Terran Kukri

[xant]

They are "more expensive" as a credit cost, but way way cheaper overall to manufacture. The Terran supply chain is like 3 items long for shipbuilding while it is like 9 or 11 or something items long for commonwealth ships. The terran supply chain is stupid easy to run... so its more expensive for an outsider to purchase as the base wares cost more... but it is much cheaper to actually manufacture your own ships.

And have you actually put a hokkaido up against a shuyaku or incarcatura, each with race specific gear, and had them make the same hauling run?

Have you read my last post? That's exactly what I said: they are best used when you can mass produce them for yourself, but we all know that it takes a bit to get there. If you have to buy them, they're the worst investment among all fighters.

And you most likely mean Okinawa and not Hokkaido (the mining ship). Yes, for very long routes you get the benefit of faster acceleration to travel speed. But the basic speed of the Okinawa is slow. If you get a Shuyaku or Incarcatura with the same TER equipment, those ships clearly outperform the Terran model. Since the basic model is more expensive (if bought), one would expect better base stats, but they're worse.

The Hokkaido is also quite bad, as the slow base speed means less yield per tick when gathering resources, after all the combat speed is used in the calculations for oos mining. That makes almost every other ship better, while the Terran ship is the by far most expensive to buy.

True, they are easier to manufacture. However, that alone can't justify both, worse performance and huge price increases. In the end, once you've set up the supply chain, every ship is easy to mass produce.

[dholmstr]

Why would I put a weapon that cost as much or more than the fighter itself?

Mostly using them on my Kalis bombers for the extra range they have over Proton or Pulse (4.2km compared to 2.6km & 2.7km respectively). Has an impact on how close they approach capitals while on an attack run. Essentially using them as a range finder as well as a backup weapon.

nothing compare to the bang bang wow effect of torpedoes

That's why I'm using heavy starbursts specifically - they have a similar visual effect to torpedoes, but they fire more often & are significantly faster (particularly useful feature when launched from slow Terran ships).

What's a Heavy Starburst?

[GCU Grey Area]

What's a Heavy Starburst?

Missile made by the Split. These are it's stats:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oj89ydvv35tdn ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[flywlyx]

For me it's opposite - Terran ships are amazing as player controlled, but absolutely sux in AI hands!
"Alpha Strike" with Meson Stream is a good joke - it's possible to one shot most of things with it, but even in player hands it's hard due to very narrow gimbal. When you (or certainly AI) miss, you're helpless.

It's fun to one-shot Xenon P with Gladius 4xMeson, but then I see AI controlled ship missng shots on freaking Xenon I or K

https://i.imgur.com/cmoCLWJ.jpg
3 starts pilot is enough to fight against P. They still have trouble shooting M/N though.

[jlehtone]

There is only one question about a combat ship: Does it present an enjoyable challenge?
(Flying it, facing them, deploying them. Your pick.)

As someone who enjoy a good carrier based combat in my game, let me give my two cents.

1. Kukri.

Imo, there is no redeeming quality for this ship. Is ugly, no uber shilding and not much gain in firepower. The ONLY reason that I use it, is becasue I RP a terran in my terran cadet start and kukri is what terran use in their fleets. I was thinking to make the switch to kalis for my carrier based fighters. I'm not concern about the drop in firepower because the player's fighters go about "all against one" mechanic, a single enemy S/M ship has about 20-40 fighters targeting it.

What is the (typical) OoB of factions? Only Terran Tokyo fleets I've seen with 65 S/M members. No other faction gets even close, do they?
(Quick peek into game: Argon One has 26 fighters in a save, Zyarth Flagship has 46.)

So, is massacre of Tokyo and its fleets boring, because it has only (lots of) Kukri?
Would you have to think twice, if enemy Tokyo had Chimeras?

[Ragnos28]

There is only one question about a combat ship: Does it present an enjoyable challenge?
(Flying it, facing them, deploying them. Your pick.)

As someone who enjoy a good carrier based combat in my game, let me give my two cents.

1. Kukri.

Imo, there is no redeeming quality for this ship. Is ugly, no uber shilding and not much gain in firepower. The ONLY reason that I use it, is becasue I RP a terran in my terran cadet start and kukri is what terran use in their fleets. I was thinking to make the switch to kalis for my carrier based fighters. I'm not concern about the drop in firepower because the player's fighters go about "all against one" mechanic, a single enemy S/M ship has about 20-40 fighters targeting it.

What is the (typical) OoB of factions? Only Terran Tokyo fleets I've seen with 65 S/M members. No other faction gets even close, do they?
(Quick peek into game: Argon One has 26 fighters in a save, Zyarth Flagship has 46.)

So, is massacre of Tokyo and its fleets boring, because it has only (lots of) Kukri?
Would you have to think twice, if enemy Tokyo had Chimeras?

Hmm..enjoyable challenge against the AI control ships? Not really... The moments in which the AI gives good challenge are very few and too far between. For one, the mechanic I describe, our fighters go "all against one", the AI fighters do not. I suppose that is intentional somewhat...if you are in your first fighter and atack...let's say a group of 3-4 fighters...and those fighters focus you, all at once..you will get a "game over"....and have many players rage quit, going "I can't win this, this game sucks". Sometimes, the fighters AI do a decent job..ex. I took a Behemoth to test the new and improved flak turetts on to a xenon swarm...6-8 xenon M had clean my turetts and engines very quicly, leaving me in a fuly shielded paper wheight Sadly, this behavior does not repeat it self if I fly a Syn or an Asgard, I see no focus on the turets and engines.
The AI don't do a good job using fighters, is irelevant if the AI enemy has Chimeras. On paper, Chimeras would oblitarate Kukris..but because my fighters will go "all against one", my Kukris will defeat a similar number of AI controled Chimeras.

"Would you have to think twice, if enemy Tokyo had Chimeras"- if the AI controled Chimeras, would focus the turetts and engines (like they should, imo), then yes, I would Definitely, if they have the same loadout like mine
But they won't and they don't Now, if X4 would allow for PVP, I'm sure that Chimeras would obliterate my Kukri wings (and my Asgard, if I would go solo).

[GCU Grey Area]

I took a Behemoth to test the new and improved flak turetts on to a xenon swarm...6-8 xenon M had clean my turetts and engines very quicly, leaving me in a fuly shielded paper wheight Sadly, this behavior does not repeat it self if I fly a Syn or an Asgard, I see no focus on the turets and engines.

Still happens with Syn & Asgard, think it just takes considerably longer to see the effects due to the preponderance of L turrets on such ships, compared to Behemoth etc. TER L turrets have 3600MJ of hull integrity to chew through & are often protected by much stronger shielding (compared to 500MJ hull integrity of ARG M turrets). Have certainly experienced such 'paperweight' moments while flying my Syn - most embarrassingly when it was stripped to the bone by nothing more than a large swarm of drones while assaulting a Xenon wharf. They were being slaughtered in droves but my turrets simply couldn't shoot them down fast enough & eventually all I had left was hull & main shields.

my Kukris will defeat a similar number of AI controled Chimeras.

Would love to see that video if you can arrange it. Might actually try Kukris myself if they could be proven to be effective against such ships.

[Caedes91]

Terran fighters have high energy weapons. This lets them punch above their gun numbers as the Terran chain bolt are one of the best weapons in X4. As such they are right up there with the Split as far as fire power goes. This is especially the case if using race appropriate weapons as Split weapons have horrible accuracy and a lot of guns means long cooldown time.

It also seems that S fighters are meant to be a weakness of the Terrans. They lack the +1 tier of shields like they have for the other classes of ship and as pointed out they are not statistically that good compared with other races. They work as fighters with number advantage but I would not trust them under heavy fire from stations and the like.

Have I missed something? As far as I know, the Terrans do have MK3 Shields on the S-size fighters.

[Imperial Good]

Have I missed something? As far as I know, the Terrans do have MK3 Shields on the S-size fighters.

So does everyone else. Including the Split. As such their Mk3 S shields are not anything special, with comparable stats to MK3s from other races. It is not like their Mk3 M and L and Mk2 XL shields which are in a league of their own, better than anything else due to being a tier higher. Similar to SPL Combat Mk4 engines for S and M sized ships.

[Malchar]

As such their Mk3 S shields are not anything special, with comparable stats to MK3s from other races.

Nothing special ? look at the bill they are horribled expansible.

I played terran a vey few, but early game I imported most of my ships from alpha profit center. You have about the same thing for half of the cost.

Kukri, I presume, had been designed to fight the xenon N. I this way it can make the job. I think the buzzard is not better than the kukri, probably even worst. Kukri and falcon have a different approach, But I cant really say one is far better than the other.

Where kukri suffers, it is when compared to its brother ; the light pionner fighter takoba.

[Ragnos28]

my Kukris will defeat a similar number of AI controled Chimeras.

Would love to see that video if you can arrange it. Might actually try Kukris myself if they could be proven to be effective against such ships.

Yeah, I would love to do it, except I can't

I have try to find a group of Chimera in my game...I was not successful New idea, I'm gone find a Raptor, agro it, that should give me the battle I need, make it launch its fighter escorts, it will be glorious
Found the Raptor, scan it..130 ships capacity...present capacity...2 Chimera, 1 Mamba What the frick is wrong with the factions fleets in this game? Where are the 100 Chimeras that I should face if I want to take on a Raptor?

Now I see why ppl were going..."what? the Raptor? I can kill it with a Nemesis...what is the big deal?", when I was going...yeah Raptor is great, with its fighter escourt..kills Asgard, kill Xenon invasion force...

Only terrans have proper fleets, the rest of the factions have joke fleets...what the frick is up with that?

Edit: picture added https://ibb.co/HdZw1ks Flagship Raptor

[grapedog]

They are "more expensive" as a credit cost, but way way cheaper overall to manufacture. The Terran supply chain is like 3 items long for shipbuilding while it is like 9 or 11 or something items long for commonwealth ships. The terran supply chain is stupid easy to run... so its more expensive for an outsider to purchase as the base wares cost more... but it is much cheaper to actually manufacture your own ships.

And have you actually put a hokkaido up against a shuyaku or incarcatura, each with race specific gear, and had them make the same hauling run?

Have you read my last post? That's exactly what I said: they are best used when you can mass produce them for yourself, but we all know that it takes a bit to get there. If you have to buy them, they're the worst investment among all fighters.

And you most likely mean Okinawa and not Hokkaido (the mining ship). Yes, for very long routes you get the benefit of faster acceleration to travel speed. But the basic speed of the Okinawa is slow. If you get a Shuyaku or Incarcatura with the same TER equipment, those ships clearly outperform the Terran model. Since the basic model is more expensive (if bought), one would expect better base stats, but they're worse.

The Hokkaido is also quite bad, as the slow base speed means less yield per tick when gathering resources, after all the combat speed is used in the calculations for oos mining. That makes almost every other ship better, while the Terran ship is the by far most expensive to buy.

True, they are easier to manufacture. However, that alone can't justify both, worse performance and huge price increases. In the end, once you've set up the supply chain, every ship is easy to mass produce.

Except the Terran supply chain is MUCH easier to set up... 3 components, and you're done.

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

[Alm888]

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

I'm kinda lost here. Are we comparing ship chassis or faction balance?

If it is the former, then we shall use identical equipment on all ships, no matter the origin/manufacturer.

And if it is the later, then we must take into account all other faction aspects as well: supply chains, logistics, average NPC pilot skill level (it is not a secret different factions have different possible NPC settings, like FAF/ZYA marines on board of a Rattlesnake are a head above those found on SCA/ARG/ANT etc. ships).

Also, are we doing the "Kukri vs. Evererything" for player personal/fleet usage, or for NPC faction against another NPC faction scenario?

If it is the former, then while Kukri is definitely one of the worse ships, I see no point complaining about this ship specifically. Almost no one (bar one youtuber) has any issues with the existence of "Elite Sentinel", for example. And if it is the later, then we shall acknowledge Kukris do a decent job, because while their performance is inferior, their loss in battle is not that big of a deal for TER, as streamlined economy makes replacement production trivial, while a loss of a Nova Sentinel is much more vexing because at least one thing of (Advanced Electronics/Hul Parts/Weapon Components/Engine Parts/Shield Components) is lacking, and even if there are required resources on producing stations, the delivery won't be instantaneous. So ANT/ARG won't be as quick at producing a replacement.

So, here we come.
A player can counterbalance Kukri's issues with commonwealth equipment (and later establish own production line), while TER (an NPC faction) does not use money at all and counterbalance Kukri's inferior performance with its streamlined economy.

[GCU Grey Area]

I have try to find a group of Chimera in my game...I was not successful New idea, I'm gone find a Raptor, agro it, that should give me the battle I need, make it launch its fighter escorts, it will be glorious
Found the Raptor, scan it..130 ships capacity...present capacity...2 Chimera, 1 Mamba What the frick is wrong with the factions fleets in this game? Where are the 100 Chimeras that I should face if I want to take on a Raptor?

See much the same thing in my game. Wonder if it's the high resource cost of Split capitals, which means there's fewer resources left over for fighter production?

Anyway, did however manage to find a reasonable size Argon fleet to test Kukris on, consisting of 1 Colossus, 1 Nomad, 2 Behemoths, 6 M's & 34 S's.

Fleet I used against them initially consisted of 40 Kukri Interceptors (armed with Protons) transported aboard a Tokyo. Kukris did better than I expected (3x Proton does hit quite hard), however they were still all wiped out before they could finish off the last 10 or so enemy S/M targets (capitals were untouched).

For comparison then tested with a mixed complement of fighters. 20 Kalis (Meson + H. Starburst launcher) manually ordered to attack enemy capitals, covered by 20 Interceptors (10 Takoba & 10 Gladius), each with a full set of Protons. Very different result this time. All enemy targets destroyed for a loss of just 3 Kalis.

Still struggling to find any point to using the Kukri when the same job can be done by half the number of Takobas & Gladius (& without the 100% casualty rate), leaving plenty of room in the carrier for anti-capital S bombers.

[A5PECT]

The kukri seems like a repeat of the quasar issue: doesn't offer anything compelling compared to other fighters, even when only looking at fighters within its faction.

I know some players break out in hives whenever the word "balance" comes up in discussion. But if Egosoft is going to commit the effort and resources to putting a ship in the game, they really should give it at least one good reason for the player to consider it.

[mr.WHO]

The kukri seems like a repeat of the quasar issue: doesn't offer anything compelling compared to other fighters, even when only looking at fighters within its faction.

Quasar doesn't offer anything, until you realize none of the Argon faction has a 3-gun fighter.
Quasar make sence in 3-gun fighter segment, due to fact that it has 4 guns (I know, that's very convoluded, but stat wise, other than the gun count, it's closer to other races 3-guns, than regular 4-gun heavy fighters).

[Ragnos28]

Still struggling to find any point to using the Kukri when the same job can be done by half the number of Takobas & Gladius (& without the 100% casualty rate), leaving plenty of room in the carrier for anti-capital S bombers.

Yeah..like I said, the only reason that I use Kukri is because I RP as a terran. I love the look of the Kalis and the superior shielding For that reason alone I'm tempted to do a segaris pioneer start (maybe not even custom) so I feel "free" to use Kalis But I feel like I must wait for Egosoft to sort the OOS mess atm that keep the Xenon weak becase OOS calculations are broken and stations are OP OOS (I am tired of seeing 1 I + 5 K's going splat against a food factory ). So, until I don't see the Xenon receive a boost (which the devs promise that will be achieve through more precise OOS calculations ), there is no point for a new start.

PS: what I like about your kalis meson + Heavy Starburst loaudout is that you manage to make terran fighters efective against capitals...I would still not like the look of that tho

[Alm888]

…they really should give it some kind of reason for the player to consider it over other options.

How about "Self-Imposed Challenge"?
I mean, only one ship is gonna be "The Best", and while some might argue Chimera/Moreya is a close match, the mindset that a player shall be using only the best ships makes 90% of vessels in the game "useless".
We have tons of them: Buzzard, Falcon (well, any Teladi S-class fighter craft in general), Elite, Theseus, Mamba and probably the whole "Sentinel" set. By "purging" the game of "junk" ships we remove the "Best" ships' victims.

Remember, one can be the best only when compared to someone else ("the loser"). One can not be the best alone.

[GCU Grey Area]

We have tons of them: Buzzard, Falcon (well, any Teladi S-class fighter craft in general), Elite, Theseus, Mamba and probably the whole "Sentinel" set. By "purging" the game of "junk" ships we remove the "Best" ships' victims.

Would not categorise those ships as junk, most of them are average at worst.

One of my previous games was strictly Teladi-only & both Falcon & Buzzard proved to be adequate for what I needed them to do - Falcon's a bit faster & has a thicker hull, while Buzzard's a bit flimsier but has an extra gun & both have an adequate level of shielding. Not great ships but certainly good enough. Elite's just a bog standard single shield/single gun scout & starter ship - every faction's got an equivalent, don't think anyone expects to start the game with best in class. Can't really comment on Theseus - never played as Paranid & dislike their aesthetic, however stats don't look all that bad, just another variant of average. Mamba's fine, best shielded of the Split fighters. If I was to start a new Split game they'd be my S bombers (prefer to have as much shielding as possible in that role now capitals explode with a rather big bang).

Kukri however stands out for me as having a distinctly bad set of characteristics. Single shield fighters need either speed or a really thick hull to be viable (or both in the case of the Split). Kukri has neither & just gets torn apart in a fight.

[jlehtone]

Only terrans have proper fleets, the rest of the factions have joke fleets...what the frick is up with that?

Edit: picture added https://ibb.co/HdZw1ks Flagship Raptor

Supply fertilizer and take out weeds and it could grow: Another Flagship Raptor

See much the same thing in my game. Wonder if it's the high resource cost of Split capitals, which means there's fewer resources left over for fighter production?

Probably. I had them on spoon-feeding until they had no capitals on build queue. Besides, when I order Balaurs the FRF can build only ~5 at a time; Hull part storage (i.e. logistics) is woeful.

How about "Self-Imposed Challenge"?

That works to an extent. It is a fine reason for personal ship. However, it is hardly a "challenge" if statistics after some repeats show that 20 Gladius get job done while 40 Kukri are all KIA. Then again, it is hard to find a spot where NPC have the muscle to kill those Kukri.