OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

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paiku
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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by paiku » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 13:25

rubahax4 wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 13:15
I think the problem is in the new function to slow down OOS battles.
I think you need to include this function in the experiment section and disable it by default.
I don't think that's the case. m/s ships working normally OOS. If you watch destroyers oos with seta you will see them circling around the station. IS they would just stand still and fire or move in a streight line to the target.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Cookieknabberer » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 13:56

Treycore wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 12:09

Try blowing up the build storage pods? I think they’ll just keep trying to rebuild as long as they have resources stored there… I haven’t tried it yet
Nope does not work, I already made sure that no S reaches the build storage and the storage is empty. They still keep "building/planning" the structures.
So yes it would be a great idea if we could really kill their economics but seems that even that is not working anymore.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:00

I have noticed that Xenon stations can often have multiple build storages spread around the same general area rather than just the one per station that you would usually expect. Perhaps you cleared out one or more, but not all of them? Not seeing them on the map and not being able to target them properly doesn't help either. Just a theory though.
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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Cookieknabberer » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:08

Checked it. No additional build storages there. The S Ships also only fly to that one place and die horribly :twisted:

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Xenon_Slayer » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:49

Thanks for the reports. There are some issues, not exclusive to OOS combat, that may result in some stations being rather tough to kill. In short, they could end up recycling their wrecked modules faster than the attackers can wreck the rest. We've already made some improvements internally and will continue to look into feedback from 4.10.
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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by paiku » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 18:24

Xenon_Slayer wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:49
Thanks for the reports. There are some issues, not exclusive to OOS combat, that may result in some stations being rather tough to kill. In short, they could end up recycling their wrecked modules faster than the attackers can wreck the rest. We've already made some improvements internally and will continue to look into feedback from 4.10.
i hope you did notice that the oos destroyer bug is probably not related to the rebuilding of modules. since a bunch of m ships can destroy stations oos with easy. i hope you can solve this, thanks.
Here you can see, that 10 Destroyers can't bring the station below 99% OOS. IS it goes down quickly.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Treycore » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 21:01

Xenon_Slayer wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:49
Thanks for the reports. There are some issues, not exclusive to OOS combat, that may result in some stations being rather tough to kill. In short, they could end up recycling their wrecked modules faster than the attackers can wreck the rest. We've already made some improvements internally and will continue to look into feedback from 4.10.
If you haven’t looked at it yet, stations are doing absurd damage towards destroyers too

SCA stations are fine but Xenon/Commonwealth stations pretty much delete destroyers off grid, my initial thought is possibly defense drone damage OOS?

Ive watched the starting HOP destroyer fleets get engaged with a station and lose every single time

It’s like you guys toned down damage OOS for ships but not stations

I just think stations should occasionally be destroyed… It keeps the economy dynamic to suddenly realize… oh suddenly there’s an engine part shortage Bc somewhere an engine part station got blown up even if you don’t realize it, there are knockon galaxy spanning effects to stations being destroyed that are beneficial to the immersion and life of the universe

Or even stations being constructed by the AI… Oh suddenly engine part sales are dropping… time to react to a new hole in the market for quantum tubes that the new factory placed on the universe

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Rei Ayanami » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 22:58

Suggestion, since the "station keeps rebuilding while being attacked"-problem seems to happen quite often:
Have stations remember the last time they got hit by an enemy.
When trying to start building/spawning a module for that station for construction, check if it has been more than 5 minutes since the last enemy hit.
If it has been longer than 5 minutes : Check building ressources and if have enough ressources, spawn module and start constructing.
If it has been less than 5 minutes since the last enemy attack : Wait another 5 minutes before checking again.

That means a station can not suddenly spawn new modules/start repairing destroyed modules while under fire (In-world explanation : Civilian construction workers won't work while being shot at :D ).

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by VincentTH » Wed, 29. Sep 21, 01:42

jlehtone wrote:
Sat, 25. Sep 21, 17:53
humility925 wrote:
Sat, 25. Sep 21, 07:59
... h asguard battleship from terran, that is hard to get as it's cost so much and lot of resource to product, I believe.
Small investment in Marines and Asgard is yours. Quite cheap. You might have to kill plenty of Terrans afterwards, but that I count as a bonus. :twisted:

I can't testify about the OOS demolition, for in our company the boss does important things personally. :roll:
But too bad we can't reverse-engineer the ship :-)

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Xenon_Slayer » Wed, 29. Sep 21, 11:56

Rei Ayanami wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 22:58
Suggestion, since the "station keeps rebuilding while being attacked"-problem seems to happen quite often:
Have stations remember the last time they got hit by an enemy.
There already is stuff in place to prevent recently wrecked modules being recycled soon after. There even is something attempting to prevent stations starting to repair during a battle, which was flawed in some situations, so it'll actually be removed. We're not looking to outright prevent stations rebuilding while under fire, as I'm sure some of you would hate to see that when it's happening to you. :P It's just that they could outpace the attackers unfairly, due to several factors. I'm being a bit vague because this stuff is still internal and we don't know if further changes will be made before it makes it into the wild.
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Re: OOS stations are near invincible

Post by Raevyan » Wed, 29. Sep 21, 12:24

Xenon_Slayer wrote:
Tue, 28. Sep 21, 15:49
Thanks for the reports. There are some issues, not exclusive to OOS combat, that may result in some stations being rather tough to kill. In short, they could end up recycling their wrecked modules faster than the attackers can wreck the rest. We've already made some improvements internally and will continue to look into feedback from 4.10.
Does this new build will also take 6 month like the oos combat fix for Xenons? I really want to play x4 again but you keep adding on bugs that make me stay away from doing it :/

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Alan Phipps » Wed, 29. Sep 21, 13:00

Berating a dev that has just promised some future help will always speed things up nicely. :wink:

Personally, I'm glad to know that they are on the case with this issue that does affect both general gameplay and a few plot missions in my game.
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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Cookieknabberer » Wed, 29. Sep 21, 13:34

I can only speak for me, but always feel free to get in touch with me on such issues!
We as players have a high interest to have a great game.
So if you need "customer feedback" as we call it in our company, I am happy to share it.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Old Drullo321 » Sun, 3. Oct 21, 14:26

https://abload.de/img/screenshot5897rjo0.png

Current record, 11k sieging a ZYA station Family Kritt. Station zero damage. From time to time a new K gets added and some Xenon S/M get obliteraded by the station. My universe came to a complete standstill because of this. I will fly my Asgard to them and quickly kill them, maybe the Xenon will try something else then. I can only guess but probably 30-40K wouldn't do a difference here.

It would be really cool to see some sort of intermediate fix/patch, something like 4.11 but if you have other plans, it will be fine too.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Old Drullo321 » Sun, 3. Oct 21, 15:56

Screenshot: https://abload.de/img/screenshot591f2jkv.png

And i brought this station in Family Zhinn down to 15% IS with a Syn plus some faction destroyers (ZYA and ARG), also killing every Xenon S transporter the last 20 minutes and killing the middle docking module. Every couple of minutes, or even seconds, IS, the station went up 10-20% just by repairing and building new modules. That is insane

Then i teleported to my Asgaard to kill the Xenon K mentioned in the post above. After only 2-3 minutes OOS the Xenon station went up to 58% and the same AI destroyers plus my 5* Syn aren't able to at least to match the repair speed of that station. That is just insane.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by paiku » Mon, 4. Oct 21, 05:43

I still think there are two problems.
1. Destroyers (Main Guns, L Turrets ?) don't do damage (or very little) OOS.
2. Stations rebuild their station modules very quickly (i've yet to see a station, that can't be destroyed when destroying build storage and killing all Xenon S).This is mostly a IS problem in my experience.

I've come to this conlcusion, because you can kill stations quickly with 30-50 M Ships OOS.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 4. Oct 21, 08:19

paiku wrote:
Mon, 4. Oct 21, 05:43
1. Destroyers (Main Guns, L Turrets ?) don't do damage (or very little) OOS.
If anything they deal too much damage as main batteries seem to be lacking hit chance logic like turrets have. This means that the main batteries of a destroyer are enough to swat S and M ships in low attention combat just by themselves.

This issue also applies to all guns, which is why you are finding 30-50 M ships so effective as that is a lot of guns that deal huge amounts of damage compared with turrets as they always hit the target.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by dholmstr » Mon, 4. Oct 21, 12:08

Well I just watch a paranid station in Litany of Fury (or whatever the name was with that red pulsating star) getting bellyflopped by 6 K's. Both OOS and IS was a stupidity to watch. OOS the station never died even with 0% and once I went into the system the K's shot almost all modules to bits and then the reset happen and all modules were in building face, promptly all K's fired everything and all modules exploded and station resets again...and again...and again. And everytime a module exploded the K's took some hit to turrets, luckily L turrets can take some beating. But it was dumb. Good that improvement is on it's way.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by paiku » Mon, 4. Oct 21, 16:40

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 4. Oct 21, 08:19
paiku wrote:
Mon, 4. Oct 21, 05:43
1. Destroyers (Main Guns, L Turrets ?) don't do damage (or very little) OOS.
If anything they deal too much damage as main batteries seem to be lacking hit chance logic like turrets have. This means that the main batteries of a destroyer are enough to swat S and M ships in low attention combat just by themselves.

This issue also applies to all guns, which is why you are finding 30-50 M ships so effective as that is a lot of guns that deal huge amounts of damage compared with turrets as they always hit the target.
Wow, so you are just telling me i am wrong ? So how can you explain whats going on in destroyers vs station combat OOS ? I've posted so much,uploaded saves, did videos to compare it and you just write that i am wrong. Thank you very much. This issue is around since 4.10 beta 5 and nobody seems to care about this gamebreaking bug. (Stale universe). In the Video, which i posted, you could also see destroyers circling around stations. So i was guessing, that they don't use their main cannons/turrets or at least don't hit starions with it.

Go on and show me how destroyers hit stations with the main cannons OOS.

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Re: OOS stations are near invincible - Improvements in a build after 4.10 release.

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 4. Oct 21, 22:16

paiku wrote:
Mon, 4. Oct 21, 16:40
So how can you explain whats going on in destroyers vs station combat OOS ?
They orbit the stations so their main batteries, which can only fire in the quadrant in front of the ship, are not pointing at the station. As such only the turrets are hitting the station.

Try manually parking the destroyer facing the station using hold position default order and no orders once they are in position. I did this with my personal Syn and it killed a "near invincible" XEN Solar Power Station with 0% hull in roughly 10 minutes while I did other stuff.
paiku wrote:
Mon, 4. Oct 21, 16:40
In the Video, which i posted, you could also see destroyers circling around stations. So i was guessing, that they don't use their main cannons/turrets or at least don't hit starions with it.
When circling they do not as the main batteries only damage stuff in the quarter in front of the ship, and the ship is not pointing at the station.

You can see how overpowered main batteries are in low attention combat by using the same approach to park 3-5 syns with only main batteries (no turrets installed) pointing at a Xenon gate. As soon as Xenon S and M ships show up they instantly explode. If 7-11 Syns were used pointing at the same location even Ks would seemingly instantly explode.

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