State of X4

[A2G]

Bought the game on release, as it's an X game, but outside of the PHQ missions, and general messing around, i didn't sink much time in, as in my opinion it needed more time in the oven. Not much of a problem, as it was expected. Fired up my save recently, and the purpose of this post is to say, you are knocking it out of the park Egososft. X4 is grand and beautiful. As one of the cockpit hardliners, Bridges are superb, though i would like to see more official rooms per ship There are many additions I would like to see, but overall the experience on offer is top notch, and not available in any other title.

To make a request, so this post serves a point rather than fandom. I would like to see a more user friendly fleet command UI, and ideally attached to a console on a Bridge.

Much thanks.

[A2G]

Now to my list of bad:

The AI in X4 is awful, as in including intelligence in the descriptor is an insult to toasters. For a single player game, this is a high crime. You had to turn off collision Egosoft, think about that for a second. Combination of terrible AI and models phasing through each other, because Egosoft can't implement efficient pathing means X4 gets a hard fail review. Is this a beta release? years after DLC for it has been sold?

The UI is a disaster. I've played all the X games, and UI has never been an Egosoft strongpoint, but it has gotten to a point in time where it should have been rectified by X4. It is understandable that a level of complexity is needed, and for long time players like myself, we can work through the wonky systems, as we have become egosoft proof. It doesn't stop it being awful, and it does act as a barrier to entry to new players. It's bad Egosoft, really bad.

Lots of balancing complaints, but one that immediately springs to mind is how ridiculously quick a crew repairs a destroyer hull. My hull went from 30% to 95% in about twenty minutes. That's a shield recharge in other games. It's absurd for any consequence of choice.

Currently it's a 5 out of 10 for me. The main plus points being it is a foundation for modders to make something of.

[Panos]

Now to my list of bad:

The AI in X4 is awful, as in including intelligence in the descriptor is an insult to toasters. For a single player game, this is a high crime. You had to turn off collision Egosoft, think about that for a second . Combination of terrible AI and models phasing through each other, because Egosoft can't implement efficient pathing means X4 gets a hard fail review. (a) Is this a beta release? years after DLC for it has been sold?

The UI is a disaster. I've played all the X games, and UI has never been an Egosoft strongpoint, but it has gotten to a point in time where it should have been rectified by X4. It is understandable that a level of complexity is needed, and for long time players like myself, we can work through the wonky systems, as we have become egosoft proof. It doesn't stop it being awful, and it does act as a barrier to entry to new players. It's bad Egosoft, really bad. (b)

Lots of balancing complaints, but one that immediately springs to mind is how ridiculously quick a crew repairs a destroyer hull. My hull went from 30% to 95% in about twenty minutes. That's a shield recharge in other games. It's absurd for any consequence of choice.

Currently it's a 5 out of 10 for me. The main plus points being it is a foundation for modders to make something of.

a) Where? Collision exists. When was removed?
b) X4 UI is the best one in the series and far easier for new players to get used to it.

c) You forget destroyers have repair drones. What you want? To spend 5-6 MONTHS for realistic destroyer repair timeframe?

Is a game for heaven sake. A game.
If you want realistic AI, then you should demand from Egosoft to develop it using Tensorflow but you will need 3x RTX3090 to use it MINIMUM. Considering how many agents are in game. Until then all AI in ALL games is scripted so do not expect something more. They have to run in lemon systems

[taztaz502]

Is a game for heaven sake. A game.
If you want realistic AI, then you should demand from Egosoft to develop it using Tensorflow but you will need 3x RTX3090 to use it MINIMUM. Considering how many agents are in game. Until then all AI in ALL games is scripted so do not expect something more. They have to run in lemon systems

Yeah it's a game and it's Ai is terrible.

No one wants "Realistic Ai" just immersive Ai that doesn't break the immersion by behaving like a bugged drone, Take the Terran pilot that follows you at the start of the Terran campaign as an example he's got great Ai during the time he follows you.

Spoiler

Show

Once he joins you, he turns crap like every other drone and can't even stay in formation.

Also a better graphics card isn't going to help you much to run more or better scripts, most of that is handled by CPU.

Personally i think the game is great right up until late game once you start using fleets etc it quickly kills your motivation to play unless you want to start a new game. i've got 1,300 hours spend, probably 30 of those were with a shipyard after that i just started a new save.

[MegaJohnny]

Do you have any specific points you don't like about the UI? To me it's a million miles ahead of any other game in the series.

[Panos]

Is a game for heaven sake. A game.
If you want realistic AI, then you should demand from Egosoft to develop it using Tensorflow but you will need 3x RTX3090 to use it MINIMUM. Considering how many agents are in game. Until then all AI in ALL games is scripted so do not expect something more. They have to run in lemon systems

Yeah it's a game and it's Ai is terrible.

No one wants "Realistic Ai" just immersive Ai that doesn't break the immersion by behaving like a bugged drone, Take the Terran pilot that follows you at the start of the Terran campaign as an example he's got great Ai during the time he follows you.

Spoiler

Show

Once he joins you, he turns crap like every other drone and can't even stay in formation.

Also a better graphics card isn't going to help you much to run more or better scripts, most of that is handled by CPU.

Personally i think the game is great right up until late game once you start using fleets etc it quickly kills your motivation to play unless you want to start a new game. i've got 1,300 hours spend, probably 30 of those were with a shipyard after that i just started a new save.

Seems you ask for clever AI without knowing what Tensorflow is and what I meant by the 3090 example.
These cards won't be for graphics but to process the AI deep learning ONLY.

As an AI designer and developer thought what it would take to develop proper AI for this game for every single agent.
The amount of computing power is ridiculous even if is pretty dumb one.

[Ragnos28]

Do you have any specific points you don't like about the UI? To me it's a million miles ahead of any other game in the series.

I don't know about the OP, but I would like to give an example.

The fact that we dont't have a mass equip command and I will have to order 100 Chimera, one by one, to go to an wharf or EQ dock to restock missiles, can be interpreted as a confirmation that the UI in the game is not exactly optimal?

[Ragnos28]

As an AI designer and developer thought what it would take to develop proper AI for this game for every single agent.
The amount of computing power is ridiculous even if is pretty dumb one.

I wonder how much computing power would be required for the AI to not send vessels that have long range weapons, like destroyers and torpedo boats, to "hug" hard targets and get themselfs blow up in the process

[flatbush71]

I think its doing just fine.
Every build is better

[MegaJohnny]

I don't know about the OP, but I would like to give an example.

The fact that we dont't have a mass equip command and I will have to order 100 Chimera, one by one, to go to an wharf or EQ dock to restock missiles, can be interpreted as a confirmation that the UI in the game is not exactly optimal?

I don't think that writes off the whole UI, but you've got a point there. Batch equip is sorely missed towards the endgame.

[Ragnos28]

I think its doing just fine.
Every build is better

Mhhh...I would not be so sure. Let's take 3.10 and 4.00 as an example.

There is a reason for which many, myself included, had ask, rather hopefully, if Coh could be played with 3.10.

I hate 4.00 with a passion for the efect it had on the Xenon, turning them from a reapper level threat to the universe foot stool they are now.

[Zloth2]

The fact that we dont't have a mass equip command and I will have to order 100 Chimera, one by one, to go to an wharf or EQ dock to restock missiles, can be interpreted as a confirmation that the UI in the game is not exactly optimal?

?? That's not a UI problem, that's a wanted feature not existing problem, isn't it? When somebody says they don't like the UI, I start thinking about whether they should be using radial menus instead of rectangles and things like that. It's not the UI's fault if there's nothing in the game for the user to interface with!

[Panos]

As an AI designer and developer thought what it would take to develop proper AI for this game for every single agent.
The amount of computing power is ridiculous even if is pretty dumb one.

I wonder how much computing power would be required for the AI to not send vessels that have long range weapons, like destroyers and torpedo boats, to "hug" hard targets and get themselfs blow up in the process

a) You know fully well this was a bug fixed with 4.1 Beta 6.

b) X4 uses scripts. When studied them understood more or less how the capital ships work. Make sure the pilot is not a noob, has full service crew of as high skill as the pilot, is in fleet with a better commander than him in formation ( anything but circle) and arrange the guns properly. Any gun with shorter range than the main guns should be on anything but Defend and Attack my current Enemy. Same applies to the drones if you use them.

With that in mind I cleaned up 4 XEN sectors for the YAK mission, without even thinking about it. Had the odd Osaka kamikaze the stations, but that is down to the RNG on selecting quadrant.

[Ragnos28]

a) You know fully well this was a bug fixed with 4.1 Beta 6.

b) X4 uses scripts. When studied them understood more or less how the capital ships work. Make sure the pilot is not a noob, has full service crew of as high skill as the pilot, is in fleet with a better commander than him in formation ( anything but circle) and arrange the guns properly. Any gun with shorter range than the main guns should be on anything but Defend and Attack my current Enemy. Same applies to the drones if you use them.

With that in mind I cleaned up 4 XEN sectors for the YAK mission, without even thinking about it. Had the odd Osaka kamikaze the stations, but that is down to the RNG on selecting quadrant.

So..

a) Torpedo boats wil no longer do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgP082ojnY&t=37s
If is true, that is good news. Would love to see some footage of that.

b) Hmm...those are alot of things to click in to place just to have destroyers display a behavior that should be somewhat standard for 3 stars pilots and above. I get the pilots stars one, but now I must have also 5 stars service crew as well?
Ahh, not sure what influence service crew plays in PILOTING, namelly how far a destroyer should position himself from a station that is ordered to atack, but if you say it it must be true

I made a point to have 4 stars at mininum, 5 if posible to my destroyers and they are still derpy. Behaviors like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXuMtHTlpcA&t=2s are an exception, not the rule. Even here, one 5 stars captain almost bite the dust, luckly, the flee command worked and the captain did not interpreted it as "accelerate toward the threat as fast as you can" as usually happens.

I'm glad you had such positive experience with destroyers when ordered to atack stations, but my personal experience is somewhat diferent...more often than not, I save, order the destroyers to atack the station, have a good laught as they got blown up by the red dots they love so much, reload, order the destroyers to go the fluff away and just buzz the modules away with my Asgard.

I do have a question tho...can I provide a save file from the moment I order the destroyers to atack, from the video..and ask...this is what I want the script to do...make destroyers do this?

[Panos]

a) You know fully well this was a bug fixed with 4.1 Beta 6.

b) X4 uses scripts. When studied them understood more or less how the capital ships work. Make sure the pilot is not a noob, has full service crew of as high skill as the pilot, is in fleet with a better commander than him in formation ( anything but circle) and arrange the guns properly. Any gun with shorter range than the main guns should be on anything but Defend and Attack my current Enemy. Same applies to the drones if you use them.

With that in mind I cleaned up 4 XEN sectors for the YAK mission, without even thinking about it. Had the odd Osaka kamikaze the stations, but that is down to the RNG on selecting quadrant.

So..

a) Torpedo boats wil no longer do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgP082ojnY&t=37s
If is true, that is good news. Would love to see some footage of that.

b) Hmm...those are alot of things to click in to place just to have destroyers display a behavior that should be somewhat standard for 3 stars pilots and above. I get the pilots stars one, but now I must have also 5 stars service crew as well?
Ahh, not sure what influence service crew plays in PILOTING, namelly how far a destroyer should position himself from a station that is ordered to atack, but if you say it it must be true

I made a point to have 4 stars at mininum, 5 if posible to my destroyers and they are still derpy. Behaviors like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXuMtHTlpcA&t=2s are an exception, not the rule. Even here, one 5 stars captain almost bite the dust, luckly, the flee command worked and the captain did not interpreted it as "accelerate toward the threat as fast as you can" as usually happens.

I'm glad you had such positive experience with destroyers when ordered to atack stations, but my personal experience is somewhat diferent...more often than not, I save, order the destroyers to atack the station, have a good laught as they got blown up by the red dots they love so much, reload, order the destroyers to go the fluff away and just buzz the modules away with my Asgard.

I do have a question tho...can I provide a save file from the moment I order the destroyers to atack, from the video..and ask...this is what I want the script to do...make destroyers do this?

Lets wait first for 4.1 to drop. Already has a lot of improvements in that front

[A2G]

The AI is garbage tier. I fully expected someone to come along (as they exist in every game forum) and spout inane nonsense about improving the AI would require super computers. Be grateful you have had the privilege to buy this master piece!
No the AI is shit, and it can be better. It needs to be better. I don't claim to know what "if" statements need to be added, but it needs a lot of them. Fleet command under an AI is a circus of stupid, and brings me on to the second point about the UI:

Because the AI is utterly useless, takes what it should do and then does the absolute opposite, the user needs an effective interface to stop it doing stupid shit. Egosoft loves their nested menus, they have done since day zero, and they need a paradigm shift in their thinking in this regard. To select a single ship in a fleet, requires 4 clicks, and a further right click to issue a command. Compound that with the commands you can then issue are crap in their utility. This is awful design, by selecting the Fleet command ship I should be able to issue commands to sub groups, such as >Cap ships>maintain distance. This one command would tell the dumb AI that you do not want it to crash its destroyers into the ****** target. The best interface to date for this is radial menus. How about Fleet> Halt. Absolutely no use for that command. How about Cap ships> Rear gaurd, for when you want to extract your Carrier. The list is numerous, and the interface does not exist. There's no excuse for it not to exist at this point in the series, and in game development. [Edit to add] What i would do for a "maintain formation" command. 5 star captain on the carrier in fleet command, given the attack order decides what he should do with his carrier is a drive by of the target and poop out his fighters while the destroyers waddle along behind him the slower, and command vehicle. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Why would the carrier even decide to move on the attack order, oh yeah, the AI.................... What is it with the destroyers doing some dumb dance around the station i have told them to destroy, and in doing so fly into the aggro range of other stations? How about park your ****** ass and shoot the thing where nobody can shoot you.

The rusty knights may now return to tell me i should play something else if i don't like it.

[Skeeter]

You really need to avoid if and else statements, there are other ways that are less taxing to do the same job. If and else, are very cpu taxing statements to use. Most try to avoid em if possible.

[Zloth2]

Radial menus have some problems:

1. They freak people out. OMG! It's not what I expected! I must be too dumb for this program! I can't handle the stressssss! Gamers need to deal with a new interface every time they get a new game, so hopefully this wouldn't be a big deal for X.

2. They're good for about a half dozen items in the inner circle - less if the menus have big names. You can get more on if you use icons, but then it starts getting cryptic. Menus for this game get pretty large so switching will take some real re-organizing. I'm not so sure you're going to end up with a good system. (Maybe make the ring bigger, then highlight whatever you're moving toward and let you click before you even get to the menu item? But what happens if the pointer is near the edge of the screen so the circle has to move to stay fully on screen?)

Radial menus, IMHO, should be getting a LOT more use than they have been getting but don't assume they are the way to go for all situations.

[jlehtone]

Radial menus have some problems:

How does one use them? I have HOTAS but no time to explore if anything is bound to the menu. I just reach for the keyboard to get rid of it ASAP (which is as soon as I'd like).

[A2G]

Radial menus have some problems:

How does one use them? I have HOTAS but no time to explore if anything is bound to the menu. I just reach for the keyboard to get rid of it ASAP (which is as soon as I'd like).

Radial menus have been used for forever in games, think of a quartered circle, you click on the unit, the circle opens, you then select the desired command, that command then could have sub commands which open. On a HOTAS there are lots of buttons which simulate a mouse which you could use.

The UI doesn't need to be radial but it has to be better than it is. What makes it worse is that fleet command is not active it's reactive because the AI is so ****** stupid you spend your time correcting it's idiocy, rather than actively commanding it to achieve the desired goal. So you have some of the worst AI in gaming, being managed by a bad UI.

Set the AI a simple task, say "Alpha group Attack station". Alpha group (Destroyers) will take a simple command and shit itself. You spend your time saving alpha group. With a command structure and UI that is incapable of doing so efficiently, so you have players using micro "fly and wait" commands, with Pauses. I mean jesus they may as well make it turn based, it's how it is played anyway. It's beyond bad.