Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

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Panos
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Panos » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 01:34

Malchar wrote:
Wed, 22. Sep 21, 20:58
K ; I gave it, normal number of shields, to protect its armement. Shields had been changed from mk1 to mk2 model. K gain a XL thruster instead of the L it had. It seems fair to me since it is a XL ship. Armement had been slightly raise from 6 larges turrets and 7 medium, to 7 and 11. bottom large turrets are now on the flanks.

I ; I gave it, its normal shield dotation. Some battery had only the quater of the normal shields number to protect turrets. It is the reason why xenons capital are/were so easy to defang.
If at least this is fixed, because is a bug they do not have full module installed, the Xenon will have a chance.

Imho Egosoft needs to take into account that Asgards are everywhere now. Need to buff the Xenon. Or if they do not want to do it for new player, add a game option in settings to use a beefed stronger Xenon option.

Treycore
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon, 12. Apr 21, 12:42

Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Treycore » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 04:22

Panos wrote:
Thu, 23. Sep 21, 01:34
Malchar wrote:
Wed, 22. Sep 21, 20:58
K ; I gave it, normal number of shields, to protect its armement. Shields had been changed from mk1 to mk2 model. K gain a XL thruster instead of the L it had. It seems fair to me since it is a XL ship. Armement had been slightly raise from 6 larges turrets and 7 medium, to 7 and 11. bottom large turrets are now on the flanks.

I ; I gave it, its normal shield dotation. Some battery had only the quater of the normal shields number to protect turrets. It is the reason why xenons capital are/were so easy to defang.
If at least this is fixed, because is a bug they do not have full module installed, the Xenon will have a chance.

Imho Egosoft needs to take into account that Asgards are everywhere now. Need to buff the Xenon. Or if they do not want to do it for new player, add a game option in settings to use a beefed stronger Xenon option.
I don’t think xenon being weak is a bug, I suspect it’s actually more a design decision

Waltz9
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Waltz9 » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 08:01

Just install a mod which improves the yields of astroids and you will have lots more xenon in your universe.

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 17:11

I player mostly xenons since may, when it was obvious x4 became a sim city in the space. IIRC it was true starvation was a problem in V4 first versions, but it is no more today. It can happen but it is very marginal.
Instead to raise ressources amount in xenons s sectors, I personnaly chose to upgrade xenons s ability to collect the existing. It may also avoid players s greed, who will look xenons sectors as an eldorado and make it primary conquest target.

Panos
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Panos » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 22:04

Malchar wrote:
Wed, 22. Sep 21, 20:58
I m in test phase for a little mod for people who would like more active xenons. Target is to recover a situation like in the 3.xx. I chose the 3.2 which differe from the 3.3 with the surfaces elements s destruction, more frequent than in the 3.3.

I have raise xenon capital ships numbers in jobs, but tests prove I probably exagerated a bit. Xenons were not more number at the 3.2 than they are at the 4.1, despite they have more territory to defend and attack, and also have 2 more factions to fight.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2608768554

It is the situation after 48 hours. the void, getsu and the asteroid belt, for exemple had fall before Hours 24. IIRC, usually in a 3.xx games, xenons s owned aound 3 to 5 battleship and about 45 to 50 destroyers. At Hours48, here they have 12 battleships and 79 destroyers. I probably negleted the hard cap, and will have to rework the jobs.

Aside that I made some change on xenons ships ; raise xenon N speed to 301, made the M a real heavy fighter allowing it 4 weapon and two shield instead of 2 / 1. Its speed had dropped to 257 however. Corvette P have now 4 weapons and three turrets, shields had been moved on its back and she have now two engine instead of one. Speed rise around 340. I feel it honnest for a corvette. Miner S up it s speed from 143 to 223 and its cargo from 9500 to 12750. S is the heaviest Medium miner by far. It also gained a mk2 drill instead of a MK1. Mk2 drill is 3 time more efficient than the mk1. I didnt add it more turret despite it can host several more ones.

K ; I gave it, normal number of shields, to protect its armement. Shields had been changed from mk1 to mk2 model. K gain a XL thruster instead of the L it had. It seems fair to me since it is a XL ship. Armement had been slightly raise from 6 larges turrets and 7 medium, to 7 and 11. bottom large turrets are now on the flanks.

I ; I gave it, its normal shield dotation. Some battery had only the quater of the normal shields number to protect turrets. It is the reason why xenons capital are/were so easy to defang.

L gravitron turrets lose around 30 per cent damage to gain around 30 per cent range. Bullet velocity slightly raised.

I added an upgunned version of the K and I, available in moderated number for xenons. they may be removed if I feel a threat for balance. My goal is to deliver an experience close to the 3.xx for the 4.xx. That means active xenons, but still destructible by cockpit players in dogfight.

It will probably be ready in some days after tests to verify balance.

I work on xenons mods since may, a large part of the work already existed.
Do you want to contact me to help you with testing and coding? If so please pm :)

Treycore
Posts: 134
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Treycore » Thu, 23. Sep 21, 23:00

Malchar wrote:
Wed, 22. Sep 21, 20:58
I m in test phase for a little mod for people who would like more active xenons. Target is to recover a situation like in the 3.xx. I chose the 3.2 which differe from the 3.3 with the surfaces elements s destruction, more frequent than in the 3.3.

I have raise xenon capital ships numbers in jobs, but tests prove I probably exagerated a bit. Xenons were not more number at the 3.2 than they are at the 4.1, despite they have more territory to defend and attack, and also have 2 more factions to fight.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2608768554

It is the situation after 48 hours. the void, getsu and the asteroid belt, for exemple had fall before Hours 24. IIRC, usually in a 3.xx games, xenons s owned aound 3 to 5 battleship and about 45 to 50 destroyers. At Hours48, here they have 12 battleships and 79 destroyers. I probably negleted the hard cap, and will have to rework the jobs.

Aside that I made some change on xenons ships ; raise xenon N speed to 301, made the M a real heavy fighter allowing it 4 weapon and two shield instead of 2 / 1. Its speed had dropped to 257 however. Corvette P have now 4 weapons and three turrets, shields had been moved on its back and she have now two engine instead of one. Speed rise around 340. I feel it honnest for a corvette. Miner S up it s speed from 143 to 223 and its cargo from 9500 to 12750. S is the heaviest Medium miner by far. It also gained a mk2 drill instead of a MK1. Mk2 drill is 3 time more efficient than the mk1. I didnt add it more turret despite it can host several more ones.

K ; I gave it, normal number of shields, to protect its armement. Shields had been changed from mk1 to mk2 model. K gain a XL thruster instead of the L it had. It seems fair to me since it is a XL ship. Armement had been slightly raise from 6 larges turrets and 7 medium, to 7 and 11. bottom large turrets are now on the flanks.

I ; I gave it, its normal shield dotation. Some battery had only the quater of the normal shields number to protect turrets. It is the reason why xenons capital are/were so easy to defang.

L gravitron turrets lose around 30 per cent damage to gain around 30 per cent range. Bullet velocity slightly raised.

I added an upgunned version of the K and I, available in moderated number for xenons. they may be removed if I feel a threat for balance. My goal is to deliver an experience close to the 3.xx for the 4.xx. That means active xenons, but still destructible by cockpit players in dogfight.

It will probably be ready in some days after tests to verify balance.

I work on xenons mods since may, a large part of the work already existed.
Keep us updated

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Fri, 24. Sep 21, 15:59

Treycore wrote:
Thu, 23. Sep 21, 23:00
Keep us updated
Technically there is no problem. It is on test 24 / 24. I try to calm dowm the xenons. My main problem is, each time, xenons primary target is the terran protectorat. The asteroid belt fall in less than 24 hours. I think it is a big problem because it is the last dlc and probably a lot of player wish to play terran. Segaris pioneers on an other hand are the only faction to never have trouble with xenons, at least in the first week. I wish to use the v3.2 - v3.3 parameters to avoid any reproach, despite these version are very harsh toward small ships. It is possible I need to tweak it a bit.

summary ; it is on it is last step ; the test phase.

SirConnery
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Joined: Mon, 10. Dec 18, 07:26

Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by SirConnery » Fri, 24. Sep 21, 17:33

You could try strengthening the Terran and see what happens.

Looking towards this mod with great interest.

Treycore
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon, 12. Apr 21, 12:42

Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Treycore » Fri, 24. Sep 21, 22:09

Malchar wrote:
Fri, 24. Sep 21, 15:59
Treycore wrote:
Thu, 23. Sep 21, 23:00
Keep us updated
Technically there is no problem. It is on test 24 / 24. I try to calm dowm the xenons. My main problem is, each time, xenons primary target is the terran protectorat. The asteroid belt fall in less than 24 hours. I think it is a big problem because it is the last dlc and probably a lot of player wish to play terran. Segaris pioneers on an other hand are the only faction to never have trouble with xenons, at least in the first week. I wish to use the v3.2 - v3.3 parameters to avoid any reproach, despite these version are very harsh toward small ships. It is possible I need to tweak it a bit.

summary ; it is on it is last step ; the test phase.
You could try adding a couple more intervention fleets to counteract the xenon

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Fri, 24. Sep 21, 22:59

[/quote]

You could try adding a couple more intervention fleets to counteract the xenon
[/quote]

It is what I did. I added one, then two heavy squads to guard the asteroid belt. The mars battleship job is the template for it. I now play on xenon main turret range. The good new is I only have to calm down the xenons and find a fair balance.

Panos
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Panos » Tue, 28. Sep 21, 11:39

oddible wrote:
Sun, 19. Sep 21, 20:55
What mod can I use that will make Xenon relevant again? The latest nerf has made them a non-factor. They're just a nuisance now, basiclaly Kha'k with sectors. I've looked at several of the mods on the workshop and they all either radically change the Xenon game or they have comments that say they actually make Xenon weaker. Which mod can I install that just puts them back the way they were before the nerf. They were perfect.

Ideally we need a Xenon slider in game setup that let's us set how strong their economy is and how aggressive they are. For now I'll take a mod but none seem to fit the bill.
The mod needs to be very carefully made not with brute force. I tried the mod @Malchar wrote. Different starts give different results for different reasons.

eg the TER Cadet start, Getsu Fune is populated by TER with their mighty fleets. XEN do not cross to Sol Asteroid Belt & Void

ARG start (Van Selton), with the mod, the XEN have field day. There is no TER force in Getsu Fune, just ANT barely trying to build a defense platform getting wiped and XEN pushing hard and unopposed by ARG/ANT.
Why this is happening? Because of the mining changes. If a player doesn't pick up to boost the ARG/ANT economy they will collapse. Argon Prime and surrounding sectors lack resources now. This keeps manufactured goods prices sky high, higher than buy price.
This forces the AI (and player) to move away from those sectors to trade. So the economy becomes stagnant, no ships are build and XEN are pushing hard.

The only faction that XEN is not much threat with the mod is HOP. Their economy-space is more compact spread in 5 sectors of which 2 have rich asteroid fields. They make ships fast enough to beat the XEN coming from Faulty Logic while pushing both PAR and ANT/ARG on their war.


I am not saying that XEN do not have issues.
a) Mining problem, as they lose hundreds of miners trying to cross into commonwealth space instead of mining at the asteroid fields in their controlled sectors.
This can be fixed by forcing the AI XEN to mine nearby instead having a miner from Matrix 9 go to Faulty Logic to mine or construct a station or the other way around! (yes is happening)

b) Starting Terran incursions in the game if you have COH installed. This is the second biggest issue as several TER fleets start XEN sectors. Faulty Logic & Matrix 9 or 451 guarantee to find TER attack group with Asgard, Tokyo, Osaka plus support ships. They wreck havoc since 4.0 which XEN never recover. This could be fixed by removing the incursion fleets at the start of the game! And those fleets move to other sectors. Last night saw a Tokyo coming from the Matrix 9 gate in Fires of Defeat within 30 minutes as started the FRF campaing. It was partially damaged. Usually they go down fast. Its Asgard companion probably cleaning Matrix 9 and 451 atm.

c) Xenon capital ship turrets and lack of main guns. Something everyone is complaining about since 4.1. The explosions are too big damaging the turrets which take forever to repair many, while many Xenon capitals do not start with secondary shields either. I saw this when HOP attack the PAR stations too. On the first module destruction turrets were destroyed in many capital ships (lost my frigate shield from the explosion). If HOP hadn't pushed more Ody in the sector and the destroyers didn't have main guns they would be standing still without guns! Like the XEN capitals do.

However having seen what could happen with the a brute force mod, I understand that Egosoft decided to do that otherwise because of the mining changes, a beefed Xenon will paint the map red.
Is very complex issue with many parameters :gruebel:

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Thu, 30. Sep 21, 08:32

I ended for now terran s tests. I started a cross check on argan side.

until then, some pictures of medium and small xenons ships, I enhanced a bit (imo). Originals s ones had invisibles engines and weapons. I added rocket launchers to xenon M to make it a true heavy fighter, but also to the corvette P which was, before that, the only corvette with only 2 weapons.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2613304474

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2613304313

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2613303998

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2610760377

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2610760377

Tharrg
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Tharrg » Fri, 1. Oct 21, 20:37

I am hoping that the next DLC, which has something to do with Pirates will make the game more interesting.

I do have a old 3.0 game I sometimes play, but mainly waiting for the next DLC to make them stronger.

atsmith66
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by atsmith66 » Sat, 2. Oct 21, 20:54

I have to agree with the above that Xenon activity is really not a threat in any sense of the word. I have, according to Steam, 804 hours in X4 now. In that time I have never seen any faction take over a single sector from another. The only things I have seen include:
  • The occasional Xenon defence platform and a few skirmishes here and there where some K's and rarely an I come and shoot a few things, possibly but very rarely destroying one station. Two Split stations were destroyed in the same sector exactly once in all that playing.
  • The Xenon frequently move into Frontier Edge but only because that's unpopulated.
  • If I wipe out the Xenon completely and don't put my own defence platform there, then neighbouring factions will build some stations there.
That's it. Nothing else has ever happened except my own fleets destroying and capturing sectors. I agree that X4 is very much Transport Tycoon or Sim City in space in that sense. It's very very safe once you learn the basics. There is no sense that there is any war on anywhere. And when I decide to move into a Xenon sector and start killing the stations it's a no brainer victory. That said, the changes that have made the Xenon defence drones way more deadly is a VERY welcome one and did mean I have to use fighters to protect my L class ships now.

I understand that creating a game where the Xenon (or any faction really) can win while not seeing the entire universe descend into Chaos is probably difficult. And it may even make the Universe too intimidating for some new players. But I would genuinely welcome a gameplay setting, perhaps off by default, that made the wars more than just a lore note in the encyclopaedia. Some sort of aggression that allows the player to make meaningful change.

Just imagine if you play as Argon, then see Hatikvah's Choice fall to the Xenon. How incredible would it be to have what you have built mean something as you use your own resources to drive the Xenon back out in a difficult series of battles and then watch as the Argon recover by rebuilding their stations relying now on your Behemoths for protection at the gate. That's REAL player difference right there. The same goes for other factions. Playing as one of the Paranid factions and being part of a war that results in change because of your actions. Perhaps the HOP push into holy order space just as you have your first capital ships on order? I'd imagine further where the faction sets a war target (take sector X). The other faction is doing the same. Now in that process as a player I can get rewarded for each enemy faction station destroyed and any stations I build there on behalf of my chosen side. That lets you become a hero in that war and feel like you're contributing to something meaningful. You could even go further and trigger a mission to destroy a specific enemy task force if it starts overwhelming a station. So without the player intervention the war will go as it may, but if the player can start weakening these task-forces then it's likely that the direction of the war could be halted, changed, or even accelerated.

I know, I know, but I can dream can't I?

I really love the economic play in this game. I have a huge respect for what Egosoft have achieved. Mining, building stations, and finally progressing to the post-money economy where my own wharfs and shipyards allow me unlimited potential is utterly fantastic. But I would love to play X4 as more than a casual economy simulator. I dream of the day when I can be a warlord against an enemy that will really fight back, or where I can help the Argon survive a slow but otherwise inevitable demise against a Xenon threat that's not all cute and cuddly.

DragonEye501
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by DragonEye501 » Wed, 6. Oct 21, 18:03

I agree with everything attsmith66 said. Real struggle really helps with the roleplay and storytelling that these games can offer. The idea that your a nobody with a little ship playing at the same level as everybody else is supposed to help create that challenge. If you get involved in a unwinnable war just due to unlucky circumstance that are out of your control well... that's how life happens sometimes. Games like Kenshi and M&B really do a great job at kicking your teeth in which makes each run that much more exciting and fun. Now there can be peaceful times too due to luckier circumstances but it should all be up to the whims of the simulation. But if the simulation leads to a peaceful playthrough with no sorta dynamic conflict or risk every time then what is the point of detailed simulation at all?

On another note I don't think X4 really succeeds at being a city builder either. Because conflict is what makes city builders entertaining to play as well. In city skylines the bigger you grow the harder it is to keep things stable. If you design your city poorly it will collapse and people will stop coming or if you really screwed up they'll actually leave! In X4 you just build a mega station with all the production modules... the only challenge is grinding out the cash... not really engaging or fun sounding is it. But what makes X4 interesting isn't just building factories but all of the stuff put together in one... neat... package.

Anyways, that's just my take. Rant over. :mrgreen:

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 10:10

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2621615560

Finally released. One more day of testing and I would vomit. It is a moderate version, even I feel it could be a bit harder the v3.xx situation which was the target.

Like said in the description, at the 3.xx xenons favorite targets were trade stations (hatikvah Hewa and Zura IV). Main target seems now to be shipyards, especially at Argon prime and Profit alpha center.

Like I added a squadron at asteroid belt to prevent a possible terrans early collapse, I have add a patrol fleet at Argon prime. However Behemoths are what they are, even if I took care about their shields and weapons options.

I hope It will be satisfying for most peoples, at least those who are unconfortable with Xenons apathy since the V4.0.

If I have something else to hope, it would be egosoft make this mod obsolete at the next version.

Mistle
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Mistle » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 12:57

Thanks a lot Malchar, for sure you put a lot of work to finnish it. :)
I don't use mods , play only vanilla game, but this mode will be first which I will install. 8)

Mistle
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Mistle » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 18:35

Just one question. :gruebel:
If Xenon is mostly eradicated from my plot any chance that this mod bring Xenon back or should I use another plot where they still exist ?

SirConnery
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by SirConnery » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 19:26

Malchar wrote:
Thu, 7. Oct 21, 10:10
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2621615560

Finally released. One more day of testing and I would vomit. It is a moderate version, even I feel it could be a bit harder the v3.xx situation which was the target.
Nice. Will definitely be starting a new game with this once a VRO compatible version is released. I'm hoping that's the case?

Malchar
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Re: Recommend a mod to put Xenon back to before the nerf please

Post by Malchar » Thu, 7. Oct 21, 19:47

I not too sure. VRO author have sometime be even more severe than egosoft on parameters and stats that led to xenons apathy.
What I want to say is a xenon rebirth for vro, would not be a simple addition vro compatible. I would have to go directly against VRO files, and sometime in the opposite direction. I feel it as an unhealthy situation.

Mistle wrote:
Thu, 7. Oct 21, 18:35
Just one question. :gruebel:
If Xenon is mostly eradicated from my plot any chance that this mod bring Xenon back or should I use another plot where they still exist ?
Most obvious answer is the second one. It may depend what is remaining to xenon of their original seven fiefs. Xenon have not the solidarity feeling to help a defeat fiefs to recover his territory.
You can try anyway, one tour actual plot, I have no reason to think it would cause troubles.
Last edited by Malchar on Thu, 7. Oct 21, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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