Attack distances

[builder680]

It's really more than about time that you fixed attack distances for stations. It is ridiculous that I can't trust my destroyers in a fleet of 8 destroyers to maintain distance and not bear-hug a target resulting in unnecessary death of a destroyer. If you have a range advantage, you use it, I don't care if you're a 1 star noob or not. This is basic stuff. Fix it.

Edit: yes, i know there are workarounds. you shouldn't need a workaround for obvious.

Edit 2: my issue is that you can't really use a fleet because every single ship in your fleet will perform the absolute most moronic possible action to get itself killed. from corvettes assigned to "defense" splatting themselves against a station that you are attacking in a destroyer, but it cannot hit you because you are sitting at range (don't care, imma "defend" by attacking), to destroyers ordered to attack with you, but hugging that same station...WHILE ordered to line abreast with you yourself in a destroyer sitting at max range. There is just no way to avoid idiocy.

[waynetarlton]

Yes indeed. Should be fixed.

[Falcrack]

Stations, which are by definition "stationary" ought to outrange mobile destroyers anyways IMO, obviating the need to try to stay out of distance.

But I would balance that by making nerfing station defenses, so that destroyers have a better chance versus stations when they have to get in range and slug it out with their guns.

[dtpsprt]

Stations, which are by definition "stationary" ought to outrange mobile destroyers anyways IMO, obviating the need to try to stay out of distance.

But I would balance that by making nerfing station defenses, so that destroyers have a better chance versus stations when they have to get in range and slug it out with their guns.

No need to nerf anything. Just have the destroyer shoot the station's turrets with it's main guns. It might take a hit or two but any destroyer main gun can destroy a turret with one hit. Then retreat, recharge shields, rinse and repeat.

Oooooops forgot something... If the player does not do this him/herself the (unnecessarily) crappy AI will never be able to do it!!!

[GCU Grey Area]

No need to nerf anything. Just have the destroyer shoot the station's turrets with it's main guns. It might take a hit or two but any destroyer main gun can destroy a turret with one hit. Then retreat, recharge shields, rinse and repeat.

Oooooops forgot something... If the player does not do this him/herself the (unnecessarily) crappy AI will never be able to do it!!!

Don't think destroyers are programmed to even attempt to do that. Fighters are - they caused me no end of problems in my Split game when I was flying a Rattlesnake (due to it's abysmal subsystem shielding). However, from what I can tell, destroyers just aim for the centre of each station module. I'm fine with that by the way, would not want them to shoot at turrets. Would just unnecessarily extend the time it takes for my demolition fleet to destroy stations if they had to eliminate every single turret they can see before they could start shooting at the station itself. Most of the time those turrets are utterly irrelevant anyway, since I use fly to orders to define where my destroyers should shoot from (i.e. outside L Plasma turret range).

[dtpsprt]

No need to nerf anything. Just have the destroyer shoot the station's turrets with it's main guns. It might take a hit or two but any destroyer main gun can destroy a turret with one hit. Then retreat, recharge shields, rinse and repeat.

Oooooops forgot something... If the player does not do this him/herself the (unnecessarily) crappy AI will never be able to do it!!!

Don't think destroyers are programmed to even attempt to do that. Fighters are - they caused me no end of problems in my Split game when I was flying a Rattlesnake (due to it's abysmal subsystem shielding). However, from what I can tell, destroyers just aim for the centre of each station module. I'm fine with that by the way, would not want them to shoot at turrets. Would just unnecessarily extend the time it takes for my demolition fleet to destroy stations if they had to eliminate every single turret they can see before they could start shooting at the station itself. Most of the time those turrets are utterly irrelevant anyway, since I use fly to orders to define where my destroyers should shoot from (i.e. outside L Plasma turret range).

That's why my remark for "crappy AI"... Nevertheless it's a solid military tactic: "Defang" the opponent and then bit the $**t out of him either to submission (not an option in the game) or anihillation. Can you just imagine the "short work" 3-4 Destroyers would have made of a station if they were "free" to close to Medium Turret range? A "special branch" of sorts equipped fully with both L and M Plasma?

[GCU Grey Area]

That's why my remark for "crappy AI"... Nevertheless it's a solid military tactic: "Defang" the opponent and then bit the $**t out of him either to submission (not an option in the game) or anihillation. Can you just imagine the "short work" 3-4 Destroyers would have made of a station if they were "free" to close to Medium Turret range? A "special branch" of sorts equipped fully with both L and M Plasma?

Think it would still take much more time overall if destroyers had to smash every turret first before them could even start doing their main job.
Some stations have rather a lot turrets, e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/npwt9i2ny53l6 ... 1.jpg?dl=0.
I've done many 'destroy the turrets' missions & it invariably takes far, far longer than it would to simply smash the entire station from long range.

[grapedog]

I haven't had issues in a long time with destroyers attacking stations in a suicidal fashion. I just make sure that their medium guns are set to attack fighters only. If you tell your ships to attack everything with every weapon, it's going to try and get close enough to use every weapon. If you tell it only to use it's longer range L weapons against stations, it is much less likely to suicide run into a station. It does still happen on occasion, but much much less often now than it used to in the past, when it was a real issue.

[Malchar]

Like it had been said before, the max firing range, calculated for your destroyers, is the center of the station. I case of xenons statioms, especially the defense station, which have several km span, you may be at range for counter fire, even you are at the so called max range.

[builder680]

I haven't had issues in a long time with destroyers attacking stations in a suicidal fashion. I just make sure that their medium guns are set to attack fighters only. If you tell your ships to attack everything with every weapon, it's going to try and get close enough to use every weapon. If you tell it only to use it's longer range L weapons against stations, it is much less likely to suicide run into a station. It does still happen on occasion, but much much less often now than it used to in the past, when it was a real issue.

This sounds true, but it is not true.

New-built ships with 1 star idiot commanders WILL splat themselves against the station. Because they apparently learned nothing in war college.

[grapedog]

I haven't had issues in a long time with destroyers attacking stations in a suicidal fashion. I just make sure that their medium guns are set to attack fighters only. If you tell your ships to attack everything with every weapon, it's going to try and get close enough to use every weapon. If you tell it only to use it's longer range L weapons against stations, it is much less likely to suicide run into a station. It does still happen on occasion, but much much less often now than it used to in the past, when it was a real issue.

This sounds true, but it is not true.

New-built ships with 1 star idiot commanders WILL splat themselves against the station. Because they apparently learned nothing in war college.

I guess I have better colleges in my universe, like I said earlier, it works exactly how I said it does in my universe. My destroyers don't rush into their death, except on very rare occasions.

Also, and more importantly, you don't spend like 3,000 credits to get them a 1 star seminar? You're going to put them in charge of a 20 million credit destroyer, but won't pay 3,000 credits for a 1 star training seminar?

I can tell you from personal experience, the military doesn't allow you to operate a toaster without sitting through some kind of training course. The minimum I'll give a destroyer captain are the basic 0 and 1 star seminars, and most will get a 2 star seminar as well, since they're ridiculously easy to obtain.

[builder680]

I haven't had issues in a long time with destroyers attacking stations in a suicidal fashion. I just make sure that their medium guns are set to attack fighters only. If you tell your ships to attack everything with every weapon, it's going to try and get close enough to use every weapon. If you tell it only to use it's longer range L weapons against stations, it is much less likely to suicide run into a station. It does still happen on occasion, but much much less often now than it used to in the past, when it was a real issue.

This sounds true, but it is not true.

New-built ships with 1 star idiot commanders WILL splat themselves against the station. Because they apparently learned nothing in war college.

I guess I have better colleges in my universe, like I said earlier, it works exactly how I said it does in my universe. My destroyers don't rush into their death, except on very rare occasions.

Also, and more importantly, you don't spend like 3,000 credits to get them a 1 star seminar? You're going to put them in charge of a 20 million credit destroyer, but won't pay 3,000 credits for a 1 star training seminar?

I can tell you from personal experience, the military doesn't allow you to operate a toaster without sitting through some kind of training course. The minimum I'll give a destroyer captain are the basic 0 and 1 star seminars, and most will get a 2 star seminar as well, since they're ridiculously easy to obtain.

Yes, I get them a seminar. Two(!) sometimes... Yes, they are still buffoons.

[GCU Grey Area]

New-built ships with 1 star idiot commanders WILL splat themselves against the station. Because they apparently learned nothing in war college.

If they're still 1* I don't think they've been anywhere near a war college. They're just a random shipyard employee assigned to fly the ship out of the construction bay (& I barely trust them to do even that). Absolutely no need to keep them on after they've done that one job, when it's so easy to replace them with better. Even my fighter pilots are 4* these days, now I can train them in batches of 100 at my HQ. That's still not good enough for my destroyer captains though. They get the full 5* seminar training (I don't build the ship until I've got the seminars to train the captain) & are MUCH better behaved when doing a station demolition job. Most of the time those stations don't get to fire even a single shot back at my demolition fleet.

[dholmstr]

I've also seen capitals do really dumb moves against stations, all factions. But mostly I've wonder why they can't target nearest module of said station and smack it dead center. Xenon are really pisspoor at it when they only have turrets with short range. An M plasma is able to get to it. And not that they would at least prio the defence modules, noooooo, they choose the most useless of them all module the pier. Wich happen to have a whole lotta hull HP and no turret.

[builder680]

All this talk of stars is missing the point anyway. A 5 year-old would know how to use a range advantage. Source: knew how to use a range advantage as a 5 year-old. It's OBVIOUS.

[LameFox]

I suspect Egosoft is too small of a studio to put resources into making good AI. I am told that AI is a particularly difficult thing to do well even for larger and richer developers. In my view it was a mistake to create a skill system when working with AI that is, at its best, still not great. Because then you end up forcing it to make very stupid, un-immersive actions because how else is it going to be worse than its mediocre ceiling?