Video: Raptor vs Asgard

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gorman2040
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by gorman2040 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:59

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)

Which reminds me, I have yet to try torpedoes wings for capital ships engagement and missile wings for S/M intercept, just 1 launcher to keep the bolt for self defence. Now I just have to see how many torpedoes can a Chimera carry with 1 Launcher :gruebel:

Edit: wow...a Chimera can carry 21 heavy torpedoes with 1 launcher :o Is settled then...time to see what torpedo wings can do...mister Asgard..were you at? :mrgreen:
I've tried with a wing of 10 Nemesis equipped with 5 torpedo launchers and it's quick for taking out a K alone, there is probably some fun to have when creating defence fleet to escort them, should there be fighters accompanying the Xenon capitals.
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by flywlyx » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 06:51

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.
Asgard's main cannon has faster speed and longer range, and it also has 40 fighter storage with up to 16 L tracking turrets, I don't think 100 Chimera has that many chances to protect the raptor from Asgard getting into 14km range.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)
The major benefit of carriers in real life is efficiency, they have much faster speed and much higher firepower delivery capability. But battleship in-game has fighter storage too, it is not really the battleship in real life, while it has higher missile storage and bigger gun, the major disadvantage is it can't repair fighters.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 07:27

Meme Turtle wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 04:38
Karmaticdamage wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 03:35
Nothing can defeat a raptor in a knife fight. Only way asgard can win is if it stays out of range. Not even counting its fighters, a raptor will shred anything in turret range.
I believe that was the original dispute, not 100 fighters vs Asgard.
Like I said, the Raptor has 100 fighters the same way the Asgard has the main battery. If the Asgard is not "naked", I will not send the Raptor "naked". Uhh...send the Raptor w/o fighters...ok..send the Asgard w/o main battery, if you are going about "let remove the capabilities from ships, just because" route.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 08:32

Raylak wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:45
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:58
Hello everybody :)

Do to recent discussions on the ES forums, I decided to settle the "Raptor vs Asgard" issue, once and for all.
This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z3zxfU8oY

Enjoy! :D
So I go back to exactly what I said originally, so 100 S and 30 M fitted to kill capitals can kill an Asgard. Especially when it's an AI Asgard that is trying to kill your fighters itself. If I could be bothered I'd load up a save where I'm flying an Asgard and go find some friendly Split Raptor. I bet I'd kill it before it's fighters even engaged me properly, then just let my own fighters pick off it's support craft as I drift away.

So the point still stands, an Asgard will take a Raptor down in a 'fair fight', Artificial Stupidity not withstanding.
Hmm...I would not call Chimeras with 1 missile launcher "fitted to kill capitals", sure it helps, but If I wanted to go "capital ship killer" role, I could just go for heavy torpedoes :)
Anywho, all I did was to prove that maybe there is a way for the Raptor to "hold a candle to the Asgard" 8) As for your point standing, any fight in which one ship has player input is not a ...fair fight. You should have mention that an AI control Raptor would lose to an AI controled Asgard (and even that is not a sure thing) not go the...is impossible in any circumstance for a Raptor to defeat an Asgard, no way, no how, never going to happen...route. Because, if not, sure, a player controlled Asgard would destroy the Raptor...and a player control Raptor would destroy an Asgard, and no one would argue that.

I would argue that, in player hands, the Raptor is better that the Asgard, because it is the one ship that has the capability to deal with 1 Branch 9 I, 5 K's, escorts of S/M ships, all at once (sure, it rely on his fighters to do so, but...wait for it...IT IS A CARRIER :mrgreen:), only falling short in station busting capabilities and that only in regard of the time it takes to reduce the station to dust.
Last edited by Ragnos28 on Sun, 12. Sep 21, 10:03, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 09:01

flywlyx wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 06:51
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Well, the same way, a player controlled Raptor would travel drive behind the Asgard, target the only engine with the L plasma turetts, then bye bye Asgard, plenty of time to launch the fighters to finish the job...you know with Asgard not being exactly the most agile ship in the game. :wink: Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.
Asgard's main cannon has faster speed and longer range, and it also has 40 fighter storage with up to 16 L tracking turrets, I don't think 100 Chimera has that many chances to protect the raptor from Asgard getting into 14km range.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31

Historically speaking, carriers have brought the end of the battleships, Japan navy was pretty much scrap after the loss of their carriers. On that note..can you imagine if in game, fighters on carriers, could swich from missiles complement to torpedoes according to target (like real fighters on carriers) :mrgreen: Uf course, that would require the carriers in game to be able to carry missiles and torpedoes, like real carriers :gruebel: and being able to swich launchers for carriers base fighters :gruebel: (maybe something that aux ships would be able to do)
The major benefit of carriers in real life is efficiency, they have much faster speed and much higher firepower delivery capability. But battleship in-game has fighter storage too, it is not really the battleship in real life, while it has higher missile storage and bigger gun, the major disadvantage is it can't repair fighters.
This give me flashbacks of me looking at the Behemoth, finding that it can carry 40 fighters and going...how? where are they store? they teleport inside when is time to come from internal storage? How the fluff? :lol:
And how quick I dismiss the idea of using the Behemoth as a "pocket" carrier, seeing how slow the fighters came out :D I can imagine the Asgard being equally slow in launching his internally store fighters. :)

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 09:31

KextV8 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 04:10
Lol, now do the one where the Player is controlling the Asgard and instakills the Raptor before it can even launch its fighters?
What would that prove? That a carrier should not engage a battleship in closed range? Or that a player controlled ship is OP? In other news, water is wet, read all about it :mrgreen:

Hell, you would not even need an Asgard, I'm pretty sure that an Rattlesnake could destroy an Raptor before it can even launch its fighters. :D

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 11:04

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 02:31
Even if you are behind the "wheel" of your Asgard, given the AA capability that it has, you would not fare well against a 100 Chimera, missile launchers equip or not.
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 09:31
Hell, you would not even need an Asgard, I'm pretty sure that an Rattlesnake could destroy an Raptor before it can even launch its fighters. :D
TER Patrol Tokyo (in its prime) has 65 Gladius/Kukri in its fleet and an Osaka. They don't stand a chance against (all Beams) player-flown Asgard. Would 100 Chimera be substantially tougher? Escorts of three Tokyos (probably underfitted) could not seriously damage (PAR L Plasma, M Beam) player-flown Asgard ...

However, the Tokyo does not have 65 fighters to launch. They have some five(?) Gladius. The other 60 escort those "carrier fighters" and do not dock.
It is even possible that once the Tokyo and five Gladius have already died in instant, the escorts finally wake up and "head home", probably to serve the next patrol.

How would Raptor look, if each fighter in it had 3-6 escorts like the NPC order of battles do? Raptor with 700 Chimeras ...

Technically a Raptor can carry 121 fighters: 100 in cargo and 21 on pads. 43 for Asgard: 40 in cargo and 3 on bays.


ZYA took beating at start. Only after careful spoon-feeding did they manage to (re)build a Raptor. That "Flagship" did sail to face handful of ARG S/M ... and died (OOS, pre-4.00). It had a whopping two fighters in its fleet ...


The Void. I have waited in there for TER Intervention fleet to pass through the asteroid belt and seen how they (Falx, Gladius, Kukri) melt. Carrier could carry. Hazards will change in 4.1, won't they?
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 11:47

jlehtone wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 11:04
The Void. I have waited in there for TER Intervention fleet to pass through the asteroid belt and seen how they (Falx, Gladius, Kukri) melt. Carrier could carry. Hazards will change in 4.1, won't they?
That is a concern for me :gruebel: In my terran fleet I have 20 Jian asign to defend a aux ship and 20 torpedo falx asign to atack with it (I do this because if I asign M ships to a carrier, they would try to land on it causing a lot of problems). My concern is that if hazards will affect M ships OOS as well, that means that is the end for using M ships in a fleet composition :?: Especially considering that my shipyard is in Getsu Fune, so in all my fleet sorties I need to go through The Void :gruebel: Will I be forced to rely only on carriers in the sense that I will have to replace the torpedo boats with wings of torpedo equip fighters? :gruebel:

Now, on regards of fighter usage by the factions. I would like for the AI to use the fighters more aggressively, have them target turetts and engine, justifing having my own fighter wings for protection, not just rolling my Asgard and clearing Xenon or faction sectors just with it (which I did).

@jlehtone Would 100 Chimera be substantially tougher? Honestly, I would be rather concern if they would atack my personally flown Asgard. With the same loadout like my own Chimeras? Definetally concern :P
I still remember when I first build an Asgard, went to the nearest Xenon shipyard, start blasting it in closed range...have surprise pikachu face when the drone swarm start taking out my turetts and engine :o...and those were drones not fighters.

Ahh..on the subject of terran fighters? Yeah, their dps is laughable. I don't use them against capitals. In my terran fleet, fighters intercept S/M ships and that is all they do, for capital engagements I use destroyers or..a favorite of mine...torpedo boats :D

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:13

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 00:13
Why the hell a carrier would engage in a battery duel with a battleship? :gruebel:
Good question! Maybe someone would ask why a Raptor even has those turrets she obviously won't ever gonna use? Those 100xChimera would fare better without a Raptor.
Raptor is, IMO, not a great carrier, just some mediocre ship with an identity crisis. A carrier playing pretend battleship? Or a battleship without main battery, with pathetic turret range, near-zero shielding and laughable speed. She can't deploy fast enough (no launch tubes), arrive in time (only one weak engine) or take a hit if by some Artificial Idiot brilliancy she wanders close to an enemy station and its L-turrets (most probably XEN Graviton Turrets, but PAR Plasma are also dangerous). I think Colossus is better carrier -- just a carrier without battleship ambitions.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:57

Alm888 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:13
I think Colossus is better carrier -- just a carrier without battleship ambitions.
I agree :wink:

Prior to Split Vendetta, Colossus was my "to go to" carrier. The problem with it is that his 40 fighters are not enough to tackle the xenon invasion force of 1 Xenon branch I, 5 K's and M/S escorts (I keep giving this example becasue is a great battle to have in game, keep on happening in teladi sectors, more or less in that configuration). If an Colossus encounter such a force, or just a single I for that matter, it would need the suport of an fleet (which makes it a more "realistic" carrier). The same would happen if you need to destroy stations, a conventional fleet would be required.

Now on the Raptor. If I have a problem with it, is that it renders the idea of fleets, absolete. With his 100 fighters complement, no in game fleet, Xenon or the factions, will ever be a threat. On one hand, is really fun to operate, on the other hand is an "jack of all trades" ship, an concept that I don't like. Add to that the fact that if you put plasma on the L turetts, you can clear xenon sectors just with it (it can tackle that xenon shipyard, the hardest target in the game), makes it a big "I WIN" button, on the same footing with the Asgard (they were basically the "candy" to make you buy the DLC's).

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:04

Using fighters, quite disappointing.

We all know the Raptor can solo the Asguard just by flying behind it, outside of where its main batteries can fire.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:20

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:04
Using fighters, quite disappointing.

We all know the Raptor can solo the Asguard just by flying behind it, outside of where its main batteries can fire.
Yeah, I know...but no carrier of mine will ever be use as an destroyer or battleship, gosh damit :lol: Well, except for the ocasional station that needs to go boom :mrgreen:
Last edited by Ragnos28 on Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:21

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:04
We all know the Raptor can solo the Asguard just by flying behind it, outside of where its main batteries can fire.
So can Phoenix; the Asgard has nothing but its rudder to guard its ****^H^H rear. :roll:
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:23

jlehtone wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:21
Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:04
We all know the Raptor can solo the Asguard just by flying behind it, outside of where its main batteries can fire.
So can Phoenix; the Asgard has nothing but its rudder to guard its ****^H^H rear. :roll:
That would be the supreme humiliation for Asgard supremacists :lol:

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Alm888 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:44

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:57
Prior to Split Vendetta, Colossus was my "to go to" carrier. The problem with it is that his 40 fighters are not enough to tackle the xenon invasion force of 1 Xenon branch I, 5 K's and M/S escorts (I keep giving this example becasue is a great battle to have in game, keep on happening in teladi sectors, more or less in that configuration). If an Colossus encounter such a force, or just a single I for that matter, it would need the suport of an fleet (which makes it a more "realistic" carrier). The same would happen if you need to destroy stations, a conventional fleet would be required.
Yes, Colossus has pitiful attack power per se. And 4 M-class docking bays, each of which can hold a Jian with M-Plasma turret x6. And we have a battery of 24 M-Plasma turrets. :)
Other than that, I think 10xBehemoth work wonders: they can pound stations from 10km with main batteries and (if equipped with ARG M-Flak/L-Beam) provide anti-air… er… space? cover for the Carrier (not that a Colossus needs it that much with 3xXL-Shield Generator; only to protect the engines).
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:57
With his 100 fighters complement, no in game fleet, Xenon or the factions, will ever be a threat.
With 100xfighters nothing would be a threat, no matter with a carrier or not. You could use an Atlas or even a Honshu for that matter. After all, the sole purpose of the "Big Mommy" is to restock ammunition and repair hull. So… why not using the most suited ship?
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 13:57
On one hand, is really fun to operate, on the other hand is an "jack of all trades" ship, an concept that I don't like. Add to that the fact that if you put plasma on the L turetts, you can clear xenon sectors just with it (it can tackle that xenon shipyard, the hardest target in the game), makes it a big "I WIN" button, on the same footing with the Asgard (they were basically the "candy" to make you buy the DLC's).
We know, a XEN shipyard is not the most difficult target. Graviton Turrets lack range (only 6.5km), so any Plasma turret (even Split one) would work. Paranid defense platforms, on the other hand, are entirely different story. There are approximately 70 L-Plasma turrets with ~10km range. I personally would not dare approach such a station on a Raptor (even if I was of a mind that a Raptor is a viable siege craft on her own). ;)
Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:04
We all know the Raptor can solo the Asguard(sic) just by flying behind it, outside of where its main batteries can fire.
We all know an Asgard can be soloed by a Takoba with 1xBlast Mortar + 1xBurst Ray by just wiping out all its equipment (and slaughtering all 2 repair drones) before pounding its victim with mortar blasts. :)
Almost everything is golden in player's hands.

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:59

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 14:23
That would be the supreme humiliation for Asgard supremacists :lol:
Is, not would be. The best part is that they have plenty of time to write home about it while they helplessly watch the inevitability. There are fates worse that quick death. :twisted:
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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Karmaticdamage » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 15:39

Raylak wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 05:45
Ragnos28 wrote:
Sat, 11. Sep 21, 22:58
Hello everybody :)

Do to recent discussions on the ES forums, I decided to settle the "Raptor vs Asgard" issue, once and for all.
This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Z3zxfU8oY

Enjoy! :D
So I go back to exactly what I said originally, so 100 S and 30 M fitted to kill capitals can kill an Asgard. Especially when it's an AI Asgard that is trying to kill your fighters itself. If I could be bothered I'd load up a save where I'm flying an Asgard and go find some friendly Split Raptor. I bet I'd kill it before it's fighters even engaged me properly, then just let my own fighters pick off it's support craft as I drift away.

So the point still stands, an Asgard will take a Raptor down in a 'fair fight', Artificial Stupidity not withstanding.
By fair do you mean the asgard pointing its XL laser at the raptor from 14km away while flying in reverse to get in as many free shots as possible? Because that's the only way its winning. AI is dumb and doesn't fit the proper turrets. A proper fit raptor will take on and win against multiple asgards in a turret range fight. Too bad this game doesn't have pvp, so we could really test this. I imagine it would be a lot of raptors tanking the XL laser, followed by a lot of dead asgards. Even without mods, a raptor can take multiple super laser hits. A zeus or colossus with 4x jians docked can out dps an asgard in a knife fight, what makes you think it could take on a raptor?

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 17:27

I'm curious, why specifically a Raptor? Any L or XL can do exactly the same job if you're only using the weapons on the fighters. Raptor may be able to carry a lot of them, but most are simply not needed. You don't need 100+ to defeat an Asgard, 30 fighters are more than enough (just tested with Eclipses, armed with 2x Plasma & 2x Heavy Swarm launchers). Since that's the case what's the advantage of using a Raptor? Surely one of the carriers with fast launch tubes (e.g. Colossus) would be better for this, since it can deploy it's fighters much faster & it's a hell of a lot cheaper too (around 1/3 the price/resource requirements to build one).

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by Ragnos28 » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 19:18

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 17:27
I'm curious, why specifically a Raptor? Any L or XL can do exactly the same job if you're only using the weapons on the fighters. Raptor may be able to carry a lot of them, but most are simply not needed. You don't need 100+ to defeat an Asgard, 30 fighters are more than enough (just tested with Eclipses, armed with 2x Plasma & 2x Heavy Swarm launchers). Since that's the case what's the advantage of using a Raptor? Surely one of the carriers with fast launch tubes (e.g. Colossus) would be better for this, since it can deploy it's fighters much faster & it's a hell of a lot cheaper too (around 1/3 the price/resource requirements to build one).
Well..it all started with the statement "In what world does a raptor hold a candle to the Asgard"...and this is me lighting the candle and giving it to the Raptor to hold it :lol: ...and being a some what history buff in regards to the Battle of the Pacific...I wanted to recreate the duel between the Yamato battleship (the bigest battleship ever build) and US navy carriers ....in X4 universe :mrgreen: That, and showcasing the tactical flexibility the Raptor offers against the most powerfull fleets existing in the game (terran intervention corps in this instance).

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Re: Video: Raptor vs Asgard

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 12. Sep 21, 19:46

Ragnos28 wrote:
Sun, 12. Sep 21, 19:18
Well..it all started with the statement "In what world does a raptor hold a candle to the Asgard"...and this is me lighting the candle and giving it to the Raptor to hold it :lol: ...and being a some what history buff in regards to the Battle of the Pacific...I wanted to recreate the duel between the Yamato battleship (the bigest battleship ever build) and US navy carriers ....in X4 universe :mrgreen: That, and showcasing the tactical flexibility the Raptor offers against the most powerfull fleets existing in the game (terran intervention corps in this instance).
Fair enough. Tend to agree with your general point, battleship < carrier full of fighters.

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