[Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

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ZodiacExplorer
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[Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:08

Some of the game mechanics and elements had seen significant improvements and I feel like developers deserve a praise for those.

I like the economy in this game over the previous ones. In previous games shipyards would just spawn ships out of thin air, in this game shipyards spend resources to build ships. The resources being harvested and processed are actually used on building ships, stations, weapons, engines. Also the game avoids the complexity of having specific stations building specific weapons/missiles, here a shipyard/warf just needs blueprint and resources to build anything.
UI is improved, I'd like to have shortcuts and ability to place waypoints on the vertical plane... still it feels like an improvement.
Even with those bad character models having interiors for ships and stations feel great, it adds to the soul of the game. Building these new modular stations is also a huge improvement over having to connect old stations with tubes.
Also ships being able to travel in "warp" is better then old SETA.

So the economy and building had been improved... but.

Fighting, exploring... well suck and the way one can play this game feels too limited.

Let's say I want to play like a pirate! I'm just going to be friendly with other pirate factions, every other faction is my target arrrrrr!!! It doesn't work, I can't build a ragtag fleet of captured ships because I can't transfer weapons between ships, I need a shipyard to arm those ships, and also to buy marines (or spend hours looking for individual marines on stations). So I need to be on friendly terms with another race. To top it off if I want to build my own shipyard for my own needs I need to have really friendly terms and spend a rather large sum of money on blueprints. I can't even reverse engineer ships and ship modules, I have to buy blueprints.
Since the only way to obtain blueprints is by having friendly relationships with other races and having huge sums of money it's almost mandatory to build up a producing/trading empire.
Other alternative playstyles are also not viable. In freelancer I made runs in which I had to travel through dangerous space to buy diamonds cheap and sell them expensive, there is no such thing in X4. Playing as a privateer is also not rewarding.
The game is simply balanced around about building producing/trading empire and lack of alternatives limits other ways of playing the game.

In combat we have addition of weapon heat, destructible modules, smaller ships being dragged, by bigger ships, EMP and regular bombs, way better boarding system. The boarding itself feels good, other then that combat falls flat. Warp drives are good for traveling through space however intercepting ships which travel at those speeds is not fun, and we lack any kind of system to make them drop out of warp. Xenon lack variety, they have a couple of small ships, then nothing, then two strong destroyers... I really miss fighting against old Xenon P's and Q's. Fighter combat is still OK, with better boarding mechanics, anything between fighter and destroyer feels meh, flying a destroyer is OK and commanding a fleet is bad.
Basically I spend a lot of time to be able to build a fleet and then... I just build the toughest ships I can and mix in some ships with anti-fighter capabilities, and combat revolves around trying to save those ships which AI decided to place in the harms way.

Exploring is... the universe pretty much just repeats itself, there is nothing interesting to find. I did find two destroyers in game however they were fully functional. In X3 I found damaged ships and had a thrill of my life trying to pull them out of Xenon systems.

I think that Egosoft has a lot of potential to make a wholesome space sandbox game in which players would find multiple aspects of the game fun and engaging, I am going to post some suggestions and hopefully some of them will find their way into X5. I do hope this studio continues to prosper and grow and get a bigger and wider playerbase.

Over and out.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24

The upcoming DLC will be about pirates, so I assume there will be masisve overhaul to pirate gameplay, even if you won't buy the DLC.

As for exploring - it's not much better in X3, it just has more sectors, so you can't remember all of them so easy as in X4.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 23:01

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24
The upcoming DLC will be about pirates, so I assume there will be massive overhaul to pirate gameplay, even if you won't buy the DLC.
Well let's wait and see.
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24
As for exploring - it's not much better in X3, it just has more sectors, so you can't remember all of them so easy as in X4.
While not ideal I liked exploring in X3 more, the number of sectors is not an issue, if anything X4 space feels larger to me (maybe because of SETA).

In my opinion X3 had a better map layout, there were pirate sectors which separated "civilized" space into three chunks, I had to use binoculars to zoom in and find jumpgates and stuff in the distance, and "atmosphere" in those sectors felt better... I can't really say why. In X4 I just click on map and have my ship discover things. Also in X3 I found an abandoned ship in Xeon sector, had to use my repair laser to get it to fly, then I used my own ship to drag Xenon away while my newly acquired ship made a run for it. In X4 I found a fully functioning destroyer and just flew through jumpgate with it.

If I can share my idea of fun exploration, it would be sectors in which we cannot use "warp" drives, sensor ranges are severely reduced, there are random storms which can damage our ships, xenon and khak presence... also ominous music :S .
So we have to depend on our eyes to spot possible loot, and loot can be used to upgrade our ship systems or we can send it for lots of credits.
Also there are abandoned ships within those systems, however they have damaged systems, so if we want to extract them from the system we have to drag the bigger ones with tractor beam, or use ship with carrier ability to load smaller ones into hangar.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Zloth2 » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 00:28

ZodiacExplorer wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 23:01
If I can share my idea of fun exploration, it would be sectors in which we cannot use "warp" drives, sensor ranges are severely reduced, there are random storms which can damage our ships, xenon and khak presence... also ominous music :S .
Actually, I think Rebirth might have done that best. One of the Teladi sectors comes to mind. Torride could get that way, too.

Not sure why you're worrying about abandoned ships. They seem like a small concern to me in all the X games. You're lucky to find two of them before you become rich enough that it doesn't really matter.

Edit: wait, you found TWO destroyers?? I only "found" one, and wouldn't have found that if I hadn't been guided. (It needed some serious love, too - shields were weak and I think only half the turrets had anything in them.)
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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Flippi » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:16

I agree with your points.

Especially the Blueprint hunting is infuriating. It's an unbelievable grind which you cannot skip. Yes, you can get a lot of Station blueprints. That's cool and all, but not really the problem here. The most expensive stations are Claytronics and the habitats. And a few others of course. The rest you can buy without a hassle. But the Equipment dock modules or ship production ones? Those are crazy expensive and can't be obtained otherwise. So all the hackable stuff is already somewhat easy to get anyway. And we better don't talk about ship equipment here. Especially the thrusters and engines are insanely expensive.

Same thing with piracy and fighting other species. I like Split ships and want their equipment. But I loathe the Split themselves and i want them gone completely. So, either i become friends with them to get their stuff. Or I don't bother with them and wipe them out without it. I find that unsatisfactory to be honest. And no, I don't like to be the backstabby kind of guy. I'd like to get options to obtain their blueprints without having to become their hero. Being able to find blueprints by exploring would be a solution. Or gaining them through the black market or by using Marines to steal them could work. But as it stands now, it's just a grind for endless money.
Warp drives are good for traveling through space however intercepting ships which travel at those speeds is not fun, and we lack any kind of system to make them drop out of warp.
EMP missiles should work. I haven't tested them yet, but from what I have looked up, they should be able to get ships out of travel drive. Not the best solution though. An interdictor type of equipment piece would be more useful in my opinion.

Overall, I like a lot of aspects in X4. But I don't like the rather lackluster options. Not only when it comes to playstyle, as you have already noted. But also in terms of content and gameplay. You really don't have a lot of options with ship equipment. There's a good weapon selection, but far away from what older X players might be used to. And it really hurts that there aren't many different combat ships in the game to choose from. In terms of fighters there are of course options, but once you start looking into M sized ships and above, things change quite a bit. There are more freighters and miners than combat vessels. Even though a few more options are desperately needed.

When it comes to modding, I keep it short. Things aren't looking too good here either. As someone who modded in X3, it's quite a pain trying to get into X4 modding. Especially mapping, which I liked in the older games, is now much more painful. Because Notepad++ isn't an actual galaxy editor of any kind (but the only thing we have right now according to the few tutorials I found).
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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Erqco » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:25

I am shooting ships that are warping to stop them all the time. One shot and warp is gone. Boosting with a Katana modded.

ZodiacExplorer
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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 03:45

Flippi wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:16
Especially the Blueprint hunting is infuriating. It's an unbelievable grind which you cannot skip. Yes, you can get a lot of Station blueprints. That's cool and all, but not really the problem here. The most expensive stations are Claytronics and the habitats. And a few others of course. The rest you can buy without a hassle. But the Equipment dock modules or ship production ones? Those are crazy expensive and can't be obtained otherwise. So all the hackable stuff is already somewhat easy to get anyway. And we better don't talk about ship equipment here. Especially the thrusters and engines are insanely expensive.

Same thing with piracy and fighting other species. I like Split ships and want their equipment. But I loathe the Split themselves and i want them gone completely. So, either i become friends with them to get their stuff. Or I don't bother with them and wipe them out without it. I find that unsatisfactory to be honest. And no, I don't like to be the backstabby kind of guy. I'd like to get options to obtain their blueprints without having to become their hero. Being able to find blueprints by exploring would be a solution. Or gaining them through the black market or by using Marines to steal them could work. But as it stands now, it's just a grind for endless money.

It just feels so limited. I don't feel like playing every time as a CEO of giant space company. I want to... board enemy shipyard with 500 of my best least expendable marines, steal blueprints by hacking scanning, steal enemy ships get blueprints from them... even if it means having to capture several ships. Chop down captured ships into resources.
Flippi wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:16
EMP missiles should work. I haven't tested them yet, but from what I have looked up, they should be able to get ships out of travel drive. Not the best solution though. An interdictor type of equipment piece would be more useful in my opinion.

Overall, I like a lot of aspects in X4. But I don't like the rather lackluster options. Not only when it comes to playstyle, as you have already noted. But also in terms of content and gameplay. You really don't have a lot of options with ship equipment. There's a good weapon selection, but far away from what older X players might be used to. And it really hurts that there aren't many different combat ships in the game to choose from. In terms of fighters there are of course options, but once you start looking into M sized ships and above, things change quite a bit. There are more freighters and miners than combat vessels. Even though a few more options are desperately needed.

When it comes to modding, I keep it short. Things aren't looking too good here either. As someone who modded in X3, it's quite a pain trying to get into X4 modding. Especially mapping, which I liked in the older games, is now much more painful. Because Notepad++ isn't an actual galaxy editor of any kind (but the only thing we have right now according to the few tutorials I found).

I fully agree, I just didn't want to go too deep into the details. We can equip different engines, shields and cannons on ships, but why can't I equip additional equipment such as better radar, ECM, special weapon, warp intedictor... the list goes on. X3 had a larger more varied selection of ships, and I had much more interesting fleets. In X4 I have a brute force fleet composed of same destroyers and one small fleet for raiding Xenon miners and that's it. There is a serious lack of depth in combat.

I was wondering why X4 modding is so lackluster in comparison to huge number variety of mods in X3, now I understand.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 03:55

Zloth2 wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 00:28
ZodiacExplorer wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 23:01
If I can share my idea of fun exploration, it would be sectors in which we cannot use "warp" drives, sensor ranges are severely reduced, there are random storms which can damage our ships, xenon and khak presence... also ominous music :S .
Actually, I think Rebirth might have done that best. One of the Teladi sectors comes to mind. Torride could get that way, too.

Not sure why you're worrying about abandoned ships. They seem like a small concern to me in all the X games. You're lucky to find two of them before you become rich enough that it doesn't really matter.

Edit: wait, you found TWO destroyers?? I only "found" one, and wouldn't have found that if I hadn't been guided. (It needed some serious love, too - shields were weak and I think only half the turrets had anything in them.)
I totally forgot about Rebirth. I bought it but my PC at the time wasn't powerful enough to run it at semi-decent framerate. Well time to install it again.

It's all about playing the game in alternative ways. Sure I can get rich and friendly with races and just buy anything I need, but we also engage in piracy to obtain ships we want :pirat: , obtaining a ship from deep within hostile territory also feels rewarding.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 10:49

ZodiacExplorer wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:08
Let's say I want to play like a pirate! I'm just going to be friendly with other pirate factions,
One more thing - Pirate DLC is at least a few months from release (my bet is either Christmass or Q1 2022).

However tha latest upcoming path 4.10, that is already in beta might help you making proper pirate gamestart.

The 4.10 will allow so called "Custom Game start", where you can configure many things for your starting character.




If you want to be a fully independent pirate:
- give yourself a few pirate ships with marines.
- add blueprints that you normally would not be able to obtain as pirate (Shipyard/wharf/equipment dock).
- add blueprints for ship equipment (e.g. engines, thrusters, weapons).
- set friendly relations with pirate factions.
- possibly add yourself a small equipment dock to be able to salvage/configure captured ships.


Done - you have a basic pirate start that can keep you interested till Pirate DLC will be released.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by jlehtone » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 13:31

Flippi wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:16
EMP missiles should work. I haven't tested them yet, but from what I have looked up, they should be able to get ships out of travel drive.
EMP missiles are very fast and have range of about 20 km. When they do hit, the target can neither boost nor charge Traveldrive for a while.
I have not used them, but I have been bombarded with them.


Is it logical for Pirates to build ships? Capture/board and repair, yes. Refit ships, yes. Build, not so sure.
That of course means that Pirates need access to repair facilities and equipment specs ...
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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 13:59

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 13:31
Is it logical for Pirates to build ships? Capture/board and repair, yes. Refit ships, yes. Build, not so sure.
That of course means that Pirates need access to repair facilities and equipment specs ...
I dunno if SCA spawn out of thin air, but it seem Split Fallen Families build their ships at Free Families shipyards.
Yaki have thier own station as well as Duke Bucanners if you follow Paranid war plot.


I hope that incoming Pirate DLC will bring back classic X3 pirate clans with their own territory, ships and stations.
Given current DLC logic, we should expect two major Pirate clans and one small one (Split DLC had ZYA, FRF and FAF. Terrran had TER, PIO and YAK).

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Lord Dakier » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:16

mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24
The upcoming DLC will be about pirates, so I assume there will be masisve overhaul to pirate gameplay, even if you won't buy the DLC.
Where was this info given? Haven't seen it.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:30

Lord Dakier wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:16
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24
The upcoming DLC will be about pirates, so I assume there will be masisve overhaul to pirate gameplay, even if you won't buy the DLC.
Where was this info given? Haven't seen it.
A link to German goverment site where Egosoft received grant for making a DLC (similar grant was done for Terran DLC):
https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artik ... -ahoy.html

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Lord Dakier » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:37

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:30
Lord Dakier wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:16
mr.WHO wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:24
The upcoming DLC will be about pirates, so I assume there will be masisve overhaul to pirate gameplay, even if you won't buy the DLC.
Where was this info given? Haven't seen it.
A link to German goverment site where Egosoft received grant for making a DLC (similar grant was done for Terran DLC):
https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artik ... -ahoy.html
Oh nice. Well that's certainly interesting! Hopefully see several across-board improvements.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Clownmug » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:45

It's kind of funny that X3 ends up having better exploration when they abandoned X:Rebirth's universe design just to cater to X3 players.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Lord Dakier » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:49

Clownmug wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:45
It's kind of funny that X3 ends up having better exploration when they abandoned X:Rebirth's universe design just to cater to X3 players.
It doesn't. Though that is subjective, I guess. X-Rebirth I thought was a mess, but I didn't (want to) play it much. X3's design was just what the tech and team at the time could offer. I think it was just very simple, but by todays standards too simple. I may not be keen on the layout of X4's design, but it's certainly better. I'd like the old sectors back personally with X4's hexagonal design.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Flippi » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 14:57

EMP missiles are very fast and have range of about 20 km. When they do hit, the target can neither boost nor charge Traveldrive for a while.
I have not used them, but I have been bombarded with them.
If the ingame stats are to be believed, EMP missiles have a top speed of 57.887 m/s with an effective range of 578km. Stat wise they look awesome. Their damage output is stated ingame with 0 MJ. So I guess any side effects are not listed in the ingame encyclopedia. Which is like in X3, where the Ion weapon side effect have not been stated anywhere. Or the area of effect weapons being much more effective as their stats on paper made them look like.
I fully agree, I just didn't want to go too deep into the details. We can equip different engines, shields and cannons on ships, but why can't I equip additional equipment such as better radar, ECM, special weapon, warp intedictor... the list goes on. X3 had a larger more varied selection of ships, and I had much more interesting fleets. In X4 I have a brute force fleet composed of same destroyers and one small fleet for raiding Xenon miners and that's it. There is a serious lack of depth in combat.
I really feel limited in terms of capital ships. Destroyers feel more like the old M7 types than anything else. The Terran one is quite okay, as is the Oddy. But the other ones? They feel rather puny. Behemoth and Phoenix got nothing on the current top dogs. Except maybe the price tag. Which is also something that is out of whack. The inconsistent prices between ships.
It's kind of funny that X3 ends up having better exploration when they abandoned X:Rebirth's universe design just to cater to X3 players.
X Rebirth's sectors sucked hard when the game was released. Egosoft then changed the layout with the first DLC to something the community wanted. And that was funnily enough closer to the older games than XR.
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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 15:19

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 10:49
ZodiacExplorer wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 22:08
Let's say I want to play like a pirate! I'm just going to be friendly with other pirate factions,
One more thing - Pirate DLC is at least a few months from release (my bet is either Christmass or Q1 2022).

However tha latest upcoming path 4.10, that is already in beta might help you making proper pirate gamestart.

The 4.10 will allow so called "Custom Game start", where you can configure many things for your starting character.




If you want to be a fully independent pirate:
- give yourself a few pirate ships with marines.
- add blueprints that you normally would not be able to obtain as pirate (Shipyard/wharf/equipment dock).
- add blueprints for ship equipment (e.g. engines, thrusters, weapons).
- set friendly relations with pirate factions.
- possibly add yourself a small equipment dock to be able to salvage/configure captured ships.


Done - you have a basic pirate start that can keep you interested till Pirate DLC will be released.
This would indeed be a nice workaround, can't wait for 4.10 to drop :)

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by ZodiacExplorer » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 15:30

jlehtone wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 13:31
Flippi wrote:
Fri, 6. Aug 21, 01:16
EMP missiles should work. I haven't tested them yet, but from what I have looked up, they should be able to get ships out of travel drive.
EMP missiles are very fast and have range of about 20 km. When they do hit, the target can neither boost nor charge Traveldrive for a while.
I have not used them, but I have been bombarded with them.


Is it logical for Pirates to build ships? Capture/board and repair, yes. Refit ships, yes. Build, not so sure.
That of course means that Pirates need access to repair facilities and equipment specs ...
Now I have to try out EMP missiles as well, and see if they work with defensive stations.

In X3 you could land ships on any station and swap out their shields and weapons, or land a fighter on bigger ship and load unload shields and weapons. That and repair laser made it possible to repair and refit captured ships from the start and build up a ragtag fleet.

As for building ships alternative ways of obtaining shipyard blueprints and blueprints in general would enable more flexibility in gameplay.

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Re: [Feedback] Quitting X4 Foundations and going back to X3 TC

Post by Flippi » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 15:37

In X3 you could land ships on any station and swap out their shields and weapons, or land a fighter on bigger ship and load unload shields and weapons. That and repair laser made it possible to repair and refit captured ships from the start and build up a ragtag fleet.
X4 has supply ships, which, from what I have seen, work similar to Equipment docks. I'm not sure if you can change weapons and shields using them, but you can definitely repair and rearm your ships with them. It's something I also have to check out soon.
As for building ships alternative ways of obtaining shipyard blueprints and blueprints in general would enable more flexibility in gameplay.
StarSector works in similar ways with blueprints. Except the player has to go out and explore the universe. And with some luck, a derelict research station or a ruined planet has good blueprints. Then you're off hauling all the loot back without getting visited by an angry mob of pirates, or 'redacted' ships (they're like Xenon).

Personally, I'd like to see several ways to obtain Blueprints. No matter if it's through exploration, combat, or black market stuff. Maybe even as mission rewards. I mean, you only get one paint mod per mission at best. So it might be an interesting thing to add a blueprint as reward for guild missions. Doesn't have to be ships though. Could also be just shields, or thrusters or engines. Stuff that is expensive as hell, but doesn't hand you an OP ship Blueprint.
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