Terran Kukri

[Ragnos28]

my Kukris will defeat a similar number of AI controled Chimeras.

Would love to see that video if you can arrange it. Might actually try Kukris myself if they could be proven to be effective against such ships.

Yeah, I would love to do it, except I can't

I have try to find a group of Chimera in my game...I was not successful New idea, I'm gone find a Raptor, agro it, that should give me the battle I need, make it launch its fighter escorts, it will be glorious
Found the Raptor, scan it..130 ships capacity...present capacity...2 Chimera, 1 Mamba What the frick is wrong with the factions fleets in this game? Where are the 100 Chimeras that I should face if I want to take on a Raptor?

Now I see why ppl were going..."what? the Raptor? I can kill it with a Nemesis...what is the big deal?", when I was going...yeah Raptor is great, with its fighter escourt..kills Asgard, kill Xenon invasion force...

Only terrans have proper fleets, the rest of the factions have joke fleets...what the frick is up with that?

Edit: picture added https://ibb.co/HdZw1ks Flagship Raptor

[grapedog]

They are "more expensive" as a credit cost, but way way cheaper overall to manufacture. The Terran supply chain is like 3 items long for shipbuilding while it is like 9 or 11 or something items long for commonwealth ships. The terran supply chain is stupid easy to run... so its more expensive for an outsider to purchase as the base wares cost more... but it is much cheaper to actually manufacture your own ships.

And have you actually put a hokkaido up against a shuyaku or incarcatura, each with race specific gear, and had them make the same hauling run?

Have you read my last post? That's exactly what I said: they are best used when you can mass produce them for yourself, but we all know that it takes a bit to get there. If you have to buy them, they're the worst investment among all fighters.

And you most likely mean Okinawa and not Hokkaido (the mining ship). Yes, for very long routes you get the benefit of faster acceleration to travel speed. But the basic speed of the Okinawa is slow. If you get a Shuyaku or Incarcatura with the same TER equipment, those ships clearly outperform the Terran model. Since the basic model is more expensive (if bought), one would expect better base stats, but they're worse.

The Hokkaido is also quite bad, as the slow base speed means less yield per tick when gathering resources, after all the combat speed is used in the calculations for oos mining. That makes almost every other ship better, while the Terran ship is the by far most expensive to buy.

True, they are easier to manufacture. However, that alone can't justify both, worse performance and huge price increases. In the end, once you've set up the supply chain, every ship is easy to mass produce.

Except the Terran supply chain is MUCH easier to set up... 3 components, and you're done.

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

[Alm888]

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

I'm kinda lost here. Are we comparing ship chassis or faction balance?

If it is the former, then we shall use identical equipment on all ships, no matter the origin/manufacturer.

And if it is the later, then we must take into account all other faction aspects as well: supply chains, logistics, average NPC pilot skill level (it is not a secret different factions have different possible NPC settings, like FAF/ZYA marines on board of a Rattlesnake are a head above those found on SCA/ARG/ANT etc. ships).

Also, are we doing the "Kukri vs. Evererything" for player personal/fleet usage, or for NPC faction against another NPC faction scenario?

If it is the former, then while Kukri is definitely one of the worse ships, I see no point complaining about this ship specifically. Almost no one (bar one youtuber) has any issues with the existence of "Elite Sentinel", for example. And if it is the later, then we shall acknowledge Kukris do a decent job, because while their performance is inferior, their loss in battle is not that big of a deal for TER, as streamlined economy makes replacement production trivial, while a loss of a Nova Sentinel is much more vexing because at least one thing of (Advanced Electronics/Hul Parts/Weapon Components/Engine Parts/Shield Components) is lacking, and even if there are required resources on producing stations, the delivery won't be instantaneous. So ANT/ARG won't be as quick at producing a replacement.

So, here we come.
A player can counterbalance Kukri's issues with commonwealth equipment (and later establish own production line), while TER (an NPC faction) does not use money at all and counterbalance Kukri's inferior performance with its streamlined economy.

[GCU Grey Area]

I have try to find a group of Chimera in my game...I was not successful New idea, I'm gone find a Raptor, agro it, that should give me the battle I need, make it launch its fighter escorts, it will be glorious
Found the Raptor, scan it..130 ships capacity...present capacity...2 Chimera, 1 Mamba What the frick is wrong with the factions fleets in this game? Where are the 100 Chimeras that I should face if I want to take on a Raptor?

See much the same thing in my game. Wonder if it's the high resource cost of Split capitals, which means there's fewer resources left over for fighter production?

Anyway, did however manage to find a reasonable size Argon fleet to test Kukris on, consisting of 1 Colossus, 1 Nomad, 2 Behemoths, 6 M's & 34 S's.

Fleet I used against them initially consisted of 40 Kukri Interceptors (armed with Protons) transported aboard a Tokyo. Kukris did better than I expected (3x Proton does hit quite hard), however they were still all wiped out before they could finish off the last 10 or so enemy S/M targets (capitals were untouched).

For comparison then tested with a mixed complement of fighters. 20 Kalis (Meson + H. Starburst launcher) manually ordered to attack enemy capitals, covered by 20 Interceptors (10 Takoba & 10 Gladius), each with a full set of Protons. Very different result this time. All enemy targets destroyed for a loss of just 3 Kalis.

Still struggling to find any point to using the Kukri when the same job can be done by half the number of Takobas & Gladius (& without the 100% casualty rate), leaving plenty of room in the carrier for anti-capital S bombers.

[A5PECT]

The kukri seems like a repeat of the quasar issue: doesn't offer anything compelling compared to other fighters, even when only looking at fighters within its faction.

I know some players break out in hives whenever the word "balance" comes up in discussion. But if Egosoft is going to commit the effort and resources to putting a ship in the game, they really should give it at least one good reason for the player to consider it.

[mr.WHO]

The kukri seems like a repeat of the quasar issue: doesn't offer anything compelling compared to other fighters, even when only looking at fighters within its faction.

Quasar doesn't offer anything, until you realize none of the Argon faction has a 3-gun fighter.
Quasar make sence in 3-gun fighter segment, due to fact that it has 4 guns (I know, that's very convoluded, but stat wise, other than the gun count, it's closer to other races 3-guns, than regular 4-gun heavy fighters).

[Ragnos28]

Still struggling to find any point to using the Kukri when the same job can be done by half the number of Takobas & Gladius (& without the 100% casualty rate), leaving plenty of room in the carrier for anti-capital S bombers.

Yeah..like I said, the only reason that I use Kukri is because I RP as a terran. I love the look of the Kalis and the superior shielding For that reason alone I'm tempted to do a segaris pioneer start (maybe not even custom) so I feel "free" to use Kalis But I feel like I must wait for Egosoft to sort the OOS mess atm that keep the Xenon weak becase OOS calculations are broken and stations are OP OOS (I am tired of seeing 1 I + 5 K's going splat against a food factory ). So, until I don't see the Xenon receive a boost (which the devs promise that will be achieve through more precise OOS calculations ), there is no point for a new start.

PS: what I like about your kalis meson + Heavy Starburst loaudout is that you manage to make terran fighters efective against capitals...I would still not like the look of that tho

[Alm888]

…they really should give it some kind of reason for the player to consider it over other options.

How about "Self-Imposed Challenge"?
I mean, only one ship is gonna be "The Best", and while some might argue Chimera/Moreya is a close match, the mindset that a player shall be using only the best ships makes 90% of vessels in the game "useless".
We have tons of them: Buzzard, Falcon (well, any Teladi S-class fighter craft in general), Elite, Theseus, Mamba and probably the whole "Sentinel" set. By "purging" the game of "junk" ships we remove the "Best" ships' victims.

Remember, one can be the best only when compared to someone else ("the loser"). One can not be the best alone.

[GCU Grey Area]

We have tons of them: Buzzard, Falcon (well, any Teladi S-class fighter craft in general), Elite, Theseus, Mamba and probably the whole "Sentinel" set. By "purging" the game of "junk" ships we remove the "Best" ships' victims.

Would not categorise those ships as junk, most of them are average at worst.

One of my previous games was strictly Teladi-only & both Falcon & Buzzard proved to be adequate for what I needed them to do - Falcon's a bit faster & has a thicker hull, while Buzzard's a bit flimsier but has an extra gun & both have an adequate level of shielding. Not great ships but certainly good enough. Elite's just a bog standard single shield/single gun scout & starter ship - every faction's got an equivalent, don't think anyone expects to start the game with best in class. Can't really comment on Theseus - never played as Paranid & dislike their aesthetic, however stats don't look all that bad, just another variant of average. Mamba's fine, best shielded of the Split fighters. If I was to start a new Split game they'd be my S bombers (prefer to have as much shielding as possible in that role now capitals explode with a rather big bang).

Kukri however stands out for me as having a distinctly bad set of characteristics. Single shield fighters need either speed or a really thick hull to be viable (or both in the case of the Split). Kukri has neither & just gets torn apart in a fight.

[jlehtone]

Only terrans have proper fleets, the rest of the factions have joke fleets...what the frick is up with that?

Edit: picture added https://ibb.co/HdZw1ks Flagship Raptor

Supply fertilizer and take out weeds and it could grow: Another Flagship Raptor

See much the same thing in my game. Wonder if it's the high resource cost of Split capitals, which means there's fewer resources left over for fighter production?

Probably. I had them on spoon-feeding until they had no capitals on build queue. Besides, when I order Balaurs the FRF can build only ~5 at a time; Hull part storage (i.e. logistics) is woeful.

How about "Self-Imposed Challenge"?

That works to an extent. It is a fine reason for personal ship. However, it is hardly a "challenge" if statistics after some repeats show that 20 Gladius get job done while 40 Kukri are all KIA. Then again, it is hard to find a spot where NPC have the muscle to kill those Kukri.

[Ragnos28]

Supply fertilizer and take out weeds and it could grow: Another Flagship Raptor

Wow...can we exchange Raptors?

[jlehtone]

Tempting, but my Teladi underlings are suspicious about the profit-aspect of that trade.

For one, the mechanic I describe, our fighters go "all against one", the AI fighters do not. I suppose that is intentional somewhat...if you are in your first fighter and atack...let's say a group of 3-4 fighters...and those fighters focus you, all at once..you will get a "game over"....and have many players rage quit, going "I can't win this, this game sucks".

When I fly alone I seem to get attention as the foes have nothing "better" to do. Granted, I'm then usually too busy to check whether they all chase me. And, yes, too much hostile attention on slow starter ship is not the warm welcome of positive type.

However, the player-fleet mechanic is unfathomable. I did not understand the X3TC/AP Wings either. X3 Wings had some "leaders" attribute, but I never saw what it did. X4 Carrier can have many groups, but it seems to assign all ships to same task. In other words, neither player nor NPC fleets act very smart and them acting differently is cheesy. (Not to mention that all NPC Groups show "Defence" assignment, yet they attack "unprovoked".)


As is, Kukri has a purpose: if my pilots under-perform, they could be transferred to the Kukri-squadron. Now that is a pep-talk, isn't it?

[Ragnos28]

Tempting, but my Teladi underlings are suspicious about the profit-aspect of that trade.

Well, ahh...explain to them that, other that the landing pads that are ocupied with the 2 Chimera and the 1 Mamba, the rest are in pristine conditions, never used

As is, Kukri has a purpose: if my pilots under-perform, they could be transferred to the Kukri-squadron. Now that is a pep-talk, isn't it?

Hmm, I was about to sell some 20 Kukri to replace them with Kalis, but start notice that some of the pilots have achieve 3 stars..so, before taking the "plunge", some transfers are in order
About pep-talk..I did notice that my destroyer pilots begin to perform better against stations, after I have explain to them that I will bill to their families the cost of the destroyers that will go boom under their command

Look, look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXuMtHTlpcA&t=1s

[surferx]

Syn is also the best destroyer, combining the firepower of the Rattlesnake with 3 shields and even more L turrets. Its main batteries are also not that much weaker as TER L main batteries are highest damage.

Syn + 8 paranid plasma L turetts = "I kill anything" ship

I don't know what to think about an "I WIN" mission reward ship ...best mission reward ever in an X game

IMO "I WIN" ships are an advantage I don' t care to utilize. I play the game as it was intended, Egosoft put a lot of effort into game balance. I don't mix ships with other race's equipment. Other than pirate vessels you don't see NPC ships with mixed equipment. What is the challenge in playing if you have an all powerful ship? The game would quickly become boring for me.

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

Well said.

As to the OP and the Kukri, I enjoy putting in a lot of flight time in all ships of every race from scouts to carriers. The goal is to find the strong points of each ship while compensating for it's weakness.

[Alm888]

And you can't put equipment from one race on another races ships and talk about balance. The game races are balanced against their own gear... so giving a shuyaku TER engines is great for the player, but useless when talking about ship balance.

Oh, yes, you can!
Let's not talk about what player can and can not do. Or I may remind you player can not have a 4-5★ captain on a ship from the get-go. Or player's inability to buy ships without credits. Or player's initial lack of access to decent equipment without grinding for "reputation". Or lack of own Wharves/Shipyards.

Player faction is not like any other NPC faction. We are talking asymmetric mechanics here. Maybe not as extreme as in "AI Wars" series, but asymmetric nonetheless. So a player can utilize any advantage (s)he has. Of course, one is free to "roleplay" and willingly restrict oneself, but the balance should be tailored against all of player's "move-set" and not some arbitrary subset deemed "acceptable".

[grapedog]

Player faction is not like any other NPC faction. We are talking asymmetric mechanics here. Maybe not as extreme as in "AI Wars" series, but asymmetric nonetheless. So a player can utilize any advantage (s)he has. Of course, one is free to "roleplay" and willingly restrict oneself, but the balance should be tailored against all of player's "move-set" and not some arbitrary subset deemed "acceptable".

Sure, go ahead and do whatever you want during the game... but don't complain about ship balance while doing it. Ships should be balanced within their factions, with their own specific faction equipment.

Balancing a ARG ship, with TEL shield, SPL engines, TER weapons.... that's just a stupid comparison.

So build whatever ships you want, however you want in your game... but don't try to balance them with different faction specific equipment, because that isn't how ships are balanced, and it is idiotic to do so.

[Alm888]

Sure, go ahead and do whatever you want during the game... but don't complain about ship balance while doing it. Ships should be balanced within their factions, with their own specific faction equipment.

Balancing a ARG ship, with TEL shield, SPL engines, TER weapons.... that's just a stupid comparison.

So build whatever ships you want, however you want in your game... but don't try to balance them with different faction specific equipment, because that isn't how ships are balanced, and it is idiotic to do so.

I don't understand your hostility towards myself here. I never said Kukri is unbalanced. On the contrary, I postulated that Kukri is perfectly balanced by TER simplified production chain and economy, so its poor performance is alleviated by the fact Protectorate can produce thousands of Kukris and won't notice if a few dozens get boom.

You, on the contrary, are complaining Kukri is "bad".

No, it is not. It is not bad for Terran Protectorate.

Kukri is bad for a player playing pretend to be part of the Protectorate, while not having access to unlimited pilots, credits or production lines, like the Protectorate itself.

First you self-impose additional challenges, then you complain the ship is "unbalanced". This is something I can not understand. I wouldn't scream on every corner "Teladi ships are bad" because I'm roleplaying "Teladi Company dealer" and have no access to Chimeras or "SPL S Combat Engines Mk4". Or "Teladi Traders are bad" because I'm stuck with their snails and have no access to Shuyaku and Boa.

[grapedog]

Sure, go ahead and do whatever you want during the game... but don't complain about ship balance while doing it. Ships should be balanced within their factions, with their own specific faction equipment.

Balancing a ARG ship, with TEL shield, SPL engines, TER weapons.... that's just a stupid comparison.

So build whatever ships you want, however you want in your game... but don't try to balance them with different faction specific equipment, because that isn't how ships are balanced, and it is idiotic to do so.

I don't understand your hostility towards myself here. I never said Kukri is unbalanced. On the contrary, I postulated that Kukri is perfectly balanced by TER simplified production chain and economy, so its poor performance is alleviated by the fact Protectorate can produce thousands of Kukris and won't notice if a few dozens get boom.

You, on the contrary, are complaining Kukri is "bad".

No, it is not. It is not bad for Terran Protectorate.

Kukri is bad for a player playing pretend to be part of the Protectorate, while not having access to unlimited pilots, credits or production lines, like the Protectorate itself.

First you self-impose additional challenges, then you complain the ship is "unbalanced". This is something I can not understand. I wouldn't scream on every corner "Teladi ships are bad" because I'm roleplaying "Teladi Company dealer" and have no access to Chimeras or "SPL S Combat Engines Mk4". Or "Teladi Traders are bad" because I'm stuck with their snails and have no access to Shuyaku and Boa.

Find a single post I've made that said the kukri was bad........................... i'll wait. Still waiting...

I HAVE said the the TER S fighters are a whole are mediocre, but more than made up for by the strength of the rest of the TER fleet...

But I will flat out dismiss any talk about "ship balance" when you're throwing different factions equipment on different faction ships. The game isn't balanced around the AI doing the same shady intra-species deals that we pull off as players. The ships are balanced with their own faction equipment, and with their own faction ships and fleets. Any talk about balance outside of these is unhelpful at best.

[Alm888]

Find a single post I've made that said the kukri was bad........................... i'll wait. Still waiting...

Sorry. I mistook you for "GCU Grey Area" for a second.

But I will flat out dismiss any talk about "ship balance" when you're throwing different factions equipment on different faction ships. The game isn't balanced around the AI doing the same shady intra-species deals that we pull off as players. The ships are balanced with their own faction equipment, and with their own faction ships and fleets. Any talk about balance outside of these is unhelpful at best.

Sorry again, but you are fundamentally wrong here.

For NPC faction vs. NPC faction balancing -- sure. Only faction-specific equipment must be used. And this is something even the game itself does not honor!
I have a collection of captured "ARG Ides Sentinel", "PIO Gladius", "ANT Nova Vanguard" and other ships belonging to factions which they theoretically should not belong to. And there are instances of PIO ships using "Meson Stream" -- a weapon PIO should not have access to.

But a Player's "faction" does not play by NPC rules. Like I said, a player does not have access to unlimited pilots (so (s)he may not be concerned about combat casualties) or unlimited credits (in order to build any number of replacements as needed).
So, for a "Player ship candidate vs. player ship candidate" comparing any ship with the same equipment is not only acceptable, but mandatory.

And if you absolutely insist on roleplaying as a faction member (let it be TER) and stating a player very positively definitely shall never ever use alien faction equipment and be always restricted to one's "home faction", then I hope you are also:
1) not using wrong faction equipment/ships (no Takobas for TER; no Syns, Tokyos, Asgards, Honshus, Jians, Falxes or Nimchas for PIO; no Mk2 weapon variants for PIO etc.);
2) obeying your faction quotas! No amassing 100+ Kukris allowed! All your fleets must obey your faction limits;
3) not serving your enemy! TER are -15 with almost everyone, so you are also obliged to behave accordingly. No side missions, no trading, no negotiations;
4) are submitting yourself to your faction's logic: neither you, nor your fleets are allowed to be outside of TER sphere of influence with the exception of participation in incursions as "Intervention Corps" reinforcement. But then, being part of "Intervention Corps" mandates you obey your supreme commander orders: fight whoever your admiral fights, travel wherever (s)he travels (no sightseeing); and you must not flee unless explicitly ordered to retreat by your superior officer (fleet admiral), or, in case your officer has fallen in battle you are to immediately return to TER space for reforming/reassignment/restocking subordinates;
5) are not building stations (that's the High Command prerogative to decide where and which stations are built) and are definitely not trying to claim sectors for yourself;
6) (this goes without saying, but…) are not recruiting any crewmembers but TER staff (white uniforms). PIO staff (dark blue uniforms) won't do!

If roleplaying, be hardcore!

[jlehtone]

Balance and "balance".

A faction has goals and doctrine that it uses to pursue those goals. Doctrine requires roles. Kukri either fulfills a role in TER doctrine, or does not. If not, what can we say about dysfunctional faction?

When [NPC] faction meets [NPC] faction, their forces either have a stalemate, trench war, or one overruns the other. A "balance" between them -- neither can decimate the other -- is probably set artificially to prevent the game from turning monotonous. Does Kukri enable TER to hold its own against other factions? If not, then it is probably not the only contributing factor to their demise.

Player. Yes, the troublemaker. How to make ships so "evenly matched" that you can easily pick any of them without regrets, yet "so diverse" that they do not feel carbon copies. Even within player faction there are the playership and the remote fleets; two different objectives.


Optimize to multiple, most likely conflicting objectives. Oh, wait, each player has different weights for the system. It is so easy to be dissatisfied, isn't it?