Video: Raptor vs Asgard

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Ragnos28
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Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:58

Hello everybody :)

Do to recent discussions on the ES forums, I decided to settle the "Raptor vs Asgard" issue, once and for all.
This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z3zxfU8oY

Enjoy! :D

Meme Turtle
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Meme Turtle » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:10

Not quite sure what you are trying to prove here. That a swarm of fighters is effective vs lone capital ships? Or that Raptor can field a lot of fighters? Neither of these facts is new or secretive.

capitalduty
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by capitalduty » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:14

Next Time you could do ai vs ai battle with your raptor commandeered by one of your captains. Probably, same result, but you cannot compare your level of competence vs ai captains if you want to do "fair fight"

Awesome battle nevertheless!

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:19

Meme Turtle wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:10
Not quite sure what you are trying to prove here. That a swarm of fighters is effective vs lone capital ships? Or that Raptor can field a lot of fighters? Neither of these facts is new or secretive.
I just come from an argument "In what world does a raptor hold a candle to the Asgard?"...and I was like..really!?...and this video come as a result :D

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:29

capitalduty wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:14
Next Time you could do ai vs ai battle with your raptor commandeered by one of your captains. Probably, same result, but you cannot compare your level of competence vs ai captains if you want to do "fair fight"

Awesome battle nevertheless!
Thank you :)

That's a big no no...I don't trust the AI with anything in this game :mrgreen: Like I said, this clip was a result of an argument like...there is no way in hell a Raptor could beat an Asgard..no way..and now some poor terrans have paid with their lifes :doh:

I suppose there is a discussion to be had of how things would be if the factions carriers would have their full fighter complement and launch swarms of fighters if atacked :) Then faction carriers would not be such easy pickings for the player.

Meme Turtle
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Meme Turtle » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:00

I don't think Raptor has fired a single shot. Now do the same test without fighters. You can create custom start with 4.1 and use cheat mod for a quick test.

What would be an actually interesting test is to verify this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FajwRGamiHE

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:13

Meme Turtle wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:00
I don't think Raptor has fired a single shot. Now do the same test without fighters. You can create custom start with 4.1 and use cheat mod for a quick test.

What would be an actually interesting test is to verify this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FajwRGamiHE
Is ship capability vs ship capability. An Asgard have a main baterry and a Raptor has 100 fighters and 30 M ships capability. Look at the fighters as an extra set of turetts, if you will.

Why the hell a carrier would engage in a battery duel with a battleship? :gruebel:

Can you imagine the battle of Midway if the US Navy would had sent their carriers to exchange blows with the battleships of Imperial Japan? How would that work out?

I saw that clip, of course the player have a huge advantage against the AI, because the AI is abysmal..to quote you..."Neither of these facts is new or secretive"

jlehtone
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:25

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:29
I suppose there is a discussion to be had of how things would be if the factions carriers would have their full fighter complement and launch swarms of fighters if atacked :) Then faction carriers would not be such easy pickings for the player.
This.

I bounced the Terrans. They had 2-3 Patrol Tokyo's (with escorts), some Osaka/Syn fleets, various Katana squadrons, Falx ...
There probably were enough fighters for more than full complement of one Carrier and they were all over my ship (although after their capitals had died).
Some even had missiles (although many dumbfires missed), but effectively the player-flown, lone Asgard was invulnerable.

Factions lack numbers, ordnance, and tactics (i.e. do not pre-emptively swarm).


AI Asgard did wipe off 40 of my Balaurs in a blink OOS. How would your Chimeras fare OOS? (Last time I checked -- 3.30? -- missiles did nothing OOS.)
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Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:33

jlehtone wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:25
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 23:29
I suppose there is a discussion to be had of how things would be if the factions carriers would have their full fighter complement and launch swarms of fighters if atacked :) Then faction carriers would not be such easy pickings for the player.
This.

I bounced the Terrans. They had 2-3 Patrol Tokyo's (with escorts), some Osaka/Syn fleets, various Katana squadrons, Falx ...
There probably were enough fighters for more than full complement of one Carrier and they were all over my ship (although after their capitals had died).
Some even had missiles (although many dumbfires missed), but effectively the player-flown, lone Asgard was invulnerable.

Factions lack numbers, ordnance, and tactics (i.e. do not pre-emptively swarm).


AI Asgard did wipe off 40 of my Balaurs in a blink OOS. How would your Chimeras fare OOS? (Last time I checked -- 3.30? -- missiles did nothing OOS.)
Ohh..don't get me started on OOS calculations :D Nothing like seeing a wing of 20 torpedo boats, 108 torpedo each, using their entire complement of torpedoes just to bring down the shield of an Xenon K, OOS. That is 2.160 heavy torpedoes not being able to bring down a K. That was an expensive and time consuming refit :lol:
With fighters is even worse, if I send a 40 fighters against a FAF Rattlesnake, OOS, I would lose about 20. While in sector, 40..even 20 fighters will destroy the Rattle, w/o casualties :gruebel:

flywlyx
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by flywlyx » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 01:49

If it is a player controlled Asgard, it will travel drive onto Raptor's face, fire cannon, and battle is over.
Perfect proof of how bad the AI is.
Why the hell a carrier would engage in a battery duel with a battleship?
Travel drive is way faster comparing to reality, IOWA has a top speed of 36 knots something like 66 km/h, top speed battle ship. While P-51 Mustang has a top speed of 700km/h,10 times faster, that is how carriers avoid fighting with battleships. Now, in X4 most heavy fighters have very similar travel speed comparing to battleship, there is no way carrier could avoid fighting battle ship face to face.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31

flywlyx wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 01:49
If it is a player controlled Asgard, it will travel drive onto Raptor's face, fire cannon, and battle is over.
Perfect proof of how bad the AI is.
Why the hell a carrier would engage in a battery duel with a battleship?
Travel drive is way faster comparing to reality, IOWA has a top speed of 36 knots something like 66 km/h, top speed battle ship. While P-51 Mustang has a top speed of 700km/h,10 times faster, that is how carriers avoid fighting with battleships. Now, in X4 most heavy fighters have very similar travel speed comparing to battleship, there is no way carrier could avoid fighting battle ship face to face.
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)

Which reminds me, I have yet to try torpedoes wings for capital ships engagement and missile wings for S/M intercept, just 1 launcher to keep the bolt for self defence. Now I just have to see how many torpedoes can a Chimera carry with 1 Launcher :gruebel:

Edit: wow...a Chimera can carry 21 heavy torpedoes with 1 launcher :o Is settled then...time to see what torpedo wings can do...mister Asgard..were you at? :mrgreen:

Karmaticdamage
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Karmaticdamage » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 03:35

Nothing can defeat a raptor in a knife fight. Only way asgard can win is if it stays out of range. Not even counting its fighters, a raptor will shred anything in turret range.

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KextV8
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by KextV8 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 04:10

Lol, now do the one where the Player is controlling the Asgard and instakills the Raptor before it can even launch its fighters?

Meme Turtle
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Meme Turtle » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 04:38

Karmaticdamage wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 03:35
Nothing can defeat a raptor in a knife fight. Only way asgard can win is if it stays out of range. Not even counting its fighters, a raptor will shred anything in turret range.
I believe that was the original dispute, not 100 fighters vs Asgard.

Raylak
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Raylak » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:45

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:58
Hello everybody :)

Do to recent discussions on the ES forums, I decided to settle the "Raptor vs Asgard" issue, once and for all.
This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z3zxfU8oY

Enjoy! :D
So I go back to exactly what I said originally, so 100 S and 30 M fitted to kill capitals can kill an Asgard. Especially when it's an AI Asgard that is trying to kill your fighters itself. If I could be bothered I'd load up a save where I'm flying an Asgard and go find some friendly Split Raptor. I bet I'd kill it before it's fighters even engaged me properly, then just let my own fighters pick off it's support craft as I drift away.

So the point still stands, an Asgard will take a Raptor down in a 'fair fight', Artificial Stupidity not withstanding.

gorman2040
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by gorman2040 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:59

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)

Which reminds me, I have yet to try torpedoes wings for capital ships engagement and missile wings for S/M intercept, just 1 launcher to keep the bolt for self defence. Now I just have to see how many torpedoes can a Chimera carry with 1 Launcher :gruebel:

Edit: wow...a Chimera can carry 21 heavy torpedoes with 1 launcher :o Is settled then...time to see what torpedo wings can do...mister Asgard..were you at? :mrgreen:
I've tried with a wing of 10 Nemesis equipped with 5 torpedo launchers and it's quick for taking out a K alone, there is probably some fun to have when creating defence fleet to escort them, should there be fighters accompanying the Xenon capitals.
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flywlyx
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by flywlyx » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 06:51

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.
Asgard's main cannon has faster speed and longer range, and it also has 40 fighter storage with up to 16 L tracking turrets, I don't think 100 Chimera has that many chances to protect the raptor from Asgard getting into 14km range.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)
The major benefit of carriers in real life is efficiency, they have much faster speed and much higher firepower delivery capability. But battleship in-game has fighter storage too, it is not really the battleship in real life, while it has higher missile storage and bigger gun, the major disadvantage is it can't repair fighters.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 07:27

Meme Turtle wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 04:38
Karmaticdamage wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 03:35
Nothing can defeat a raptor in a knife fight. Only way asgard can win is if it stays out of range. Not even counting its fighters, a raptor will shred anything in turret range.
I believe that was the original dispute, not 100 fighters vs Asgard.
Like I said, the Raptor has 100 fighters the same way the Asgard has the main battery. If the Asgard is not "naked", I will not send the Raptor "naked". Uhh...send the Raptor w/o fighters...ok..send the Asgard w/o main battery, if you are going about "let remove the capabilities from ships, just because" route.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 08:32

Raylak wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:45
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:58
Hello everybody :)

Do to recent discussions on the ES forums, I decided to settle the "Raptor vs Asgard" issue, once and for all.
This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z3zxfU8oY

Enjoy! :D
So I go back to exactly what I said originally, so 100 S and 30 M fitted to kill capitals can kill an Asgard. Especially when it's an AI Asgard that is trying to kill your fighters itself. If I could be bothered I'd load up a save where I'm flying an Asgard and go find some friendly Split Raptor. I bet I'd kill it before it's fighters even engaged me properly, then just let my own fighters pick off it's support craft as I drift away.

So the point still stands, an Asgard will take a Raptor down in a 'fair fight', Artificial Stupidity not withstanding.
Hmm...I would not call Chimeras with 1 missile launcher "fitted to kill capitals", sure it helps, but If I wanted to go "capital ship killer" role, I could just go for heavy torpedoes :)
Anywho, all I did was to prove that maybe there is a way for the Raptor to "hold a candle to the Asgard" 8) As for your point standing, any fight in which one ship has player input is not a ...fair fight. You should have mention that an AI control Raptor would lose to an AI controled Asgard (and even that is not a sure thing) not go the...is impossible in any circumstance for a Raptor to defeat an Asgard, no way, no how, never going to happen...route. Because, if not, sure, a player controlled Asgard would destroy the Raptor...and a player control Raptor would destroy an Asgard, and no one would argue that.

I would argue that, in player hands, the Raptor is better that the Asgard, because it is the one ship that has the capability to deal with 1 Branch 9 I, 5 K's, escorts of S/M ships, all at once (sure, it rely on his fighters to do so, but...wait for it...IT IS A CARRIER :mrgreen:), only falling short in station busting capabilities and that only in regard of the time it takes to reduce the station to dust.
Last edited by Ragnos28 on Sun, 12. Sep 21, 10:03, edited 7 times in total.

Ragnos28
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 09:01

flywlyx wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 06:51
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.
Asgard's main cannon has faster speed and longer range, and it also has 40 fighter storage with up to 16 L tracking turrets, I don't think 100 Chimera has that many chances to protect the raptor from Asgard getting into 14km range.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)
The major benefit of carriers in real life is efficiency, they have much faster speed and much higher firepower delivery capability. But battleship in-game has fighter storage too, it is not really the battleship in real life, while it has higher missile storage and bigger gun, the major disadvantage is it can't repair fighters.
This give me flashbacks of me looking at the Behemoth, finding that it can carry 40 fighters and going...how? where are they store? they teleport inside when is time to come from internal storage? How the fluff? :lol:
And how quick I dismiss the idea of using the Behemoth as a "pocket" carrier, seeing how slow the fighters came out :D I can imagine the Asgard being equally slow in launching his internally store fighters. :)

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