Do you feel the move to main weapon destroyers was successful?

[Axeface]

Back when the game first released it was stated that egosoft wanted capital ships to be fun, that nobody wanted to pilot slow capital ships, and at the time that meant giving them main guns and not relegating them to turret gameplay.
I personally think that main weapons on destroyers do not 'feel' good, they are fairly effective, but the sounds, mechanics and effects do not make them feel at all enjoyable to use. They are quite 'pew pewey'. To add this this, we have been putting up with issues with the AI's ability to use these main weapons since the games release and these problems are still plaguing in-sector gameplay to this day.
There is also zero variety or choice when it comes to destroyer main batteries. For me it is all very stale.
Egosoft, do you feel like this approach has been a success? Perhaps we may be reaching a time where this can be revisited? Forum-goers, what do you think?

[GCU Grey Area]

I like them. They've resolved the main issue I had with capitals in previous X games (my trigger finger always got bored, so rarely flew anything bigger than M6). Although do wish there was a bit more variety to them (e.g. L beam emitter, missile launchers, etc). Lack of choice of L class main weapons is the only real gripe I have with them.

[Raylak]

Destroyers, well the Osaka and Syn as that's all I've personally played with feel fine, reasonably maneuverable for their size, a literal boatload of firepower. They feel like what I would expect a destroyer class spaceship to be. They definitely shouldn't have as much hanger space as they do but that is relatively meaningless anyway. Different weapon types would be nice, heavy torpedos, artillery cannons and spinal mount beam weapons would all help to keep things interesting but should be balanced to be relatively similar in power, perhaps make slow firing artillery better for punching through stationary targets while the current rapid fire 'autocannons' are more for destroyer v destroyer.

Of all the ship classes destroyers are the one that feels right. Carriers feel pointless, as fighter/bomber wings can fly from 1 side of the universe to the other without aid. Battleships to me should have the firepower of several destroyers plus be bristling with anti fighter and anti medium turrets. With the exception of the Asgard's main beam, a battleship just feels like a destroyers slightly bigger brother.

I read in another post somewhere that the Dev's wanted to reduce the difference in ships due to their size/class but if that's true, I feel that's exactly the opposite. Yes flying a capital is going to feel slow, it SHOULD in my opinion. These types of ships should be strategically placed across an empire's holdings and deployed for major engagements along with a fleet of support ships.

[LameFox]

I don't hate them but they still feel like the X3 M7 class to me. I'm glad they've started adding bigger ships.

Sadly even the largest ships do feel a bit feeble because of how ineffective vanilla turrets are. Really seems like they leaned hard into prioritizing fighter gameplay, but unfortunately the mechanics of fighter combat feel a bit dated and lukewarm so neither one ended up entirely satisfying.

[Falcrack]

I don't hate them but they still feel like the X3 M7 class to me. I'm glad they've started adding bigger ships.

Sadly even the largest ships do feel a bit feeble because of how ineffective vanilla turrets are. Really seems like they leaned hard into prioritizing fighter gameplay, but unfortunately the mechanics of fighter combat feel a bit dated and lukewarm so neither one ended up entirely satisfying.

Playing VRO with XR ship pack, L sized destroyers really do feel like X3 M7s. The XL battleships feel like proper capital ships.

[NightmareNight91]

Yeah x4 doesnt have true destroyers to me, just m7 frigates. I hope we can see some more ship classes and variety added in the future. I also am still hopeful for a buff to turret gameplay as current turrets are quite boring and weak imo.

[dtpsprt]

Back when the game first released it was stated that egosoft wanted capital ships to be fun, that nobody wanted to pilot slow capital ships, and at the time that meant giving them main guns and not relegating them to turret gameplay.
I personally think that main weapons on destroyers do not 'feel' good, they are fairly effective, but the sounds, mechanics and effects do not make them feel at all enjoyable to use. They are quite 'pew pewey'. To add this this, we have been putting up with issues with the AI's ability to use these main weapons since the games release and these problems are still plaguing in-sector gameplay to this day.
There is also zero variety or choice when it comes to destroyer main batteries. For me it is all very stale.
Egosoft, do you feel like this approach has been a success? Perhaps we may be reaching a time where this can be revisited? Forum-goers, what do you think?

Back before the game was released we were promised a "good return" to X Universe principles as the X Rebirth debackle was unfolding... Upon release it was well obvious that Egosoft's weight and intent was and is on the economy side making X4 more a spreadsheet simulation than a space one. What are you complaining about? These things that you ask of are very good in space sims, albeit X4 is not one.
Revisited? They are trying endlessly to fix existing bugs and bugs that present themselves from fixing the previous bugs... Then, economy wise, for Egosoft to survive they have to bring new DLC's at a fast pace because bug fixing is not going to bring any new money over...
A good idea of what revisitng is we've got with Farnham's Legacy... run by the gamers, most obviously to shut the space sim fans up and give them something to play without any time dedicated from Egosoft until it became too obvious that they had to "translate" it for Linux, which they did to their merit... Still it's for free for the majority of it's users, while any income by selling X3 AP to new players so they can use X3 Farnahm's Legend is greatly diminished because it is 2 games behind the current one...

[dtpsprt]

Playing VRO with XR ship pack, L sized destroyers really do feel like X3 M7s. The XL battleships feel like proper capital ships.

And that's the whole point of the OP. One has to use a game changing mod and a mod that introduces ships from a previous game!!!

What is the role of the vanilla?

[builder680]

New x4 player coming from over 1k hours in x3 and I agree after a few days in. Game needs more ships, more weapons, more niches. Where are the Griffon "pocket" carriers especially? More corvette and frigate variety and roles, specialized classes of destroyer and higher class of ship? I guess you can change loadouts and make things work but the current classes of ships is just too few imo.

Edit to add: I'm still loving the game! Very happy to have bought it

Also edited to add: I much preferred the x3 ship models. Something about the size of x4 ships just feels "off." A 15 story-tall M5 equivalent scout (terran rapier, for example), is just bizarre. A scout should be almost all engines and otherwise probe-sized, just barely able to house a pilot. What's at the top of the ship, a space-Starbuck's? It only grows from there. A Katana corvette (M6 equivalent, old "Vidar" sized I would think), is basically the size of an old M0 Argon carrier that carried like 60 fighters. For what... 2 turrets and 4 forward guns? Doesn't feel "right," model-size wise.

[adeine]

I'd rather they didn't have them.

In X3 capital ship combat felt very different to smaller ships because it was all about spatial awareness, manoeuvring for turret coverage and evasion and picking the right loadout for the situation. Having main batteries means flying destroyers is now basically like flying slow and large fighters, since not facing your target at all times means giving up a lot of your damage output. The XL beam even though also front facing is actually a welcome exception to this since it doesn't aim whatsoever; it's an intentionally awkward to line up super weapon, which does feel distinct (it also has an incredibly long charge time, so you don't have to stay facing your target/s all the time).

In my opinion there's better ways to make flying large ships more interesting. Ideally gameplay should give the impression that having crew actually does something, so for instance you could have a command console/shortcuts giving you more granular control over turrets and other systems, such as:

- Defining turret groups and being able to individually target and/or switch modes on them (such as switching to missile defence against incoming gunships, focusing on specific subsystems against enemy capitals, etc.)
- Having hot pluggable turrets a la MARS, except that it's an actual gameplay mechanic where you can tell your engineering crew to swap turret loadout. This would make battles more tactical since swapping equipment takes time (related to crew skill?) and what equipment you bring can be more specialised rather than one size fits all being the best choice.
- Implementing a system of reactor energy and shield redirection a la Freespace/other space sims. Being able to divert energy into shields (and better yet, between quadrants of shields), engines or weapons, and having to worry about turret energy consumption as we did in X3
- Making damage sustained more interesting and reactive. Right now there is zero feedback to anything on your ship getting damaged other than suddenly realising you can't move anymore (and it's because your engines are dead and not because you're stuck on a drone or enemy ship). Have crew yell out ship status and give you warning that your engines are about to go, etc. Have more interesting system failure modes (faulty comms, faulty radar, reactor damage, partially failing systems, etc.). Make a capital ship about to explode feel like a capital ship about to explode - warning lights, sparks, emergency lighting, rolling blackouts, crew running about like headless chickens, etc.

[mr.WHO]

IMO X4 destroyers are spiritual successors of M7 frigates, so it makes sence to have tham main guns.
If someone want turret heavy, you always got Syn.


The only thing that is tedious for me is the need to constantly hold the fire button - I wish we could have some kind of auto-fire command like turrets.

[Raevyan]

Playing VRO with XR ship pack, L sized destroyers really do feel like X3 M7s. The XL battleships feel like proper capital ships.

And that's the whole point of the OP. One has to use a game changing mod and a mod that introduces ships from a previous game!!!

What is the role of the vanilla?

Beta testing.

[S!rAssassin]

I’d like turret main guns. Just like real warships of WWII. Place 4 ore 6 main caliber on ship, make them possible to fire at one target at time then ship cruise around it = real firepower of destroyer!

Not this “pew-pew”...

[capitalduty]

I like main weapons on "destroyers" but agreed this class is right now more a X3 M7 class frigate... For real big guns, turreted ships Cruisers/battleships are the way to go and we need more of those for sure!

[GCU Grey Area]

For real big guns, turreted ships Cruisers/battleships are the way to go and we need more of those for sure!

Not so sure about that myself. One notable difference in how I play X4 is that, as a consequence of smaller, less well armed capitals, I'm using a lot more of them.

In X3, on the few occasions when I bothered with capital ships, I only ever used one of them at a time. That was always more than enough & was pretty much invulnerable to whatever the game would throw at me. No point taking more than one when a single capital ship was already overkill for most tasks.

In contrast, in X4 I'll use an entire fleet to do the same job, generally 5-10 destroyers, along with a carrier full of fighters & (unless playing as a Terran) an auxiliary for repairs & resupply. Been having way more fun with my X4 fleets than I ever did with X3 capitals.

[dtpsprt]

For real big guns, turreted ships Cruisers/battleships are the way to go and we need more of those for sure!

Not so sure about that myself. One notable difference in how I play X4 is that, as a consequence of smaller, less well armed capitals, I'm using a lot more of them.

In X3, on the few occasions when I bothered with capital ships, I only ever used one of them at a time. That was always more than enough & was pretty much invulnerable to whatever the game would throw at me. No point taking more than one when a single capital ship was already overkill for most tasks.

In contrast, in X4 I'll use an entire fleet to do the same job, generally 5-10 destroyers, along with a carrier full of fighters & (unless playing as a Terran) an auxiliary for repairs & resupply. Been having way more fun with my X4 fleets than I ever did with X3 capitals.

It all has to do with the watering down of the term "Capital Ship". By definition is a lumbering hulk so much armored and defended that is almost impervious to anything and with devastating firepower. The only ship that nearly comes to that is the Asgard. The rest are, as noted, the M6-M7's of previous titles which would never go it alone at least in major battles... which is what is happening with X4 Destroyers... an S can take them down...

[Shuulo]

I feel that if Egosoft wants to stay with this idea its better to make destroyer weapons more diverse between factions and change their behavior from 'pew-pew' to 'WOOOP KDSHHHH WOOOP KDSHHHHH'

[GCU Grey Area]

It all has to do with the watering down of the term "Capital Ship". By definition is a lumbering hulk so much armored and defended that is almost impervious to anything and with devastating firepower. The only ship that nearly comes to that is the Asgard. The rest are, as noted, the M6-M7's of previous titles which would never go it alone at least in major battles... which is what is happening with X4 Destroyers... an S can take them down...

You're probably right, however the key thing for me is I'm having a lot more fun. That feeling in X3 of being impervious to everything, & having devastating firepower to lay waste to everything around me, just wasn't something I particularly enjoyed. Enemy ships might be exploding in droves all around me, but I just didn't involved in the fight. Was certainly never worried by anything as utterly inconsequential as fighters in X3. In contrast, in X4 whenever I'm flying a destroyer I'm always intensely aware that there might be one in the swarm armed with torps or heavy swarm (etc) that can nuke my engines before I even know they're there...

[dtpsprt]

It all has to do with the watering down of the term "Capital Ship". By definition is a lumbering hulk so much armored and defended that is almost impervious to anything and with devastating firepower. The only ship that nearly comes to that is the Asgard. The rest are, as noted, the M6-M7's of previous titles which would never go it alone at least in major battles... which is what is happening with X4 Destroyers... an S can take them down...

You're probably right, however the key thing for me is I'm having a lot more fun. That feeling in X3 of being impervious to everything, & having devastating firepower to lay waste to everything around me, just wasn't something I particularly enjoyed. Enemy ships might be exploding in droves all around me, but I just didn't involved in the fight. Was certainly never worried by anything as utterly inconsequential as fighters in X3. In contrast, in X4 whenever I'm flying a destroyer I'm always intensely aware that there might be one in the swarm armed with torps or heavy swarm (etc) that can nuke my engines before I even know they're there...

Like I said above... M6/M7... only not as manoeuvrable... Remember Acynonyx and how to escape back to normal space? Or the Hyperion... Even flying it back to finally learn that it's yours... Or Operation Final Fury? I can go on and on...

EDIT: Or getting your Kea?

[Loecus]

In my opinion they should add ships from x rebirth. After annoucing of beta 4.1 and being frustrated by mining bug i started again to play rebirth, and there is a lots of awesome ships, which shall be best to adding to factions after little lifting and then every faction should have same ammount of ships or at least every class of ships (talking about battleships ) they already used some ships from rebirth like drill. In my opinion fulmekron is made for argon battleship. I know there is some mods adding them into the game but i think this should be in vanilla version. Guys you made awesome job by creating ships(at least L and Xl) to rebirth, why dont use them in x4?