(Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

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mr.WHO
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(Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07

Currently Terrans are extremely inflexible and limited in weapon choice across all areas.


Small/Medium ships weapons:
Pulse Laser - very good bullet speed making it very nice agains S-ships, but nothing else, additionally it's more expensive than normal Pulse.
Proton Barrage - good general purpose weapon, which good accuracy and effective against both S and M target, in numbers, also against larger ships. More expensive as well, but worth the price.
Meson Stream - first of all weapon is extremely expensive. While it provide wonderful DPS (like alpha strike Xenon P, while flying in Gladius), the weapon has very narrow gimbal which makes it extremely hard to hit anything, plus if you want to put them in NPC S/M ships you would need have them with 4/5 star pilots...otherwise you will mostly see them firing in the void, rather than into the target. The weapon would be a real fun...if would be able to reliably hit anything at all.

Give that Terran S/M ships have very limited weapon mounts (max 4), there is rarely any point in mounting anything else than Proton Barrage (you waste DPS mounting Pulse, and you waste DPS mounting Meson that rarely hit anything).


Missile launchers:
Terrans don't have access to Torpedo launchers (you can only buy blueprint and produce them from commonwealth). Therefore you're forced to use weaker missiles, or Meson Stream and both options are bad and micromanagement.
Overall Terran S/M ships are seems to be not made with missile compactibility in mind at all.


Medium Turrets:
Similary to S/M weapons, there is only a handfull of ships, that have enough medium turret mounts, to justify putting anything else than medium Bolt turrets - these are Jian, Osaka, Tokyo and Honshu.
Even then the all Medium Bolt turrets option seems to be the best one to choose. Terrans don't have medium Plasma turret analog.


Large Turrets:
Relatively best Terran category, providing most unique options and retaining most of other races analogues, with single exception - there is no analog to Large Plasma turret.


Deployables:
Terrans have absolutely nothing new in this regards :(. Yaki gets the cluster mine, yet Terrans get nothing?





Thus here are my suggestions, how to improve the situation:


1) Fix the Meson Stream - while overall ballance is OK, it's crucial that gimbal targetting angle must be wider, it's really unforgiving for player and near impossible for AI (BTW, same apply to Mass Driver and Boson Lance!).


2) Add unique Terran only S/M Torpedo Launcher that in incompactibile with vanilla Torpedo and can use two unique Light Terran torpedos:
- Light EMP torpedo - deals big dammage to shields, but nearly no dammage to hull.
- Light Singularity torpedo - deals big dammage to hull and surface elements, but struggle with shields.


3) Add Medium torpedo turret (compactibile with Terran ships only) that use above light torpedos to compensate the lack of Plasma analog.
- This would make Jian really fun and flexible ship with 6 customizable turrets and would provide additional options for Katana and Falx.
- Both Tokyo and Honshu could benefit even more as support torpedo ships as they have ample number of medium turret slots.
- the increase of firepower is compensated by the need to provide logistic, basically it would be like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLJTgvKFZoQ


4) Possibly fix Terran Medium Pulse turret, to have fast bullet. This would make it more competetive against Terran Medium Bolt.


5) Add Large torpedo turret (compactibile with Terran ships only), to compensate the lack of Plasma analog, this would be incombatibile with vanilla torpedo and use Terran specific Heavy torpedos:
- Heavy EMP torpedo - deals big dammage to shields, but nearly no dammage to hull.
- Heavy Singularity torpedo - deals big dammage to hull and surface elements, but struggle with shields.
- Heavy Black Hole torpedo - anti station torpedo with extended range, deals big dammage to both shields and hull, but is even slower than vanilla heavy torpedo - rather easy to intercept, so only use against target that has turrets destroyed or distracted.

This would allow Osaka, Syn and Asgard to get further into anti-ship specialisation, whiel sacrificing anti S/M capabilities. Would not be OP, cuz you need to provide logistic and heavy torpedos are expensive.


6) Add Large Flak turret (compactibile with Terran ships only):
Similar to unique Terran Large Bolt, this would increase options of Terran ships that are already Large Turret Heavy - like Asgards, Syn and Osaka.
Comparing to Argon Medium Flak, it would provide lower rate of fire, but longer range and damage per salvo.
This would especially boost Syn and Asgard that have many singular Large turrets.


7) Bring back Terran Orbital laser from X3 FL:
https://roguey.co.uk/x3fl/ships/ship-370/

Medium-size, anti-ship laser tower, that need to be deployed from M-size dock.



Above changes would make Terrans more flexible, without making them either carbon copy of rest of the races or straight OP.

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Matthew94
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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Matthew94 » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:28

Just bring back shit that looks cool and get rid of pew-pew shit that does NOT look cool.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Buzz2005 » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:33

terran pulse and proton have wonderful sounds at least
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:37

Buzz2005 wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:33
terran pulse and proton have wonderful sounds at least
Terran Pulse has the same sound as Split Thermal Disintegrator.

Proton sounds great, along with Terran destroyer gun.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Buzz2005 » Sat, 24. Jul 21, 23:35

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:37
Buzz2005 wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 22:33
terran pulse and proton have wonderful sounds at least
Terran Pulse has the same sound as Split Thermal Disintegrator.

Proton sounds great, along with Terran destroyer gun.
Really? Never used those split guns, not cool It should have been unique sound
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by adeine » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 01:03

Crucially, Terrans have no access to any anti-fighter AoE damage (flak) and no access to artillery (L/M plasma). And yeah, the ATF beam is incredible and overpowered, but it can only go on one ship you aren't supposed to easily acquire.

This makes their loadout the worst of all factions by a long shot. The better pulse laser is nice, but it can't fill the missing roles. It's also a bit baffling because in X3 Terrans had excellent weapons to fill those roles which are now missing.

I get the feeling this is in part intentional, as the Terran economy is incredibly efficient compared to the Commonwealth one, and the ships are overall very good for their class (also, Asgard fleets). So I have a suspicion that if Terrans had access to a good loadout they would dominate even more as a faction than is already the case.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Dreez » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 02:39

What about PSP from x3 ?.

Personally i'd like to see PSP and IBL do a comeback, and i'd love to see Railguns for capitalship turrets.
(real railguns and not the pewpew rails from X3 ).
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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Imperial Good » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 03:55

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07
Pulse Laser - very good bullet speed making it very nice agains S-ships, but nothing else, additionally it's more expensive than normal Pulse.
Proton Barrage - good general purpose weapon, which good accuracy and effective against both S and M target, in numbers, also against larger ships. More expensive as well, but worth the price.
Although they cost more to buy, they are much easier for the player to make themselves as the Terran economy is very flat. As such the player can scale up and mass produce those weapons for quicker than non-Terran weapons which need a lot of complicated products.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07
Give that Terran S/M ships have very limited weapon mounts (max 4), there is rarely any point in mounting anything else than Proton Barrage (you waste DPS mounting Pulse, and you waste DPS mounting Meson that rarely hit anything).
Terran weapons are "high energy". All weapons of this class have much better than average heat management for their damage allowing sustained DPS much higher than other faction ships with a similar gun type. This is why Terran ships have so few gun mounts and why other faction ships cannot use these guns. This is why Proton Barrage is arguably the best S and M gun type for general use.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07
Terrans don't have access to Torpedo launchers (you can only buy blueprint and produce them from commonwealth). Therefore you're forced to use weaker missiles, or Meson Stream and both options are bad and micromanagement.
Overall Terran S/M ships are seems to be not made with missile compactibility in mind at all.
They are for anti-fighter mostly. If you want to kill something big and tough use a Terran L or XL. All of which are arguably the best in the game for their class.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07
Similary to S/M weapons, there is only a handfull of ships, that have enough medium turret mounts, to justify putting anything else than medium Bolt turrets - these are Jian, Osaka, Tokyo and Honshu.
Even then the all Medium Bolt turrets option seems to be the best one to choose. Terrans don't have medium Plasma turret analog.
It is my understanding that their bolt turrets are higher damage than the other factions, allowing them to sit between the best in class DPS of plasma and weak but accurate pule laser. Terran ships do not really rely on M turrets other than keeping S/M fighters busy since their main batteries are best in class for pure damage.
mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 24. Jul 21, 18:07
Relatively best Terran category, providing most unique options and retaining most of other races analogues, with single exception - there is no analog to Large Plasma turret.
Again, not really needed given that Terrans have really powerful main batteries.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by razor202 » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 05:59

I think Terran L/XL ships really need something like L class flak turret (SSC?), as their destroyers and battleships can hardly kill even 1 s/m ship.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Malchar » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 09:51

I m a bit perplex. You ask more for terran s destroyers and battleships, where other factions havent battleships at all, and most even havent decent destroyers.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 10:50

Imperial Good wrote:
Sun, 25. Jul 21, 03:55
reasons
Your argument is balance - that's not my point - my point is that there is absolutely no variety!
Bolts on S/M guns, Bolts on Medium turrets, Bolts on Large turret, oh and Destroyer weapons are just XL Bolt anyway.
One would wonder why they put a XL beam on Asgard, instead of huge Bolt :P

There in no point in having anything else - it's very boring.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 11:19

mr.WHO wrote:
Sun, 25. Jul 21, 10:50
Your argument is balance - that's not my point - my point is that there is absolutely no variety!
Bolts on S/M guns, Bolts on Medium turrets, Bolts on Large turret, oh and Destroyer weapons are just XL Bolt anyway.
One would wonder why they put a XL beam on Asgard, instead of huge Bolt :P

There in no point in having anything else - it's very boring.
They're good at Beams too. Terran L Beam turret is significantly better than any other faction's counterpart - I use it as my primary anti-fighter defence system on capitals. Absolutely adore the Meson beam myself (particularly it's M version), while Asgard's main beam is ludicrously powerful. Don't consider Terran weapons boring myself (they've got some of my favourites in the whole game), they're just highly specialised into Beams & Bolts. Gives the faction a bit of character, makes it distinctly different to the others.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by abisha1980 » Sun, 25. Jul 21, 15:58

you kidding right?

Terrans ships absolute smash anything in there path.
there is no other faction that preform better then Terrans at the moment.

if anything i think they need to nerf Terrans a little
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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by KextV8 » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 14:30

adeine wrote:
Sun, 25. Jul 21, 01:03
Crucially, Terrans have no access to any anti-fighter AoE damage (flak) and no access to artillery (L/M plasma).
They can mount all the commonwealth weapons too. So from a player perspective, Terran ships blow the pants off everything pretty much.

And as an AI faction, they seem to demolish everyone too, so they don't need it there either.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Raptor34 » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 17:26

L Bolt is great. It can do everything well enough.
Also its higher projectile speed is great while its spread means it hits fighters at range more effectively.
A tip I've learned is leave them on attack all, that way they auto-target subsystems.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by adeine » Mon, 26. Jul 21, 18:03

KextV8 wrote:
Mon, 26. Jul 21, 14:30
adeine wrote:
Sun, 25. Jul 21, 01:03
Crucially, Terrans have no access to any anti-fighter AoE damage (flak) and no access to artillery (L/M plasma).
They can mount all the commonwealth weapons too. So from a player perspective, Terran ships blow the pants off everything pretty much.

And as an AI faction, they seem to demolish everyone too, so they don't need it there either.
Yeah, like I said, that is why I think it's intentional. It still feels weird to have TER crippled this way when there is no precedent in earlier games, and means TER only playstyles are not a lot of fun or super viable if you need to rely on Commonwealth equipment and blueprints. Especially since said equipment uses an entirely different economy to build and maintain it.

I'd rather the balancing was done in a more natural way - whether by adding more complexity to the Terran economy (let's face it, the reason it's so incredibly efficient is because of how basic it is right now; it's ironically a nice touch how similar to playable Xenon it is) or by rebalancing ships. Then we could have a complete arsenal of TER loadouts without it breaking the game.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by sirprosik » Tue, 27. Jul 21, 03:33

More of anything variety is always good.

However with that said the Meson Stream weapons need much love. In both 4.0 release and 4.10 beta they are just not worth using/equip/firing. Tested
on a Gladius and could not even destroy a mine with either solo or 4 equip fired same time nothing. Was a waste of time. Compared to beam emitters and burst
ray they are pure garbage!!

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by GDS_dmitry » Mon, 16. Aug 21, 16:53

It's just another confirmation of how poorly the game was designed from the beginning, and how poorly the developers were able to implement weapon loadouts and options. The simplest example: the ship build menu at the shipyard allows you to implement a (varierty) choice of weapons for the main battery of destroyers in theory. But what do we end up with? Each destroyer in the game has only one unique for him armament (for main battery), which must still be equipped or installed (although there is no logic in this, because there are no other options for installation, why not to install this by default to ship hull and increase price correspondingly?). For example, give an ability to equip torpedo or missile tubes to destroyer main battery. It will be a very interesting main battery loadout and will justify the existence of menu selector for destroyer main battery on shipyard.

P.S. I don't really understand why everyone is so enthusiastic about the TER L Bolt turret, since it still has too low rate of fire (0.74 per second without mods) and damage on impact (461 mw) without ship mods. Let's say there is an Osaka armed with these two turrets at its top side. Each turret rarely fires, so it is problematic to destroy even one fighter in this way, because by the time the next salvo hits the fighter, it usually has time to restore its shield, and the turrets in X4 doesn't have enough accuracy, fire range or bullet speed to reliably hit fast moving targets (that's why I can't play unmodded game at all, after all I've built my own mod to increase weapon stats to make them more reliable). L turrets (except beam), even pulse, can't reliably hit targets at the limits of its maximum fire range. In 1-2 km they are good (partially). But then, they start to behave horribly. And yes, again, we have L turrets with... 4-6 km maximum fire range? Seriously ? Bad design (or balance?) decision, because ship AI try to get closer as possible and fire at each other, which become a mess in IS combat with many ships and glitches from ship textures going through each other.

I've found interesting observation: since I've modded weapon stats and maximum fire range, now I have far less problems with ship and station collisions in the middle of the battle. Apparently this is how it should have been done from the start in the game.
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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by Karmaticdamage » Mon, 16. Aug 21, 16:58

Why bother adding a bunch of new weapons when most of them are not used anyway. Look at split dlc weapons for example. Every new weapon that came with that expansion failed to out preform standard pulse lasers. Terran DLC at least added a better version of the pulse laser. All weapons and turrets need a rebalance as only a hand full are vastly superior choices to the others. Terrans could use some plasma cannons, L bolt is no sub for a L plasma turret. Beams are so bad right now, all beams of every type "except the asgard's super laser". A small pulse laser mk 1 does more dps then L beam turret currently.

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Re: (Suggestion) I think Terrans needs a bit more weapons

Post by GCU Grey Area » Mon, 16. Aug 21, 17:54

Karmaticdamage wrote:
Mon, 16. Aug 21, 16:58
L bolt is no sub for a L plasma turret.
It's far more versatile & accurate. By far the better turret as far as I'm concerned. L Plasma is only good against capitals & useless against anything smaller. In contrast L Bolt's good for pretty much any size ship - have even seen L Bolt turrets shoot down drones.

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