i knew it !!!

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Imperial Good
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 11:27

dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 04:39
What does S ship main guns have to do with L and XL ship's main guns? They are not the same, not by miles, and if they are using the same targeting, damage etc algorithms it is plainly wrong!!!!
Both are weapons that are implemented in a similar way using similarly formatted data. The mechanical differences are meant to be picked up from properties like projectile speed, size, turning rate, heat, e.t.c. Games usually work along principles of feeding data into an engine as computers are most efficient at processing such structured data. Adding hard-coded behaviour is generally bad practice.

What you said does hold true for entirely different types of data. For example ships compared with guns.

LameFox
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by LameFox » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 11:30

There have been a lot of weird issues IS and OOS with weapons it seems. But it was hard to identify exactly what's going wrong. I guess they didn't have enough information to patch it.
***modified***

dtpsprt
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by dtpsprt » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:41

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 11:27
dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 04:39
What does S ship main guns have to do with L and XL ship's main guns? They are not the same, not by miles, and if they are using the same targeting, damage etc algorithms it is plainly wrong!!!!
Both are weapons that are implemented in a similar way using similarly formatted data. The mechanical differences are meant to be picked up from properties like projectile speed, size, turning rate, heat, e.t.c. Games usually work along principles of feeding data into an engine as computers are most efficient at processing such structured data. Adding hard-coded behaviour is generally bad practice.

What you said does hold true for entirely different types of data. For example ships compared with guns.
It sounds correct but it is wrong.

A simple reason:

An S ship is, at least, 10 times more manoeuvreable than an L This means that it can position itself for a good hit 10 times more than an L in the same amount of time.

Also an S ship's guns have way more than triple the fire rate of the L and a third in cooling time.

Therefore L ships are sentenced to "death by a thousand cuts" while they lumber about to get a shot.

Adding insult to injury they also try to aim S ships with their guns(!!!) as if they are S ships themselves instead of completely ignoring them leaving their massive shields and turrets deal with the "pestilence". In the same category falls the case of getting into range of a Station's turrets, so they can bring their turrets to fire instead of using their "battering rams" of main weapons they have...

Imperial Good
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 15:00

dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:41
An S ship is, at least, 10 times more manoeuvreable than an L This means that it can position itself for a good hit 10 times more than an L in the same amount of time.
A few field changes and now the Asguard is more agile than a S ship.
dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:41
Also an S ship's guns have way more than triple the fire rate of the L and a third in cooling time.
A few field changes and now the PAR Main Battery shoots 16 shots per second that travel at 8 km/sec and never need to cooldown.

As such I am fairly certain I am correct. All ships share the same sorts of data like all weapons do.
dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 12:41
Adding insult to injury they also try to aim S ships with their guns(!!!) as if they are S ships themselves instead of completely ignoring them leaving their massive shields and turrets deal with the "pestilence". In the same category falls the case of getting into range of a Station's turrets, so they can bring their turrets to fire instead of using their "battering rams" of main weapons they have...
L and XL ship main batteries are some of the longest range weapons in X4.

The main issue you seem to be reporting here is AI related. In the case of AI logic there has to be a distinction made between controlling an L/XL entity, and a S entity. As the entities themselves are just data, nothing would stop a S ship being classed as XL so ending up controlled by the XL AI logic if a modder choose so.

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MegaJohnny
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by MegaJohnny » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 15:44

Like Imperial Good says, in X4 (for some purposes) a ship is simply a ship - it's the ship's individual properties that determine its performance in low attention combat.

It might be more accurate to formulate the problem as: there's an issue with main guns very-slow-turning ships in low attention.

Eyeklops
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by Eyeklops » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 17:42

While I agree with Imperial Good that the data structures are probably very similar across weapon sizes I see dtpsprt's point in that the AI should know the type of ship it's operating and optimize how it utilizes any attached firepower. Capitals shouldn't fire "the big guns" at a fly unless said fly is sitting still (which they rarely do).

Speaking from ignorance (of the codebase) but if the Capital main batteries have a data structure flag that switches the AI code branch for fire control we could very well see small/medium weapons working while caps do not. In the same line of thought if that data flag isn't working correctly we could also see Capitals maneuver trying to aim the main cannon like a small ship would.

dtpsprt
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by dtpsprt » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 19:31

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 15:00
L and XL ship main batteries are some of the longest range weapons in X4.

The main issue you seem to be reporting here is AI related. In the case of AI logic there has to be a distinction made between controlling an L/XL entity, and a S entity. As the entities themselves are just data, nothing would stop a S ship being classed as XL so ending up controlled by the XL AI logic if a modder choose so.
And this is where the currently used logic is at fault (with no hidden abandoned Odysseus as bonus):

Make one AI, responsible for all weapons of all ships, and face the problem of having (at best) a mediocrity everywhere.

Try to tweak something in this AI, say in the behaviour of M ship weapons, and risk (not to mention be sure) that it will have "aftereffects" in the other classes mostly unwanted.

On the other hand, start with copying one mediocre AI two more times, rename accordingly and tweak each one separately. What will you get?

Changes made in the behaviour of one class do not affect the others = 1/3 at least of bug creation and, therefore, fixing with every (surely necessary) tweak

Treycore
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by Treycore » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 20:56

I mean, the reason capitals aren’t doing damage to smaller craft is because 4.10 introduced new OOS values, they increased the chance to miss overall, and gave smaller ships a bonus defense value based on size/maneuverability… you can view the exact values in the parameters file in the libraries folder along with a comment section describing what they added for 4.10

I tweaked the values a bit more to my own liking

I just think stations are kinda broken OOS, they’re getting some sort of bonus whether intended or not, I watched a carrier fly within range of a station and get immediately deleted off the map

I also tested spawning 15 behemoth destroyers and setting them to attack a station and they barely did any damage to the station and died

SCA and pirate stations seem fine, they don’t really seem to do much damage and the destroyers will eventually win

I’ll probably tweak with the OOS values too see what’s causing the issue this weekend if it’s not patched by then

mediacenter
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Re: i knew it !!!

Post by mediacenter » Tue, 14. Sep 21, 22:15

Treycore wrote:
Tue, 14. Sep 21, 20:56
I mean, the reason capitals aren’t doing damage to smaller craft is because 4.10 introduced new OOS values, they increased the chance to miss overall, and gave smaller ships a bonus defense value based on size/maneuverability… you can view the exact values in the parameters file in the libraries folder along with a comment section describing what they added for 4.10

I tweaked the values a bit more to my own liking

I just think stations are kinda broken OOS, they’re getting some sort of bonus whether intended or not, I watched a carrier fly within range of a station and get immediately deleted off the map

I also tested spawning 15 behemoth destroyers and setting them to attack a station and they barely did any damage to the station and died

SCA and pirate stations seem fine, they don’t really seem to do much damage and the destroyers will eventually win

I’ll probably tweak with the OOS values too see what’s causing the issue this weekend if it’s not patched by then
capital dont doing damage overall

as i say they took several minutes to only scratch the shield of a K

20 asgard vs 1 k

the k attacked several times in a row while my ships doing the usual OOS derp dance
i mean in sector that ship will be vaporized in seconds even if you count only the turrets

other than that, reloading the same save, the same k managed to run away
the xenon spawn literally inside my gruop of ship and still managed to activate travel drive and go away untouched, with my asgard all pointing theyr nose to it but never shoot once

i tried with syn fleet and rattlesnake fleet, same shit
i tried to disband my fleet and order all my ship to attack in range, nope that didnt work either

i dont test the destroyer vs station situation, im really demoralized at the moment and didnt bother to play again until they fix this


see you in few months i suppose

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