an Intervention Corps Tokyo will come back from an excursion with no missiles left. THIS is the Tokyo you attempt to board.
• If possible, keep an watch for friendly capitals that get in over their head in hostile territory. Let them get beat down to 50% hull and send in the "rescue fleet". By "rescue fleet" I mean the fleet that repels the Xenon and keeps the ship safe while your marines board it and slaughter the crew. Boarding goes much faster at 50% hull. Usually by that point the Xenon have done you the service of stripping off the engines and turrets so when the ship turns hostile toward your "rescue fleet" it can't do anything more than "angry stare" back in an aggressive manner.

[grapedog]

I'm not playing right now, but can the falx hold S ships? Could you just load the Falx up with the fighters and personally fly the Falx through the gate? I know I've done fleet delivery missions before where I just load all the ship onto like a Tokyo and send it where it needs to go.

If I were faced with that mission, and all I had was the abandoned/reclaimed Oddy... i'd just load em all up into the Oddy and travel drive at high speed through the gate. If it were to hit something, with good PAR combat engines, it will outrun most of the big worrisome Xenon ships. And the small ships it cannot outrun, it can kill once it gains some distance on the big ones. Then just unload the mission ships, and send em where they need to go. Then travel drive back out...

Or if you have teleport researched, park all the ships at a friendly station near the dangerous gate they need to go through. Then drive one through at high speed, once it is clear, let the pilot take over, send it way off to a safe middle of nowhere. Teleport to the next ship that needs to go through, fly it through at high speed and have it meet it's buddy. Send the Falx through first, as it is pretty capable of handling itself if it were to run into one of those Encounters sets of Xenon.

[jlehtone]

I'm not playing right now, but can the falx hold S ships?

Falx is a Frigate. They often have a docked Kukri on them. One dock pad, one hangar?

[Sirus5]

Jlehtone - absolutely right (again).

@grapedog - well, I did reload and...

Sending in Falx to distract them - AI controlled - at the area where no Capitals were - just lots of P,M,N
It died quite quickly despite going quite quickly to start off with.

I tried going in fast in a fighter and as suspected in my original post - some M and N followed - P's mostly lost interest and
went back to the gate quite quickly... If there had been just a few P, M and N, the Falx could probably have handled them
but there were too many for one falx.

I ended up taking them through a different sector which worked well as there was only a K guarding the gate and some P inside..
They were easily distracted as there were not many of them.