Feature (Debt) suggestion for the custom starts to make challenging runs

[errorname1002]

Starting with a negative balance or debt

-Why?

X4 is a very open game, with a lot of ways to generate creditsss and solve problems. Sadly most players don't get to experience all there is to offer in the game due to some playstyle being more efficient than others.One way to tackle this problem is to provide the option for players to challenge them selves into sticking in the less played playstyles by holding their creditsss hostage .

-How to implement debt ?

inside the custom start editor, in the player tab a check box for "In debt" sets the starting balance to 0 and deactivates it, also activate a debt slider.
In game a generic "Get out of debt" mission starts.. the mission has a detected account which the game checks and compares to the chosen debt at the editor. The mission takes all creditss going to the player account and send it to the mission (debt) account. Once the debt is repaid in full the missions is over and the player account is free to function normally again.

-What would the player do with it ?

The player is forced to utilize his starting assets to their full potential. Any asset lost is not replaceable until the debt is paid in full.
The player can start in a miner, A fighter, etc, and relearn the basics that we forgotten after reaching our billion creditsss empires.
The player can start considering the risks involved in his every move, probably preferring the safer options over the more dangerous yet more profitable options.
This can also add an actual reason for the pirate playstyle, since you don't need an initial investment to steal, and would give you an objective to achieve in your run.
You can design your own challenges and share them with others too since they are simply custom game starts with no mods or anything like that.

What do you think guys ? is this even a good idea ?

[Panos]

Starting with a negative balance or debt

-Why?

X4 is a very open game, with a lot of ways to generate creditsss and solve problems. Sadly most players don't get to experience all there is to offer in the game due to some playstyle being more efficient than others.One way to tackle this problem is to provide the option for players to challenge them selves into sticking in the less played playstyles by holding their creditsss hostage .

-How to implement debt ?

inside the custom start editor, in the player tab a check box for "In debt" sets the starting balance to 0 and deactivates it, also activate a debt slider.
In game a generic "Get out of debt" mission starts.. the mission has a detected account which the game checks and compares to the chosen debt at the editor. The mission takes all creditss going to the player account and send it to the mission (debt) account. Once the debt is repaid in full the missions is over and the player account is free to function normally again.

-What would the player do with it ?

The player is forced to utilize his starting assets to their full potential. Any asset lost is not replaceable until the debt is paid in full.
The player can start in a miner, A fighter, etc, and relearn the basics that we forgotten after reaching our billion creditsss empires.
The player can start considering the risks involved in his every move, probably preferring the safer options over the more dangerous yet more profitable options.
This can also add an actual reason for the pirate playstyle, since you don't need an initial investment to steal, and would give you an objective to achieve in your run.
You can design your own challenges and share them with others too since they are simply custom game starts with no mods or anything like that.

What do you think guys ? is this even a good idea ?

You can start a custom gamestart without ship with 10000cr only in a spacesuit. Wanting to start in worst situation than this, maybe you need to reflect that gaming is all about fun not torture.

[errorname1002]

You can start a custom gamestart without ship with 10000cr only in a spacesuit. Wanting to start in worst situation than this, maybe you need to reflect that gaming is all about fun not torture.

1-it is not a "bad" situation per say, you can start with a fleet of 10 miners or a fleet of destroyers , no one is stopping you from that, but your expansion is delayed by the amount of debt you chose to implement on your self.
2- You can use the so called " Get out of debt mission" as your main objective of the game, and when you reach it, you can consider that the game ended.
3- the reason why you would do put a debt on your self , is in a way to force your self into a playstyle that you have never done before, not to torture your self with very long or near impossible challenges .
But I understand, Dev time is limited and a feature like this is not worth it unless people find it interesting.

[Panos]

You can start a custom gamestart without ship with 10000cr only in a spacesuit. Wanting to start in worst situation than this, maybe you need to reflect that gaming is all about fun not torture.

1-it is not a "bad" situation per say, you can start with a fleet of 10 miners or a fleet of destroyers , no one is stopping you from that, but your expansion is delayed by the amount of debt you chose to implement on your self.
2- You can use the so called " Get out of debt mission" as your main objective of the game, and when you reach it, you can consider that the game ended.
3- the reason why you would do put a debt on your self , is in a way to force your self into a playstyle that you have never done before, not to torture your self with very long or near impossible challenges .
But I understand, Dev time is limited and a feature like this is not worth it unless people find it interesting.

But WHY? It will cause more issues than it will solve. Possible you are the only person wanting this feature. No other game in my 30y of gaming has such feature because is very difficult to track, opening to too many bugs and issues.

If you want something like this, maybe you should have played EVE Online back in 2003-2008 era. With the proper player run bank, funded by shares and lottery tickets, proper debt collectors that could make your life impossible to even undock from a station and everything else on top.

[Kajar]

But WHY? It will cause more issues than it will solve. Possible you are the only person wanting this feature. No other game in my 30y of gaming has such feature because is very difficult to track, opening to too many bugs and issues.

If you want something like this, maybe you should have played EVE Online back in 2003-2008 era. With the proper player run bank, funded by shares and lottery tickets, proper debt collectors that could make your life impossible to even undock from a station and everything else on top.

Because... why not? Sometimes people like some extra challenge. I don't see the problem with that.
People have played through every dark souls game, in one sitting, without getting hit once. Because why not?
People have played through various mario games without ever collecting a single coin. Because why not?
I liked the start of the Suicidal Boron in X3 TC/AP because it is a tough and challenging setting. Something to test my knowledge of the game.

Some people like to be challenged. Adding more challenge option is always a nice thing in my eyes.

[Panos]

But WHY? It will cause more issues than it will solve. Possible you are the only person wanting this feature. No other game in my 30y of gaming has such feature because is very difficult to track, opening to too many bugs and issues.

If you want something like this, maybe you should have played EVE Online back in 2003-2008 era. With the proper player run bank, funded by shares and lottery tickets, proper debt collectors that could make your life impossible to even undock from a station and everything else on top.

Because... why not? Sometimes people like some extra challenge. I don't see the problem with that.
People have played through every dark souls game, in one sitting, without getting hit once. Because why not?
People have played through various mario games without ever collecting a single coin. Because why not?
I liked the start of the Suicidal Boron in X3 TC/AP because it is a tough and challenging setting. Something to test my knowledge of the game.

Some people like to be challenged. Adding more challenge option is always a nice thing in my eyes.

There is a big difference from having a challenge based on game mechanics and completely different thing asking for a new complex functionality that will require hundreds if not thousands of man-hours in design and development. Let alone debugging, testing and bug fixing. And for what? 1-2 players?
Is a game and we play it for having FUN.


If you want those mechanics, they do exist in real life. Go start your own business like many of us have, get loans, find customers, products employees.
That is the real challenge. Do you have the guts to do it like many of us have?

[humility925]

I don't think it's worth it, very very few people would choice this, or should I said rare.

You could set up as spacesuit with zero credit and nothing, not even spaceship, ect, even make all faction -15 dislike you, and you are unable to dock it, petty much this gamestart is doom from start.

[SirConnery]

Fortunately this is really easy for you to "house rule". Just make an arbitrary limit like 50k which before you can't buy anything. Then when you get it just waste the 50k on some cargo and dump it. Voila, you have 0 credits now and have "paid off" your debt.

[dtpsprt]

There used to be "similar" gamestarts in X3 TC/AP and it was always interesting to pass that "debt" phase which was timed. I believe that many people seeking a challenge would start a game like that, especially if the period to "pay off" the debt is timed...

If you fail you should find yourself in your spacesuit and -15 with all factions wherever that happened and good luck with that.

Yes... it could put a lot of "spice" in the game....

[dtpsprt]

Fortunately this is really easy for you to "house rule". Just make an arbitrary limit like 50k which before you can't buy anything. Then when you get it just waste the 50k on some cargo and dump it. Voila, you have 0 credits now and have "paid off" your debt.

That is 0 credits, which can be done in the custom game start (Budgeted or Creative). Starting with a debt and paying it off is something totally different...

[SirConnery]

In my example you would essentially have a 50k debt.
Just house rule so you don't buy anything until you have 50k, in essence creating a 50k debt. Then throw that 50k away. Problem solved.

[Rei Ayanami]

Personally I don't see how it brings much to the game since it basically just means that you'll have to do 3~5 more missions or mine a few more crystals in the beginning, so it doesn't really add any difficulty or gameplay changes, it just tacks 10~30 minutes onto the starting phase of a new game.

That being said, if people want to do it i'm not against it. But I don't think having to program an entire mission around this is neccessary, just enable the player to choose a negative starting balance if they want (that is, if the credit counter can actually go into the negatives).

The only way where it could add gameplay changes or add a new experience is if you only have a limited amount of time to pay it back or face consequences. For example, if you start the game, the Teladi or SCA inform you that you are in debt and you have X days to pay money back. If you don't manage to do it their entire faction goes hostile towards you.

[CBJ]

I have removed a number of personal attacks from this thread. See forum rules.

[spookywatcher]

There used to be "similar" gamestarts in X3 TC/AP and it was always interesting to pass that "debt" phase which was timed. I believe that many people seeking a challenge would start a game like that, especially if the period to "pay off" the debt is timed...

If you fail you should find yourself in your spacesuit and -15 with all factions wherever that happened and good luck with that.

Yes... it could put a lot of "spice" in the game....

I'd play that start. I think the debt idea with time limit would be a great addition as a start option. Crazy how this stirred up so much. As soon as I read the title my first thought was "Awesome Idea". I do have to try out the spacesuit only start. I'm masochistic like that.

[grapedog]

I voted against it, not because it is more trouble than it is worth, but because it's just a bad idea. Not something I think the developers should spend time on.

[Roeleveld]

I would love this as an option and would definitely try this, making custom starts actually interesting beyond "skipping" the beginning of the game.

I would love to hear from the devs on how much work it would be to implement something like this.

[NightmareNight91]

I think it is interesting, would be a fun challenge. Doubt the devs will do it though sadly.

[Kajar]

Well, they DID spend a giant pile of resources to create the terraforming system. Now, 6 months after its release, only 0.1% of the player base have completed the terraforming. Only 1.4% have done their first terraforming project. According to Steam. That is a whole lot of work they put in for very few people.
We also got the HQ plot from X3TC as an example. Egosoft is definitely willing to create difficult scenarios for their more experienced players, even if they are small in numbers.
Maybe in the end they just bring back some of the debt-starts from X3 and you get a special modded ship if you manage to beat it.
Overall i think an update that adds some special challenge-starts might be nice to make the more experienced players think outside of the box. Right now X4 is just too easy for me and i am in an " You win " state within 10 hours.
I mean, i even did the spacsuit-only start in X3FL and it turned out much less difficult than i expected.